🚀 go-pugleaf

I like this guy, somebody who is not afraid to scream out "Where is He!
Where in the hell is the truth in all this!  Bud, I tell you this, God, who
by the way is there, likes your kind of people more than the ones who
publicly profess but secretly doubt and deny.

antitheist wrote:

> For those who missed it the first time:
>
> A message very similar to this one was sent in response to the frothings
> of John Lauzon on the hfx.general newsgroup approximately 3 weeks ago.
> As yet, there has been no satisfactory response, so I am broadening my
> scope and intent somewhat.  The results will speak for themselves.
>
> This message is, without qualification, in open challenge to every
> single system of belief in the world, in defiance of every conception of
> a deity, god, goddess, or ultimate spiritual being held by those
> religions.
>
> We are presently in the closing days of the 20th Century, or at least
> close enough for the popular imagination to have siezed on the idea.
> This is the time when, some systems of belief tell us, the world will
> likely end.  This has, of course, led to insanity for some, rapture for
> others, and general paranoia for most.

For the most part, the frothing and frenzy have been going on at the end of
every century since the beginning.  Be cautious, but don't be paranoid; or
go to some mountain top waiting for the end!

>
> Along the path to this point, we have endured many atrocities committed
> in the name of religion: Crusades, Inquisitions, Jihads; fasts and
> hunger strikes; self-torture, and the torture and executions of others;
> the deaths of children and the mass murder of ethnic or other religious
> groups.

Groups is the magic word here.  However there are only two groups in
Christianity;  the church external which is the creation of man, and the
church internal which is comprised of the those God has called out from
among those He didn't call.  All the atrocities have been perpetrated by the
nuts who run the church external, those who wouldn't recognize God if he
knocked them over in the street.  Jesus Christ NEVER told anyone to go out
and find the cup he drank from at the Last Supper, let alone to slaughter
innocent people who had a different belief.  Nor did He ever tell anyone to
round up the doubters and force a confession of faith from them by torture.
These acts are, as you said, done by religious groups.

>  Scientific and philosophic thought which aimed at truth in
> defiance of doctrines has been stifled and free will has been
> subverted.

>  The religion of any country has meddled in the political,
> economic and artistic lives of individuals with no better explanation
> than the mystic "will of god (or God, or gods)".  In the name of some
> undefined universal plan, we have allowed theft, censorship, subjugation
> and murder.
>
> No more.
>
> We are now at a point where, as individuals, we are able to decide for
> ourselves, based on our own reasoning, the nature of the universe and
> the beings who inhabit it, and our success as individuals will depend on
> the ultimate truth of those ideas.  We do not need the myths anymore; we
> do not need the symbols.  Yet, the religions and churches and doctrines
> refuse to let go.  The Christian Church is trying to invent itself for
> another millenium, to maintain its power base; the Buddhists continue to
> turn inward in ignorance of the reality that surrounds them, the earth
> religions dance in defiance of the fact that their cults died centuries
> ago, and the Satanists refuse to recognize their own adherence to
> Christian dogma by their refutation of it.  The list goes on.

You broad brush a lot of issues here without examining them.  We have never
been at the point nor will ever be, where we can decide the nature of the
universe.  By what absolute will we determine it. Scientific? Scientific
theories have come and gone for centuries.  Philosophic?  Same thing.  Great
existential theories have been put forward for years, only to have them
become "dead letters" by the next one.  Moral?  Who decides what morals all
of mankind is to live by? There are close to, if not more than 6 billion
living on this planet.  That means 6 billion sets of personal experiences
based on 6 billion sets of personal values.  Whose do we pick?

Unless you have absolutes in the universe you have chaos.  Literally.  An
axiom with respect to society is:  "When a society rejects its search for
absolutes, the society itself becomes the absolute."

>
>
> The only proof of the existence of an ultimate being is the existence of
> that being itself.

Not necessarily true.  What about evidence of said being?  You don't find
dinosaurs around anymore but you say they exist by the evidence they have
left.  You may not see a deer in the weeds, but you know one is around by
the footprints, broken branches, odour, or even the sound of crashing woods
as it runs away.

>  That is to say: a physical manifestation of a deity
> under conditions which can be explained by no other, more rational,
> terms.  To my knowledge, no such proof has ever been provided.  Any
> claimed evidence that exists does not exist beyond the shadow of a
> doubt,

> and as long as it remains under such a shadow, it is not
> acceptable as proof to any rational human being.

The term rational is subjective. Rational to who?  By what terms do you
define rational?  Are those terms acceptable to all people in all places at
all times?

That's what faith is all about.  In it's simplest definition, faith is an
action based on a belief and sustained by confidence.

>
>
> If, as humans, we are subject to the will of any kind of supreme being,
> it is in defiance of the nature of our existence (i.e. as rational
> creatures, for that is the trait which differentiates us from all other
> creatures)

You are subject to the will of the government of Canada aren't you? Is that
in defiance of the nature of your existence? No.  The government is made up
of creatures who come far short of any description of a deity, yet what they
say to do you do.

> to accept such will without proof of its existence.
> Therefore, in the closing days of this millenium, I call upon any deity
> which exists to provide proof of its existence, concrete proof which
> cannot be denied by any rational means, cannot be explained in any other
> way.

Who do you want the proof of existence shown to?  You?  Are you sure you
could recognize this proof if you saw it?  How would you recognize it?  Once
you do recognize it how would you know that what you saw or discovered was
was indeed proof or for that matter true?

>  Only such evidence can finally resolve all conflicts sparked by
> religion, and put an end to the struggles which hold us back from
> progression as human beings.  Only a lack of such evidence can provide
> evidence that such a deity or deities does not exist, and individuals
> can then be free to pursue their own rational ends without fear of the
> intervention of the lunatics and anti-life doctrinarians who try to
> propagate belief systems.

The word rational is a favourite one of yours isn't it?  But it is a
subjective term.  Find a more objective term to use in place of rational,
one that does not rely upon human assessment or judging, one that does not
require critical thinking but cold hard scientific assessment.

>
>
> I offer myself as a target for this proof.

You make the statement as to your own high sense of self importance here.
Are you an individual which has absolute control of your faculties, such
that if God gives you proof, you are able to, without bias and prejudice,
able to with cold scientific analysis assess such data?  Do you have perfect
control of the media such that if God shows you that He does exist, you are
able to report or cause to be reported this proof such that all are able to
see it?  Will those who see the irrefutable proof be able to, with the same
cold scientific analysis, come to the same conclusion as you?  You will
notice that in all of this I cannot avoid using subjective terms just like
you can't.  Why? because we are humans and therefore subjective.

>  I will gladly accept sole
> responsibility for the consequences of my challenge.  If there is a
> deity of love, let it show its love, and if there is a deity of hate, or
> war, or death, or any character whatever, let it show that character
> distinctly and directly without subtlety or subterfuge, and I will admit
> my error, loudly and publicly.  Otherwise, I will take the lack of
> action as proof of the non-existence of a deity, and will likewise
> proclaim such loudly and publicly.

How can God show irrefutable proof of His existence to a creature such as
you or I or anyone?  He can't.  Why?  because we are subjective in all we
do. We can only view the world through our senses.  Therefore, unless you
rid yourself of all elements of your humanity,  it is impossible.  And to
rid yourself of all elements of humanity is impossible.


>
>
> In addition, I provide an ultimatum: a deadline.  It is right now 13
> December, 1999.  The millenium, ostensibly, will end in 18 days.  If
> such proof as is required is not provided by that date, then the silence
> will reign as its own proof.
>
> So, there it is.  The clock is ticking.  What will the result be?
>
> I am posting this first and foremost for myself, to finally rid myself
> of the influence of all religious zealots who infect my world.
> Secondly, I do it for every rational person who agrees with these
> thoughts and is able to envision a clean, sane world unpolluted by
> unprovable mystical ideas.

To believe that you are important enough or "rational" enough for God to
show you irrefutable proof of His existence, this is an unprovable mystical
idea.  Another mystical idea that has never been proven is the "envisioning"
of a sane (sane to who?), clean world.  This, in and of itself,  sounds like
the foundations of a new religion, but then again, there is nothing new
under the sun.  It's just scientific rationalism.  Another dead letter
philosophy.

>
> This message will be posted to as many newsgroups as I deem relevent,
> and will be sent by email to as many religious factions and promoters as
> I can find.

Like I said, I like the fact that you are looking for the truth, and that
you want God to show you that truth.  I really hope you find it.