🚀 go-pugleaf

Leif Erikson wrote:
> Ragnarsghost@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Leif Erikson wrote:
> > > > >
> >
> > Do the research then flap your gums. Both the solstice and the sky are
> > based of GMs Kappa platform. This architecture has been around for some
> > time now in Europe in the form of the Opal speedster.
>
> Opel, not "opal".
>
>    Jeder Popel faehrt sein Opel
>
> Look it up.
>
> In any case, what you're saying is that as long as the 'murkan auto
> makers import their cars from abroad to sell in 'murka, they'll be good
> cars.  How exactly does that contradict what I've been saying?

Its not so much a matter of importation as it is a matter of shared
technology and parts. Car companies have been doing this on a domestic
scale for decades the only difference is, now it's happening on a
global scale.
>
> Ford's 500 and Fusion are built by Volvo and Mazda, respectively.  What
> does that tell you about Ford's faith in their 'murkan engineers?
>
It tells me that American car buying tastes have changed and Ford, like
other car companies has jumped on the globalization bandwagon. It's
simple economics. Rather than spend excess money on R&D it's simply
more cost effective to use existing technology from another division or
partner.
>
> > As far as price
> > and quality go these models are too new to make that kind of
> > determination. But they don't have to go very far to keep up with
> > Mazda in these categories. Remember Mazda has not always kept up in the
> > quality and reliability ratings with other Jap imports such as Toyota
> > and Honda.
>
> Because Ford own most of it; maybe all of it by now.  I suspect Ford
> are in the process of ruining Volvo, Jaguar, Range Rover, and any of
> their other recent acquisitions, too.  Still, they're better than the
> 'murkan designed and built Ford products.
>
This remains to be seen. But I can tell you this, the main thing Ford
brought to the table for Jaguar was reliability, more financial
stability and a more accessible market. It's amazing, Jaguar now
makes vehicles that actually start when you turn the key, even when it
rains.
>
> > Stupid people seem to have the misconception that if the car
> > is Japanese it must be superior. But only uninformed fools think like
> > this. Because when it comes to quality and reliability among the
> > Japanese auto imports Mazda pretty much brings up the tail end of the
> > dog.
> > >
> >
> > > > Don't say the
> > > > American car industry has no perception on what a sports car should be.
> > >
> > > In general, the American car industry has a very bad
> > > perception of what *any* car should be.
> > >
> > >
> > > > The problem is, niche filling two seat roadsters have limited sales
> > > > potential and it has nothing to do with appeal and everything to do
> > > > with practicality. Almost everyone loves the small sports car, fat
> > > > Americans and thin Europeans alike. But as an everyday driver they come
> > > > up short and they just don't fit in with most peoples needs.
> > > > Also comparing a high performance car like the vet to a miata is hardly
> > > > fair. Each vehicle caters to a different type of driver. The miata
> > > > delivers decant handling capabilities coupled with rather lackluster
> > > > performance while the vet delivers on all accounts.
> > >
> > > Why can't the 'murkans build anything like the Miata at
> > > all?  Why don't the 'murkans have anything remotely
> > > comparable to BMW or Mercedes?  Don't give me any
> > > crapola about "niche" - I see more Mercedes S500s and
> > > BMW 7-series cars on L.A. freeways than I see of all
> > > Chevrolet, Ford and Chrysler sedans combined.
> > >
> > Do you realize that only in the U.S. can auto makes like Mercedes and
> > BMW sell their car models at such exorbitant prices. Its not because
> > they are sooo much better it because fools are with retarded ideas
> > about auto quality are willing to pay through the nose for slightly
> > above average crap.
>
> No.  That could hold for a while, but not for long.  The competition
> from Lexus and Infiniti would kill them if they didn't get things up to
> speed.

Lexus, Infinity? Again, slightly above average crap, in fact they are
the epitome of above average crap. My point is, American car buyers are
willing to pay exorbitant amounts of money for an artificially
perceived value. Lets face it the Lexus and Infinity line are nothing
more than grossly bloated derivatives of the standard Toyota and Nissan
lines. It's one of the biggest Automotive shams in history and we
dumbass Americans fell for it. I'm sure the Japs have gotten more
than a few good laughs over it.
>
> It isn't just the construction quality of the cars, it's the concept of
> a car that people are buying.  German cars handle better than any
> 'murkan piece of crap, and better than most Japanese stuff.  It comes
> down to how the engineers see the car.  Japanese cars aren't as stiff
> handling as German ones, but they're nowhere near as mushy as the
> 'murkan ones.  Driving a 'murkan sedan, *any* 'murkan sedan, is like
> driving a garbage bag full of marshmallows.

I won't dispute the ride issue with you, because I agree. This has
been one of my pet peeves for years with the American car manufactures.
Unfortunately American auto manufactures have catered to a market that
prefers a complaint soft ride. Most American drivers view a car as just
another tool to get them through the day and they want to be
comfortable while driving. Case in point was the Saturn "L series".
This car was conceived and designed in Germany and was the American
copy of the Opel Vectra and when first introduced to this country it
road and handled like a European sedan. But because it had a very stiff
ride, so-called Automobile literary experts and consumers alike
complained about it and Saturn was forced to retune the suspension to
appease the morons who really didn't understand the whole premise of
the car.
>
>
> > > No one - I mean, no one who isn't stuck driving a
> > > donkey cart - aspires to own any American car.  For
> > > anyone with any taste and panache, American cars are
> > > what you make do with if you can't afford European or
> > > Japanese.
> > >
> > > The 'murkan manufacturers just haven't figured out, in
> > > over 40 years, that people with any discernment don't
> > > like 'murkan cars.  They *still*, after all this time,
> > > have the attitude that they'll tell us what we want,
> > > and what we need.  I used to have committed to memory a
> > > list of about 15 items that the 'murkans get utterly
> > > wrong while all the Europeans and Japanese get
> > > completely right.  Only a couple come easily to mind
> > > now, but they're emblematic.  Look at the windshield
> > > wipers on 'murkan and imported cars.  On *all* imported
> > > cars that I've ever seen, the wipers stand up
> > > completely perpendicular to the windshield, and stay
> > > there, so you can let go of the FUCKING things when you
> > > clean the windshield.  On *every* American car I've
> > > seen, for decades now, the FUCKING things lift off the
> > > windshield a couple of inches; you have to hold the
> > > thing up with one hand while working the squeege with
> > > the other.  THIS IS BAD.  Imports 1, 'murkans 0.
> > >
> > What American cars are you looking at, fully opposable wipers have been
> > standard on U.S. built cars since the early nineties. I own several
> > American cars and just how do you think I clean the snow off of their
> > windshields every winter. In fact the last American car I owned that
> > didn't have opposable wipers was in 1985.
> >
> > > High beam switch.  It took for-FUCKING-ever for the
> > > 'murkans to begin to put the high-beam switch in the
> > > turn indicator, rather than the stupid little foot
> > > button.  I wouldn't be the least surprised to learn
> > > that the switch *still* is that same little annoying
> > > can't-find-it aluminum foot button on certain big
> > > lard-ass American cars like the Ford 500 and (do they
> > > still make it?) Crown Victoria, and whatever the
> > > comparable Chevy models are.  Imports 2, 'murkans 0.
> >
> > Wrong, the foot but went out in the late 70s I once owned a 1978
> > Pontiac Grand Prix and even that had the high bean selector on the turn
> > signal.
> > >
> > > Some things the 'murkans eventually copied from the
> > > foreigners, but it took them too damned long:
> > > McPherson strut suspension, radial tires, etc.  Imports
> > > 3, 'murkans 0.
> > >
> > Again American cars may have lagged behind in the suspension department
> > at one time but that has be pretty much rectified since the late 70s
> > early 80s and radial tires have been common since the early 70s.
> >
> > Btw, how fucking old are you anyway? Your knowledge of the American
> > auto industry seems to be stuck 1975.
>
> Old enough that I haven't bought a 'murkan piece of crap since 1971.
> I've driven a few, though, as rentals.  I had some GM pile-o-crap just
> last year up in Seattle for a rental, and as sure as there's shit in a
> goat, the windshield wipers didn't stand up; I had to hold them up when
> I cleaned the windows.

Are you sure it's the goat that's full of shit? I'd like to know
what model it was because your experience seems to be contrary to what
is being produced today.
>
> Another one I forgot to mention was the hand actuated parking brake.
> That's better, and actually allows you to use it for something other
> than just holding the car in place when you leave it.  I know a few
> smaller 'murkan cars began using it when they finally started trying to
> build some small cars, but most still have that shitty worthless foot
> pedal parking brake that is all but useless.  Imports 5, 'murkans 0.
>
>
 Even larger vehicles like the GMC envoy and Chevy Trailblazer have
hand operated parking brakes. The only American cars you see nowadays
with a foot operated parking brake are full size luxury boats, pick-up
trucks and full size vans
> >
> > > And then there's that performance "thing".  Somehow,
> > > the Germans manage to get more performance out of a
> > > 3-litre engine than the 'murkans do out of 4 litres.  I
> > > just looked at the specs for a BMW 530 vs. a Ford 500.
> > >   Both have 3 litre engines, but the BMW gets 225hp to
> > > the Ford slug's 203; BMW gets 214 ft./lb. of torque to
> > > the Ford hay bale's 207.  And the BMW gets better gas
> > > mileage to boot!  Imports 4, 'murkans 0.
> >
> > The difference in horsepower ratings between these two cars doesn't
> > impress me much. As for the torque 7ft/lb can almost be negligible. It
> > more a coefficient of the torque curve, without comparing the two
> > curves I cannot honestly tell how efficiently the torque is delivered
> > across the length of the curve. As they say Horsepower brings customers
> > into the showroom but torque delivery sells the car. As far as the gas
> > mileage goes, according to my research their almost dead even in fact
> > the Ford beats the BMW by 1 mile each way. Besides when you consider
> > the price difference and since the 5 series cost on average $20,000
> > more than the Ford it damn well better outperform the Ford. If it
> > didn't it would make owners of BMWs extremely stupid.
>
> My point is that 'murkan Ford and GM cannot and WILL NEVER build a car
> that will make potential BMW or Mercedes drivers consider the 'murkan
> product instead of the German.  I've lived in Germany, and BMW and
> Mercedes are just considered good cars over there.  In 'murka,
> describing something as "German engineered" makes it sell; in Germany,
> describing something (other than computers) as "'murkan engineered"
> makes people laugh and walk out the showroom door.  Europeans quite
> rightly consider that 'murkans don't know their asses from their faces
> about cars.
>
Most Europeans feel that way about Jap vehicles as well. It's more a
matter of the whole European attitude. Most Europeans think that just
about everything European is superior. This is especially true today
because of the rampant anti-U.S. sentiment that permeates continental
Europe. So I'm not really surprised.
>
> > > The problem is that the 'murkans for a long time had a
> > > nearly captive market of lard-ass 'murkan customers who
> > > don't know quality from their asses, which is why they
> > > eat at Bob Evans and Denny's and Applebees to begin
> > > with.  The 'murkans could get away with making bigger,
> > > mushier handling sleds, and the fat lard-ass 'murkan
> > > public lapped it up.
> >
> >
> > I'm not going to argue the food issue with you, because I agree with
> > you the restaurants you mentioned serve little more than swell. But as
> > far as the American car market is concerned you are correct to a
> > degree. But what you are relaying happened 30 years ago during the
> > early to mid 70s.
>
> The 'murkan manufacturers have not caught up, and never will.  It is a
> function of who runs the companies.  The people running Ford and GM and
> the Chrsyler part of Daimler-Chrysler are all fat lard-ass 'murkans who
> *like* Bob Evans and Denny's and Applebee's, so they build cars for
> other fat lard-ass 'murkans.

Uhmmm yeah whatever....your ignorance is showing again and just what
the fuck is you obsession with the word "murkan"? What the hell is
that? The word is American. Say it with me now... A-mer-i-can. Now was
that so hard? Well, maybe for you it was.
>
> > Back then the American car industry did have a
> > monopoly and once competition in the form of cheap Japanese econo-boxes
> > came along, they paid the price. But that was then and this is now and
> > you really need to move into the 21st century with the rest of us.
> > Besides back in the day when the American auto industry held their
> > monopoly over the car market the average European car was absolute
> > shit. Did you ever drive a 70s vintage BMW? I'd rather drive a
> > Volkswagen.
> > >
> > > Back to the food angle of this:  it abso-fucking-lutely
> > > cracks me up that in red-state flyover territory, fat
> > > cardboard palate 'murkans actually are resentful of the
> > > fact that we more discerning people on the coasts like
> > > foreign foods.  I used to do some business travel to
> > > some red-state backwaters, and when it came time to
> > > pick a spot to go to lunch, the yokels in the local
> > > offices always had some snide comment to make about
> > > west coasters eating sushi, tofu, etc.  I don't think
> > > they even knew about Thai or Indian food being commonly
> > > available out here, and Chinese to them *only* meant
> > > bland Cantonese fare; if you said "Hunan" to them, they
> > > thought you wanted to know who Mr. Nan was.  And of
> > > course, where we always wound up eating was Applebee's
> > > or Max & Erma's or some other greasy shithole, and they
> > > had the 44-inch waists to go with it.
> >
> > I haven't really come across this but to be honest it's a big
> > country with diverse regional tastes and you will find fat people
> > everywhere you go, even on the coasts.
>
> You find very few fat people on the coasts.  However, as soon as you
> move inland - say, to California's Central Valley - then you might as
> well have gone to Iowa.  Those people are behemoths.
>
 California? You mean the Peoples Republic of CA. Here on the East
Coast we really don't consider Caliy-forn-ia part of the U.S. It's
far to embarrassing.
BTW are you sure your not confusing those so-called fat Americans with
the enormously bloated, illegal, Mexicans that seem to be everywhere in
the People's Republic of CA. As for Iowa, who gives a shit.
>
> > In fact I hear they even have
> > fat people in Europe now.
>
> Heavier than they used to be, but you don't find those people with
> upper arms larger than my waist the way you find 'em in flyover 'murka.
>
 So what you are saying is, you have an 18 or 19 inch waist. I'm
assuming you're a guy so that's pretty fucked up.

> > > 'Murkans - correction:  red-state flyover 'murkans -
> > > eat too much bad food and drive too-large bad cars
> > > because they have no discernment, and they never will.
> > >   To these benighted sweaty fundamentalist lowbrows, a
> > > lot of something of low quality is *always* preferable
> > > to a modest amount of something of high quality, and
> > > that isn't going to change.

Oh really do you really think things are so much different in Illinois
(blue state) than they are in Iowa (red state)? Think again. They have
the same rates of obesity. There is virtually no fucking difference at
all. In fact recent data shows Illinois with a very slight lead in the
BMI category. But bottom line, it's all the mid-west, shitty weather,
flat landscape and boredom as far as your eyes can see.

BTW, in the 2000 presidential election Iowa was a blue state. Your
ignorance is showing...Again.

> >
> > You do have something of a point, I'll give you that. But I still say
> > your knowledge of the American car scene sucks.
>
> It may be a little dated, but I don't think it's as off as you're
> making it out to be.

Maybe, but your past remarks don't bare that out.