🚀 go-pugleaf

On Fri, 26 May 2000, Mark A Miles wrote:

> I was terribly disappointed to read on applying to register to attend
> Linux Expo 2000 that you "cannot accomodate Students". I feel that this is
> a very precarious position for you to maintain, since Computer Science
> students will be the Computer Scientists of the future. I would urge you
> to reconsider your position for future years and/or events.

I feel what Mark is saying is true. After all, if Computer Science
students can't get access to valuable information and contacts etc. how
are they going to convert from Windows? But seriously, going to an
exhibition such as this would beneficial to us and we felt cheated when we
found out we could not go. I hope that they seriously reconsider their
position as well.

Kate Ho

Kate Ho <klxh@dcs.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.3.94.1000526154357.6181A-100000@samphrey.dcs.ed.ac.uk...
>
> On Fri, 26 May 2000, Mark A Miles wrote:
>
> > I was terribly disappointed to read on applying to register to attend
> > Linux Expo 2000 that you "cannot accomodate Students". I feel that this
is
> > a very precarious position for you to maintain, since Computer Science
> > students will be the Computer Scientists of the future. I would urge you
> > to reconsider your position for future years and/or events.
>
> I feel what Mark is saying is true. After all, if Computer Science
> students can't get access to valuable information and contacts etc. how
> are they going to convert from Windows? But seriously, going to an
> exhibition such as this would beneficial to us and we felt cheated when we
> found out we could not go. I hope that they seriously reconsider their
> position as well.

Of course students are allowed to go. It is simply that their attendance is
discouraged and certainly won't attract "student discount" if they did: the
expo is a commercial operation, and would discontinue rapidly were it to
turn into a spotty-youth fest, for which look at the PCW show and others of
the 1980s.

Now you could either indignantly bleat that you are (and I needed a sick bag
here) "Computer scientists of the future", or you could start practicing
some of the skills you will need in future, and get creative with the form.
Try lying. Or do you think that they'll send someone round to check? If you
honestly believe that you need to be there, then put yourself down as
something -- anything -- and go. Or stump up the public admissions fee. But
FFS get out of your ivory tower and quit thinking that students are special
cases.

Having said that, you'll find the most valuable -- and current --
information is available free on the web, especially in this field. As for
contacts, you'll find a good technical head start both within your school
and on usenet. I do agree expos are good though.
--
Alistair Mann

Alistair Mann (vianews@lgeezer.demon.co.uk) wrote:

: Now you could either indignantly bleat that you are (and I needed a sick bag
: here) "Computer scientists of the future", or you could start practicing
: some of the skills you will need in future, and get creative with the form.
: Try lying. Or do you think that they'll send someone round to check? If you
: honestly believe that you need to be there, then put yourself down as
: something -- anything -- and go. Or stump up the public admissions fee. But
: FFS get out of your ivory tower and quit thinking that students are special
: cases.

Here we have someone of the (self) righteous "pah, students, what do
they know about the real word" brigade. That might be true, but that
statement about "computer scientists of the future" still stands.

Students: you can love them or hate them, but you can't ignore them.

-- 

Angus

Angus Creech <creech@tardis.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8gm6ka$ee1$1@kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk...

> Here we have someone of the (self) righteous "pah, students, what do
> they know about the real word" brigade.  That might be true, but that
> statement about "computer scientists of the future" still stands.

It would be equally true to say students are "McDonalds' crew member
supervisors of the future". The difference between the one and the other is
the cause of too many goatees.
--
Alistair Mann

In article <959354457.6293.0.nnrp-10.c3adc064@news.demon.co.uk>, Alistair Mann (am) writes:

am> Of course students are allowed to go. It is simply that their attendance is
am> discouraged 

Now, let me think, what was Linus doing when he started to build a
certain well known operating system...

[looks like a suit-fest to me. Life is too short]

-- 
Mail me as rjc not spt@cstr.ed.ac.uk		_O_
						 |<

Richard Caley <spt@cstr.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:eyhbt1t46th.fsf@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk...
> In article <959354457.6293.0.nnrp-10.c3adc064@news.demon.co.uk>, Alistair
Mann (am) writes:
>
> am> Of course students are allowed to go. It is simply that their
attendance is
> am> discouraged
>
> Now, let me think, what was Linus doing when he started to build a
> certain well known operating system...

Not arguing with AT&T about whether they would 'accomodate' students is my
guess!
--
Alistair Mann

>Of course students are allowed to go. 

Ok, then why does it say that it cannot accomdate students then? mmm ....???!!!

>It is simply that their attendance is
>discouraged and certainly won't attract "student discount" if they did:

1. Why are we discouraged?
2. Not ALL students are up for freebies. I wouldn't mind paying �20 for a
ticket to go and see it. I'm not expecting any "special" treatment and I'll
seriously doubt that any other students would think the same. I simply want the
opportunity to go. I, to be honest, am expecting to be treated like dirt,
because I know that there are people like yourself which think students are a
waste of space. And I'm willing to put up with that for an experience to see
what the hype about Linux is all about.

>turn into a spotty-youth fest, for which look at the PCW

Really, now? Do you really think so?


>Try lying. Or do you think that they'll send someone round to check? If you
>honestly believe that you need to be there, then put yourself down as
>something -- anything -- and go. 

And if they find out, they won't chuck us out at all?

>Or stump up the public admissions fee. But
>FFS get out of your ivory tower and quit thinking that students are special
>cases.

Like I said, I don't think students are special cases. In fact, I'm sick and
tired of people who say we think we are "special". Cos we're not. And we
certainly don't think we are. I don't think I'm more "special" than any of my
other friends who did not go to university or even if they are on the dole.
All I'm saying is, if we don't get the chance to go then we are being
typecast before you "try us out". There's a word for that. It's stereotyping.
And as soon as society get rid of people who stereotype other people, the
better.


Kate

On Fri, 26 May 2000, Alistair Mann wrote:
>Angus Creech <creech@tardis.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:8gm6ka$ee1$1@kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk...
>
>> Here we have someone of the (self) righteous "pah, students, what do
>> they know about the real word" brigade.  That might be true, but that
>> statement about "computer scientists of the future" still stands.
>
>It would be equally true to say students are "McDonalds' crew member
>supervisors of the future". The difference between the one and the other is
>the cause of too many goatees.

I really do take offence to that. My initial complaint, I feel, was quite
valid. Who on earth, if they have the determination, is going to be a
McDonalds' employee when they graduate? Not me, if I work hard.

Mark

Mark A Miles

--++--++--++--
Mark Andrew Miles (UG 9900776) (CS1)
Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
maxm@dcs.ed.ac.uk (nine9@ukshells.co.uk)
WWW: http://www.nine9.ukshells.co.uk; ICQ: 41974841

"Any opinions expressed above are mine. The University can get its own."

E-mail with subject "get pgpkey" to obtain PGP key(s)

On Fri, 26 May 2000, Kate Ho wrote:

>>Try lying. Or do you think that they'll send someone round to check? If you
>>honestly believe that you need to be there, then put yourself down as
>>something -- anything -- and go. 
>
>And if they find out, they won't chuck us out at all?

Of course they would. Plus the University would be furious -- it would be a
blatant violation of the principles under which we are accepted to be students
here. 

Alistair, I really think your sentiment here is misplaced.

Mark


Mark A Miles

--++--++--++--
Mark Andrew Miles (UG 9900776) (CS1)
Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
maxm@dcs.ed.ac.uk (nine9@ukshells.co.uk)
WWW: http://www.nine9.ukshells.co.uk; ICQ: 41974841

"Any opinions expressed above are mine. The University can get its own."

E-mail with subject "get pgpkey" to obtain PGP key(s)

Kate Ho <klxh@dcs.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:959360195.2034028318@newshost.dcs.ed.ac.uk...
>
> >Of course students are allowed to go.
>
> Ok, then why does it say that it cannot accomdate students then?
> mmm ....???!!!

If you want to be literal, it's because they have no more hotel space!

> >It is simply that their attendance is
> >discouraged and certainly won't attract "student discount" if they did:
>
> 1. Why are we discouraged?

Because the expo is by definition a commercial venture, one that expects to
see Business Done and Palms Pressed. Not only do students not have the
capacity to authorise business purchases, but are also unlikely to be so
capable within a couple years. Wheeler Dealers -- the sort the expo makes
their money from -- do not want to be wheeler-dealing with students, ergo
they are discouraged.

Personnel staff may well want to see students, and be interested in meeting
some at the show. IWSTM that any student who is there when others are not
will have more time to put their best foot forward. That sounds like an
opportunity to me! Would you take it? Or stay away and argue with the show
staff about the terms under which that opportunity was presented?

> 2. Not ALL students are up for freebies. I wouldn't mind paying �20 for a
> ticket to go and see it. I'm not expecting any "special" treatment and
I'll
> seriously doubt that any other students would think the same. I simply
want the
> opportunity to go.

But you /have/ the opportunity to go as a regular member of the public, or
as whatever you claim to be on the enrolment form.

> I, to be honest, am expecting to be treated like dirt,
> because I know that there are people like yourself which think students
are a
> waste of space. And I'm willing to put up with that for an experience to
see
> what the hype about Linux is all about.

Hype there certainly will be. Truth may be a touch harder to find.

> >turn into a spotty-youth fest, for which look at the PCW
>
> Really, now? Do you really think so?

Yes, I was there, as student, member of the public, and "sales staff". After
a few years the place sold virtually nothing except floppy disks and furry
mice covers. It couldn't cover costs, and it closed. That was a great loss,
and it does not surprise me to see its successors try to avoid the same
fate.

> >Try lying. Or do you think that they'll send someone round to check? If
you
> >honestly believe that you need to be there, then put yourself down as
> >something -- anything -- and go.
>
> And if they find out, they won't chuck us out at all?

Are you intending to tell them? If not, why should they have any reason to
believe you are students?

> >Or stump up the public admissions fee. But
> >FFS get out of your ivory tower and quit thinking that students are
special
> >cases.
>
> Like I said, I don't think students are special cases. In fact, I'm sick
and
> tired of people who say we think we are "special". Cos we're not. And we
> certainly don't think we are.

So why should there be special arrangements to accomodate students, which is
what Mark originally asked for, and you agreed with?

> I don't think I'm more "special" than any of my
> other friends who did not go to university or even if they are on the
dole.
> All I'm saying is, if we don't get the chance to go then we are being
> typecast before you "try us out".  There's a word for that. It's
stereotyping.
> And as soon as society get rid of people who stereotype other people, the
> better.

Shush! Don't tell anyone in advertising that!
--
Alistair Mann

Mark Miles <maxm@dcs.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:959361852.608855370@newshost.dcs.ed.ac.uk...
> On Fri, 26 May 2000, Alistair Mann wrote:
> >Angus Creech <creech@tardis.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
> >news:8gm6ka$ee1$1@kane.dcs.ed.ac.uk...
> >
> >> Here we have someone of the (self) righteous "pah, students, what do
> >> they know about the real word" brigade.  That might be true, but that
> >> statement about "computer scientists of the future" still stands.
> >
> >It would be equally true to say students are "McDonalds' crew member
> >supervisors of the future". The difference between the one and the other
is
> >the cause of too many goatees.
>
> I really do take offence to that. My initial complaint, I feel, was quite
> valid.

My apologies then, but I think your complaint is invalid and you will be
politely thanked and sent on your way by the organisers.

> Who on earth, if they have the determination, is going to be a
> McDonalds' employee when they graduate? Not me, if I work hard.

Hard work will only get you an interview. Creativity and personality will
get you the job.
--
Alistair Mann

In article <959359363.20116.0.nnrp-06.c3adc064@news.demon.co.uk>, Alistair Mann (am) writes:


>> Now, let me think, what was Linus doing when he started to build a
>> certain well known operating system...

am> Not arguing with AT&T about whether they would 'accomodate'
am> students is my guess!

The nearest this comes to an interesting question isn't whether its
sane for a student to want to go. Seems clear to me the answer is
no. The question is why the organisers would want to discourage
students. Only answer which occurs is that they are trying to keep it
as vacuous as possible to encourage more undemanding people with
bigger expense budgets and smaller neuron counts. If you let in
students and similar one of them might ask a substantial question.

Consider their own description. They want `influencers and
decision-makers' (ie low level managers). They want to `Pinpoint focus
on the hottest subject in IT' (ie swap hot air). They are going to
have a `high profile media event' (managers don't drink enough so
bring in some journalists). They'll have `more than 30 FREE
briefings' (ie sales bods will bore you to death).

-- 
Mail me as rjc not spt@cstr.ed.ac.uk		_O_
						 |<

Mark Miles <maxm@dcs.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:959361996.1915677684@newshost.dcs.ed.ac.uk...
> On Fri, 26 May 2000, Kate Ho wrote:
>
> >>Try lying. Or do you think that they'll send someone round to check? If
you
> >>honestly believe that you need to be there, then put yourself down as
> >>something -- anything -- and go.
> >
> >And if they find out, they won't chuck us out at all?
>
> Of course they would.

So don't wear "I'm a student" on your tshirt. Duh! A thought just occured to
me ... do you /honestly/ think that it's actually illegal to supply false
details on those forms?

> Plus the University would be furious -- it would be a
> blatant violation of the principles under which we are accepted to be
students
> here.

Your university cannot prohibit you from attending public exhibitions as a
private citizen. There is zero or less benefit to you attending in the
capacity of a student as compared to that of a private citizen.

> Alistair, I really think your sentiment here is misplaced.

Sorry you think so. But I really think your sentiment here is wrong.
--
Alistair Mann

Richard Caley <spt@cstr.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:eyhaehd42gb.fsf@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk...
> In article <959359363.20116.0.nnrp-06.c3adc064@news.demon.co.uk>, Alistair
Mann (am) writes:

> >> Now, let me think, what was Linus doing when he started to build a
> >> certain well known operating system...
>
> am> Not arguing with AT&T about whether they would 'accomodate'
> am> students is my guess!
>
> The nearest this comes to an interesting question isn't whether its
> sane for a student to want to go. Seems clear to me the answer is
> no. The question is why the organisers would want to discourage
> students. Only answer which occurs is that they are trying to keep it
> as vacuous as possible to encourage more undemanding people with
> bigger expense budgets and smaller neuron counts. If you let in
> students and similar one of them might ask a substantial question.

Yes! They hate that :-)

> Consider their own description. They want `influencers and
> decision-makers' (ie low level managers). They want to `Pinpoint focus
> on the hottest subject in IT' (ie swap hot air). They are going to
> have a `high profile media event' (managers don't drink enough so
> bring in some journalists). They'll have `more than 30 FREE
> briefings' (ie sales bods will bore you to death).

So you will attend or not attend based on their description of what they are
wanting to run and who they want to attend? Thats a shame. You stay away
then, and the numerous Linux user groups including the London-based Lonix
user group, with its own stall and numerous student types (I know, I've met
some of them) will just have to weep into their glasses of plonk at the lack
of balls some students have! <g>
--
Alistair Mann

On Fri, 26 May 2000, Alistair Mann wrote:

> > Ok, then why does it say that it cannot accomdate students then?
> > mmm ....???!!!
> 
> If you want to be literal, it's because they have no more hotel space!

We didn't want hotel space.

> So why should there be special arrangements to accomodate students, which is
> what Mark originally asked for, and you agreed with?

I didn't. I just didn't like the way they said "we cannot accomodate
students". I didn't realise it had anything to do with hotels. The word
accomodate itself doesn't necessarily imply accomodation - it implies
whether or not they are willing to put up with us.

Mark A Miles

--++--++--++--
Mark Andrew Miles (UG 9900776) (CS1)
Division of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
maxm@dcs.ed.ac.uk (nine9@ukshells.co.uk)
WWW: http://www.nine9.ukshells.co.uk; ICQ: 41974841

"Any opinions expressed above are mine. The University can get its own."

E-mail with subject "get pgpkey" to obtain PGP key(s)