🚀 go-pugleaf

>In article <mykes.0bap@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz
>) writes:
>>In article <26138@life.ai.mit.edu> gwydion@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Basalat Ali Raja
>) writes:
>>> One cannot help but ask...  Israel is the only democracy in the middle
>>> east?  How many of the Palestinians whose very lives and destiny are
>>> directly controlled by the Zionist government in Jerusalem have had a
>>> chance to vote against or in favour of this government?
>>>
>>> Spare me the lawyer's answers, that these people are immigrants, or
>>> refugees or whatever.  They have been there for generations, in many
>>> cases much longer than their Jewish neighbours who CAN vote.  And yet
>>> you claim that Israel is a democracy?  Only if you accept as a
>>> corollary that the Palestinians are not human.  Will you do that?
>>
>>Mr. Raja (or is it Mr. Ali Raja?  I prefer to be correct and polite) brings
>>up two questions that should be addressed, and I will add one or two of my
>>own...
>>
>>First is the issue of the vote.  It is easy to see that the situations in
>>Israel (Jews and Palestinians) bears a striking resemblance to the situation
>>in South Africa (Whites and Blacks), in terms of a minority dedicated to
>>retaining control of the nation by means of limitation or elimination of
>>rights of the majority.
>
>Mr. Schwartz, it's pretty clear that your view is based on clearly
>incorrect information.  First, Jews in Israel are a majority - about 84%
>including the new Russian olim which have already arrived.  Second of
>all, Jews are a majority *even if* you throw in the population of the WB
>and Gaza strip (the figure would then be abut 65%).    Third of all, all
>                                                       ________________
>citizens of Israel, Arab or Jew, have the same rights.  It is not at all
>_______________________________________________________
>an apartheid system.  The situation bears no resemblance at all.
>
That is absurd Mr. Perlam. You know very well that they do not enjoy
equal rights. more than 90% of Israel is reserved for the use of Jews.
Non Jews [read Palestinians] are not allowed to live there. That is not 
equality by any stretch. The only reason that Israel give the Arab a vote
is that they succeded in driving the Palestinians out and were left
with a small minority. South Africa would have done the same if they
had a chance to do the same. In denying the Palestinians to return to 
their homes, Israel make a mockery out of the term democracy.


>>  One would think that other nations of the world
>>would act with equal measures towards Israel as they have towards South
>>Africa to affect some change - sanctions, embargos, boycotts of products,
>>and the like.
>
>That's exactly what the PLO would like.  Their view has no basis in
>truth.

Really, it has a lot to do with truth.
In many respect, Israel is more deserving of " sanctions, embargos,
boycotts of products, ..." than South Africa. The Serbs had a good
teacher in ethnic cleansing.

>>However, the situations are quite different, and the Israeli position is
>>much more justified.  The Jewish state was brought into existance in 1948
>>for a reason - Jews have historically been a persecuted race since the
>>beginning of recorded history, and only a Jewish native homeland where
>>Jews would be safe to live in peace and could seek sanctuary when no other
>>nation would lend assistance.
>
>Persecuted people, please; not race.  There is no such thing as a Jewish
>"race".  Jews, in fact come in every skin tone imaginable.

Glad to hear you say it.
So How come Russian Jews have more right to Palestine (Israel) 
than Palestinians (By the was, I have a great long article from
the Globe and Mail about Spherdic Jews diaspora from Spain
You might be interested in it. I will check the exact date)

>>  In fact, the US does not have such a great
>>record in these matters - it refused assylum to German Jews who sought
>>to escape the holocaust in Nazi Germany, which is RECENT history!
>>
>>Equally important is the fact that the UN resolution of 1948 established
>>a nation/homeland for the Palestinians, as well.  The Palestinians rejected
>>their own homeland, justified by their own reasoning which I will not
>>refute in any way.  And in rejecting the UN resolution, the Palestinians
>>swore to destroy the state of Israel, and even made it part of the charter
>>or "constitution" of the PLO.  I truly believe that Yassir Arafat was
>>sincere in his "declaration of independance" speech of a couple years
>>ago when he claimed that the PLO no longer sought the destruction of
>>the Jewish state, but I wonder if he truly speaks for the majority
>>(or should I simply say ALL) of the Palestinians.
>
>Please, then, answer me one question:  why have neither his statements
>nor his actions reflected anything but a continuing committment to that
>goal (Israel's destruction) since?

The PLO has already accepted Israel right to exist. 
What about the reverse. Israel acceptance of a Palestinian
state to exit (and please let us not go into the old tired
argument that Jordan is Palestine). and the right of the
Palestinians to repatriation.


>>So what would it mean if Israel gave the right to vote to the Palestinians?
>>A mass flood of Palestinians into the state from the surrounding Arab states
>>to an extent that the Jews would no longer have a majority vote.  The state
>>of Israel would no longer be the state of Israel but would become a Palestinian
>
>>state.  From the Israeli (or Zionist) viewpoint, allowing the Palestinains to
>>become a part of the Jewish Democracy in Israel is suicide, not only for the
>>state of Israel but for Jews everywhere in the world.
>
>Of course Israel already has given the right to vote to Palestinians who
>are Israeli citizens (e.g. live within Israel itself) - in fact, there
>never was a time when they didn't have it!  The Territories are a
>different can of worms, as their status is still to be decided via
>negotiations.
>
>Would annexing the Territories be national suicide?  In my view it
>would.  Demographics show that even in the current situation, given
>current birth rates and trends, Palestinians would outnumber Jews in
>that area by about 2020.  However, the demographic turnaround isn't the
>primary reason.  Israel's security is.  Frankly, Israel, with a low
>birth rate comparable to Western countries, can't afford to live as an
>armed camp in a future where not only its own Arab population but more
>threateningly those of its neighbors are growing three times as fast as
>its own.  Unless Israel becomes a complete military state, it may not be
>able to survive that - and morally, I cannot conscience that.  Nor do I
>want, as a Jew, to be trapped in a mode where the only thing keeping us
>from war will be a nuclear bomb threat, if Israel truly does have one
>(something which is suspected by numerous nations but not 100% certain)
>- from my perspective that isn't morally acceptable.
>

I am glad to see that you want a resolution to the conflict. Yet this
resolution can come when Israeli and Palestinians are treated on the
same level. There is one thing I disagree with you and many other
Israelist about. I am for a binational state where the "Israeli-
Palestinian Federation" is for PALESTINIANS and ISRAELIES  alike.
I believe that this is the only long term solution to the fight
between Israeli and Palestinians. 


>>Second, Mr. Raja asks if Zionists or Americans or posters in this group
>>accept the Palestinians as human beings.  OF COURSE we do!  That is what
>>makes the situation a cruel one and an unusual one.  There is no desire
>>of Zionists in Israel to control mass numbers of militant/unruly/unhappy
>>Palestinians - but there is an absolute resolve among the Zionists that
>>Isreal should survive at all costs...  I would ask WHY the state of Isreal
>>would allow Palestinians every right of citizenship besides the right
>>to vote (and hence to destroy Isreal as Isreal MUST be)?
>
>The answer is that Israel already allows that right, and always has.

As I stated before, Israel has to allow the native Palestinians to return.
Palestinians have more right to Israel/Palestine than Russian Jews who are
ethnic Europeans (mostly khazars)

>>So, let me offer what I can, which is my opinions and ideas for solutions
>>to the Palestinian question.  It is clear that Jews and Arabs can live
>>together in Peace - I as a Jew count a number of Arabs, both immigrants
>>and US born, as great friends.  There is a clear and mutual love and trust
>>among us, in spite of situations elsewhere in the world.  There is no need
>>for one side to exterminate the other but there is a need to find a way
>>to live throughout the world in harmony and peace and to encourage eachother's
>>prosperity and growth.
>>
>>There really is only one stumbling block to peace and prosperity in Isreal
>>and a new Palestinian state that Arafat has asked the world to recognize
>>and support.  Land.  Where is the Palestinian state to be established?
>
>There are many others, if it is to be led by the PLO.  Such as the PLO's
>thirty year history of terror, not only on Israel, but on other targets,
>as well.  The PLO doesn't belong at the table until and unless it
>completely disavows those portions of its charter which call for
>Israel's destruction and ends the armed struggle.

With all due respect, the PLO called for the dismantelling of the
mechanics of the state of Israel and replacing it with a secular
non-sectarian state. The PLO currentelly accept Israel despite
the sectarian character of that state.

>>To go back 45 years to the territories specified in the original UN resolution
>>would make little sense, considering the events of those 45 years.  Does it
>>make sense to make a Palestinian state that is entirely encompassed by the
>>state of Israel on all sides?  Does it make sense for Isreal to give up land
>>that they have developed for decades?  I don't believe so (remember, this
>>is MY opinion).  As well, the Palestinians do not just pose "problems" for
>>the state of Israel, but for other Arab states, such as Jordan and Lebanon...
>>
>>Here is what I would propose, if I were able to, as the leader of Isreal.
>>I would propose that Isreal, Lebanon, and Jordan all give a portion of their
>>land to make a new nation for Palestinians to use for the creation of a new
>>state.  Isreal would give up some land from its northern provinces (Golan
>>Heights), Lebanon would give up area from its southern borders, and Jordan
>>would give up area from its western borders.  This would provide a wonderful
>>place for Palestinians to establish a nation.  There would be access to
>>the Mediterranian sea, rich and fertile land, and a place where Palestinians
>>could call their own (again!  after 45 years).
>>
>>Isreal, Lebanon, and Jordan must each be compensated by the world community
>>in return for the land they give up.  As an American, I would urge my
>>country to support the new Palestinian state, whether it was a monarchy or
>>a true democratic state, with as much aid as we now give to Egypt and
>>Israel - $2Bil per year.
>
>What if it were a military dictatorship, built along Syrian or
>Iraqi-type lines, as the makeup of the PLO makes far, far more likely?
>What then?  I should say that I'm not against a two-state solution
>either if and only if Israel's security can be assured.

The Palestinians are the most educated among Arabs. Despite occupation
and a life in a exile in a less than hospitable conditions, the PLO
has maintained a a democratic institution called the Palestine National
Council.
Again, to soothe the fear of Israelis a transition period could be 
worked out.

> The hope being that the Palestinians could
>grow their nation as a peaceful and harmonious one among the nations of
>the world.  As well, those nations who give up land should be compensated
>once for the value of the land - if Isreal gave up a developed City while
>the other nations gave up acres of desert, Israel should be compensated
>in a manner that allows them to (start to) build a new city within its
>borders.  This same reasoning should be applied equally.
>
>There is also the issue of Jerusalem, which has religious significance
>to ALL religions of the world - Islaam, Judaism, and Christianity.  Some
>have argued that the city should become an international city under no
>state's domain.  Whether or not such a proposal is tenable is doubtful
>to me, since one must still travel through the borders of Jordan or
>Isreal to reach it.  But if, at least, the state of Israel guaranteed
>free access to the city for religious purposes (do they not now?) for
>eternity, is it really an issue?

They do now.

--
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"

     Eric S. Perlman                             <perlman@qso.colorado.edu>
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
End of article 31735 (of 31868)--what next? [npq]



Rafeh Hulays