🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <mykes.0bap@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>In article <26138@life.ai.mit.edu> gwydion@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Basalat Ali Raja) writes:
>> One cannot help but ask...  Israel is the only democracy in the middle
>> east?  How many of the Palestinians whose very lives and destiny are
>> directly controlled by the Zionist government in Jerusalem have had a
>> chance to vote against or in favour of this government?
>>
>> Spare me the lawyer's answers, that these people are immigrants, or
>> refugees or whatever.  They have been there for generations, in many
>> cases much longer than their Jewish neighbours who CAN vote.  And yet
>> you claim that Israel is a democracy?  Only if you accept as a
>> corollary that the Palestinians are not human.  Will you do that?
>
>Mr. Raja (or is it Mr. Ali Raja?  I prefer to be correct and polite) brings
>up two questions that should be addressed, and I will add one or two of my
>own...
>
>First is the issue of the vote.  It is easy to see that the situations in
>Israel (Jews and Palestinians) bears a striking resemblance to the situation
>in South Africa (Whites and Blacks), in terms of a minority dedicated to
>retaining control of the nation by means of limitation or elimination of
>rights of the majority.

Mr. Schwartz, it's pretty clear that your view is based on clearly
incorrect information.  First, Jews in Israel are a majority - about 84%
including the new Russian olim which have already arrived.  Second of
all, Jews are a majority *even if* you throw in the population of the WB
and Gaza strip (the figure would then be abut 65%).    Third of all, all
citizens of Israel, Arab or Jew, have the same rights.  It is not at all
an apartheid system.  The situation bears no resemblance at all.

>  One would think that other nations of the world
>would act with equal measures towards Israel as they have towards South
>Africa to affect some change - sanctions, embargos, boycotts of products,
>and the like.

That's exactly what the PLO would like.  Their view has no basis in
truth.

>However, the situations are quite different, and the Israeli position is
>much more justified.  The Jewish state was brought into existance in 1948
>for a reason - Jews have historically been a persecuted race since the
>beginning of recorded history, and only a Jewish native homeland where
>Jews would be safe to live in peace and could seek sanctuary when no other
>nation would lend assistance.

Persecuted people, please; not race.  There is no such thing as a Jewish
"race".  Jews, in fact come in every skin tone imaginable.

>  In fact, the US does not have such a great
>record in these matters - it refused assylum to German Jews who sought
>to escape the holocaust in Nazi Germany, which is RECENT history!
>
>Equally important is the fact that the UN resolution of 1948 established
>a nation/homeland for the Palestinians, as well.  The Palestinians rejected
>their own homeland, justified by their own reasoning which I will not
>refute in any way.  And in rejecting the UN resolution, the Palestinians
>swore to destroy the state of Israel, and even made it part of the charter
>or "constitution" of the PLO.  I truly believe that Yassir Arafat was
>sincere in his "declaration of independance" speech of a couple years
>ago when he claimed that the PLO no longer sought the destruction of
>the Jewish state, but I wonder if he truly speaks for the majority
>(or should I simply say ALL) of the Palestinians.

Please, then, answer me one question:  why have neither his statements
nor his actions reflected anything but a continuing committment to that
goal (Israel's destruction) since?

>So what would it mean if Israel gave the right to vote to the Palestinians?
>A mass flood of Palestinians into the state from the surrounding Arab states
>to an extent that the Jews would no longer have a majority vote.  The state
>of Israel would no longer be the state of Israel but would become a Palestinian
>state.  From the Israeli (or Zionist) viewpoint, allowing the Palestinains to
>become a part of the Jewish Democracy in Israel is suicide, not only for the
>state of Israel but for Jews everywhere in the world.

Of course Israel already has given the right to vote to Palestinians who
are Israeli citizens (e.g. live within Israel itself) - in fact, there
never was a time when they didn't have it!  The Territories are a
different can of worms, as their status is still to be decided via
negotiations.

Would annexing the Territories be national suicide?  In my view it
would.  Demographics show that even in the current situation, given
current birth rates and trends, Palestinians would outnumber Jews in
that area by about 2020.  However, the demographic turnaround isn't the
primary reason.  Israel's security is.  Frankly, Israel, with a low
birth rate comparable to Western countries, can't afford to live as an
armed camp in a future where not only its own Arab population but more
threateningly those of its neighbors are growing three times as fast as
its own.  Unless Israel becomes a complete military state, it may not be
able to survive that - and morally, I cannot conscience that.  Nor do I
want, as a Jew, to be trapped in a mode where the only thing keeping us
from war will be a nuclear bomb threat, if Israel truly does have one
(something which is suspected by numerous nations but not 100% certain)
- from my perspective that isn't morally acceptable.

>Second, Mr. Raja asks if Zionists or Americans or posters in this group
>accept the Palestinians as human beings.  OF COURSE we do!  That is what
>makes the situation a cruel one and an unusual one.  There is no desire
>of Zionists in Israel to control mass numbers of militant/unruly/unhappy
>Palestinians - but there is an absolute resolve among the Zionists that
>Isreal should survive at all costs...  I would ask WHY the state of Isreal
>would allow Palestinians every right of citizenship besides the right
>to vote (and hence to destroy Isreal as Isreal MUST be)?

The answer is that Israel already allows that right, and always has.

>So, let me offer what I can, which is my opinions and ideas for solutions
>to the Palestinian question.  It is clear that Jews and Arabs can live
>together in Peace - I as a Jew count a number of Arabs, both immigrants
>and US born, as great friends.  There is a clear and mutual love and trust
>among us, in spite of situations elsewhere in the world.  There is no need
>for one side to exterminate the other but there is a need to find a way
>to live throughout the world in harmony and peace and to encourage eachother's
>prosperity and growth.
>
>There really is only one stumbling block to peace and prosperity in Isreal
>and a new Palestinian state that Arafat has asked the world to recognize
>and support.  Land.  Where is the Palestinian state to be established?

There are many others, if it is to be led by the PLO.  Such as the PLO's
thirty year history of terror, not only on Israel, but on other targets,
as well.  The PLO doesn't belong at the table until and unless it
completely disavows those portions of its charter which call for
Israel's destruction and ends the armed struggle.

>To go back 45 years to the territories specified in the original UN resolution
>would make little sense, considering the events of those 45 years.  Does it
>make sense to make a Palestinian state that is entirely encompassed by the
>state of Israel on all sides?  Does it make sense for Isreal to give up land
>that they have developed for decades?  I don't believe so (remember, this
>is MY opinion).  As well, the Palestinians do not just pose "problems" for
>the state of Israel, but for other Arab states, such as Jordan and Lebanon...
>
>Here is what I would propose, if I were able to, as the leader of Isreal.
>I would propose that Isreal, Lebanon, and Jordan all give a portion of their
>land to make a new nation for Palestinians to use for the creation of a new
>state.  Isreal would give up some land from its northern provinces (Golan
>Heights), Lebanon would give up area from its southern borders, and Jordan
>would give up area from its western borders.  This would provide a wonderful
>place for Palestinians to establish a nation.  There would be access to
>the Mediterranian sea, rich and fertile land, and a place where Palestinians
>could call their own (again!  after 45 years).
>
>Isreal, Lebanon, and Jordan must each be compensated by the world community
>in return for the land they give up.  As an American, I would urge my
>country to support the new Palestinian state, whether it was a monarchy or
>a true democratic state, with as much aid as we now give to Egypt and
>Israel - $2Bil per year. 

What if it were a military dictatorship, built along Syrian or
Iraqi-type lines, as the makeup of the PLO makes far, far more likely?
What then?  I should say that I'm not against a two-state solution
either if and only if Israel's security can be assured.

> The hope being that the Palestinians could
>grow their nation as a peaceful and harmonious one among the nations of
>the world.  As well, those nations who give up land should be compensated
>once for the value of the land - if Isreal gave up a developed City while
>the other nations gave up acres of desert, Israel should be compensated
>in a manner that allows them to (start to) build a new city within its
>borders.  This same reasoning should be applied equally.
>
>There is also the issue of Jerusalem, which has religious significance
>to ALL religions of the world - Islaam, Judaism, and Christianity.  Some
>have argued that the city should become an international city under no
>state's domain.  Whether or not such a proposal is tenable is doubtful
>to me, since one must still travel through the borders of Jordan or
>Isreal to reach it.  But if, at least, the state of Israel guaranteed
>free access to the city for religious purposes (do they not now?) for
>eternity, is it really an issue?

They do now.


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder