🚀 go-pugleaf

Elijah Pau wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:58:45 +0800, Majulah <Majulahh@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> So you are Jigong?  Or are you imposing?  8<)
> >Jigong and I are very good friends. We are like the Siamese twins. We know each
> >other's mind. You should have noticed that both of us post from Singapore.
> >
> Well, it's good to have such "friend", isn't it?  Very convenient, and
> makes one sound... er, how to put it?  Popular?

It is up to you to figure out what type of relationship we have, if you are interested.I
believe ' no man is an island'.  It is good to have very good friends, though it is hard
to find such friends. I will not bother to explain any further.

> >> >making wild claims about the strength of Xinjiang separatist movement and the
> >> >support o the movement would be very disappointed that his incident was not
> >> >carried out by Xinjiang separatists.
> >> >
> >> Really?  I don't know about the Xinjiang separatists very much, but
> >> I'm glad that we do not have another bunch of terrorists running amok.
> >> If they amount to nothing, then why is the Chinese government so
> >> worried?
> >
> >I never claim that they amount to nothing. pls. don't put words into my mouth.
> >
> So what is you view?  How serious are these people?  What is the
> extend of their "strength"?

We have to recognise the fact that in almost every nation on this planet, there are
minority races wiht different languages, customs and believes. It is a fact of live. To
insist that all these minorities should have their own nation so as to have 'self-rule'
is simply unrealistic and is not practical. However, there are some selfish and ignorant
people who think and fight along that line. In the case of Xinjiang, these people
constitute a small number. But it is a serious matter because these people are using
religions as their shields. Whenever religions are involved, people become blind easily
and lose their mind.

> >>  Although they did not seem to know how to handle this, they
> >> are smart enough to know how serious the matter is.
> >
> >China has been largely peaceful in the past 16 years even though many from the west
> >have been trying hard to stir up Tibet, Xinjiang ,Mongolian and Taiwan issues.
> >Compare this with Chechnya in Russia, Kashmir in India and Pakistan, Tamil Tigers
> >in Sri Lanka, the Moro in Southern Philippines, Muslims separatists in southern
> >Thailand, East Timor in Indonesia, etc. you can't deny that the Chinese leaders
> >have been handling the issues rather well.
> >
> North Korea has been "peaceful" for the last, say, 50 years?  What
> would you say about living in North Korea?

You can't compare N Korea with China.  N Korea has been practically under the same since
it started after W.W.II.

> I never hold the view that
> the Chinese government is the worst on this globe.  Most of the
> governments that you have quoted is or had been worse.  Any way, quite
> a number of what you quoted are more "struggles" between two
> neighbouring country (India and Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka,
> Indonesia(?) and Phillipines).

Not really. All these countries have their own problems which have not been solved or
improved with domocracy. The problems between nations is something experienced by many
other countries, including China, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore and Malaysia. such conflicts
are not the issue actually. The problems in these countries are largely internal.

> Finally, East Timor is annexed by
> Indonesia. If I were an East Timoran(?), I would find your example

> insulting.

You don't seem to understand the problem of East Timor. Perhaps you have been
brainwashed by the western media. East Timor was a colony of Portugal. As a colony,
Portugese exploited teh resources as well as the people there fuuly till there was
nothing left and the situation became out of control. The Portugese, as in the case of
other colonial masters, retreated 'gloriously' and left the people of East Timor to
fight their own civil war.

If you are aware of the situation in Afghanistan, you should be able to project the
seriousness of such a civil war. Indonesia had to step in to prevent the war from
escalating. Whether you think what Indonesia did was right or wrong is a different
matter. The fact is, if Indonesia did not step in, East Timor, or perhaps the whole of
Timor Island, would become anothe Afghanistan.

> They are definitely not "seperatist".  They are people
> fighting to restore their country.

There was no such country called 'East Timor' in the first place. There was only a
Portugues colony.

> The preferred examples to handling seperatism are: Canada and Quebec,
> UK and Scotland,

These are countries which have very different background compared with China.

> (UK and North Ireland is a bad example, but that
> problem was started a lot of years ago.)

So, where is the line ? 30 years ? 50 years ? 200 years ? or 1,000 years ? Who is to
draw the line ?

> Soviet Union and the Baltic
> States (a bit rough, but Gorby had taken it rather well.)

Again is not a good comparison for China.

> >What ever you may like to call the group is up to you (or who ever are involved).
> >The fact remains that there is no such place called "East Turkistan" in any world
> >map available in the market.
> >
> Well, who knows?  There was no such place called "People's Republic of
> China" 50 years ago.

 Well, nobody has the right crystal ball ! It is meaningless to predict such events in
future which is too far off.

>  I never said there is a place called "East
> Turkistan".  But come to think of it, there is indeed a group of
> people being called such at least since the Tang Dynasty.  Haven't you
> read your history book?

There was also a place called Beihai which is north of Mongolia, in Chinese history.
There was also a group ( or several groups ?) of natives living freely all over
Australia, New Zealand, and the whole of the American Continent. Are we going to move
back to such historical eras?

> >The fact also remains that the group o people referred to have claim publicly that
> >they were not involved in the incident.
> >
> I had no disagreement with that.  As I said, I'm glad that they were
> not involved.
>
> >> Hmm.  Bet you a lot of them couldn't read or write the language.  I
> >> don't find this funny, I find it sad.  Only that I am honest enough to
> >> admit that there is a problem here.
> >
> >There are about 1,300 millions Chinese world wide. About 1,000 millions of these
> >Chinese can read and write Chinese Language. It is still about 20 % of the world
> >population.
> >
> First of all, I seem to have come across official figures that are
> glimmer than yours.  To acquire the ability to read and write is a
> crucial aim for basic education.  My point is, education in our
> country had gone so bad that such skill is not as widely pocessed as
> it should be.  The government has been purposefully neglecting this
> aspect during Mao's time. and perhaps has not been able to do anything
> about it during Deng's early days.  Now that the country is more
> resourceful, what are being planned for education?  I haven't seen
> signs that the urgency is recognised by Beijing.

Let's look at the fact : literacy rate in Mainland-China is about 75 %.75 % of 1.3
billions is 0.975 billion.
In Taiwan, the literacy rate is higher. About 0.018 billion peopel there read and write
in Chinese Language.

In Hong Kong, the number is probably aroung 0.004 billion.
In Singaore, it is about 0.002 billion (Out of 0.0024 billions)
In Malaysia, it is about 0.003 billion (Out of 0.006 billion)
In Thailand ( there are about 10 millions Chinese) , Indonesia (There are about 5
millions Chinese) , the Philippines (about 1.5 millions Chinese) , Japan, Europe, North
America, Australia, New Zealand, etc, there are another probably 0.003 billion.

These figures add up to 1.005 billions

Pay some attention to development in China. You will find that it is not that bad as you
think.
Chinese students (from China) have consistantly performed well in international
competitions. As people become more wealthy, the number of illeterates will go down.

> >It is OK to have dreams and be aware that what you have are nothing more than
> >dreams. However, there are many people out there who try in one way or other to
> >'force' others to believe that their dreams are realities and that others must
> >accept their dreams as the only paths to success.For those who are blinded by such
> >claims, they will wake up ( or continue with the dreams?) with the shock of their
> >life, eventually.
> >
> Well then it is their problem.  So why waste time trying to wake them
> up?

If they continue to keep the dreams to themselves, it is perfectly O.K. with me.
However, many of them are NOT! Many of them have been trying to impose their dreams onto
others including China and the Chinese people.

> I may have different views from you, but I do recognize that you
> have the rights to hold your own views.  Would you beg to disagree on
> this?

I never doubt this point.

By the way , I never question the merit of democracy.
(Note : President Jiang Zemin also believes that without democracy, there can be no
progress)

What I have been questioning is the way it is being implemented. It is a fact that there
are too few success stories in Asia, Africa , Latin America and East Europe (including
Russia). I, like many others, can't help but conclude from these failures that
western-styled democracy is not the only way for China. Neither is it the best way.

> >I have long awaken from my dreams. I am a pragmatic person. I look at practical
> >examples, not theoretical ones, in deriving my conclusions. With this in mind, I
> >post facts about actual events and situations all over the world to support my
> >view/conclusion.
> >
> What I am trying to say is that your views (conclusion drawn form your
> choice of contents) are lopesided, bias by your "goal" to wake people
> up from their "dreams".  In that sense, you are slipping into another
> type of "dream" yourself.  I just ask that you be fair and accurate on
> your choice for presentation.

I have been trying to use such 'lopesided' reports to balance 'lopesided' reports
presented by those from the other extreme. My purpose of presenting these reports is to
support my arguments. For instance, many from the west claim that problem of corruption
in China would be solved if China embraced democracy right now. I posted some reports on
corruption in India, the Philippines, Russia, Thailand, etc. to support my point that
democracy is not the solution.

>  The bit about India as an example of
> democracy is totally unfair.

Not really. India is a very good example because its democray is modelled after Britain.
The constitution of India was drafted with the help and guidance of the British experts.
It had the system established by the British over more than a hundred years. Further
more, India is in many aspects similar to China. Large land area, large population,
multi-racial, multi-religious, etc. Both started as very poor countries after W.W.II.
And, India has tried out such a system of democracy for 51 years.

> >It is only those who continue to indulge in beautiful mirages would one day have
> >their dreams turned into nightmares!
> >
> Have you examine your "dreams"?  Don't tell me you don't have one.

Of course I have my dreams. Like many others, I used to be very pessimistic about China
and I used to think that Western-styled democracy was the only way out for China.
However, as I have mention earlier, there are simply too few success stories to convince
myself that my dream was right.

I have observed tremendous changes in the post-Mao era in China. My observation is that
the leaders believe in change to improve on the system as well as the whole nation. Many
Chinese people also agree that the present leadership consists of among the cream of the
Chinese. They are capable, well educated and pragmatic. They have also proven themselves
with tremendous growth in economy and other developments in China, as I have observed.

I  agree fully with the late Deng Xiaoping's  stand that a cat is a good cat regardless
of its colour, as long as it is good in catching and getting rid of mice.

I also agree fully with him that China has to find its own path to prosperity as nobody
has created any path for China to follow.

As long as the leaders believe in the necessity to change  for the better and work
towards that goal whole heartedly, I am confident that China is on the right path.

Interestingly, CCP used to be full of ideologies and propaganda. In the post-Mao era, I
observe that the west has actually played up more ideologies and propaganda than the
CCP. Western-sytled democracy has actually become more like a 'religion' to many people.

These are just my observations and my opinions. I have never had any intention to force
anyone to agree with me. However, I will continue to post facts to support my arguments.
In the case of those (especially westerners) who  try to force their ideologies down the
throat of the Chinese and to get China to agree to be the guinea pigs of their
ideologies, I will continue to debunk their 'dreams' and fantasies.

> (BTW, since this discussion has now been not directly related to the
> Tibet issue, I have set the follow-up to accordingly.  If you
> disagree, please feel free to set it.)

It is OK. with me.

* * Ideals without practice are merely dreams.* *