🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <C0C66B.96w@ddsw1.mcs.com>, arf@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
|>   
|>    Firing guns to celebrate the new year is customary in 
|>  Hispanic communities from Los Angeles to this Miami suburb. 
|>  Random deaths and injuries from the gunfire are not 
|>  uncommon.
|>  
|>  To believe that multiculturalism somehow improves our 
|>  society is just plain liberal mush.  What sort of blessing 
|>  is it to force our police officers to hide from "Hispanic" 
|>  barbarians when they should be out on the streets?
 
 If firing guns on New Year's Eve were an "American" tradition going
back to 1776, ARF would no doubt be defending it as a patriotic right,
protected by the sacred 2nd amendment.
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *|          he who refuses to do nonsense  
     \_|          is doomed to talk arithmetic.
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu 

In article <C0C66B.96w@ddsw1.mcs.com>, arf@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) says:
.
> I frequently get called all sorts of names for being less
> than enthusiastic about our so-called "multicultural
> society".  Here is a good example of the blessing it brings
> to our once peaceful country.....

> (supposed "example" of "multiculturalism" deleted)

> To believe that multiculturalism somehow improves our
> society is just plain liberal mush.  What sort of blessing
> is it to force our police officers to hide from "Hispanic"
> barbarians when they should be out on the streets?

Well,Jack,I had you pegged wrongly as a racist. You can now feel safe
from that charge. You're a racist _idiot_.

How is a macho celebration rite (and a pretty stupid one,I agree) supposed to
be representative of the entire length and breadth of Hispanic culture and
society?

Furthermore,how is one tragic incident _caused_ by the aforementioned macho
celebration rite supposed to stain the entire idea of understanding other
cultures on a basis other than the inane gibberish you churn out regularly?

You really should stop attempting to paint entire groups of people with the
broad brush you usually use,Jack,since you'd be the first cretin to start
whining if any of _them_ branded you in a similar fashion.

Twerp.

      ** Chris Krolczyk,esq.  * DISCLAIMER: My opinions are in **
      ** Maniac-at-Large      * no way endorsed by the Univer- **
      ** U19807@UICVM.BITNET  * sity of Illinois at Chicago.   **
      ** u19807@uicvm.uic.edu * So much for frivolous lawsuits.**

In article <C0C66B.96w@ddsw1.mcs.com>, arf@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
|> 
|>  
|>  I frequently get called all sorts of names for being less 
|>  than enthusiastic about our so-called "multicultural 
|>  society".  Here is a good example of the blessing it brings 
|>  to our once peaceful country.....
|>  

"our once peaceful country....."???
So America was better and more peaceful when the white man shot at
the Indians, and hit the black?
The American history is filled with abuse and opression. Note that
in your, hardly representative, example, the people fired guns in
celebration and out of joy, not to exterminate Indians, or kill
blacks, something the white man used to.


______________________________________________________________________________
Johan Lindqvist                     |Due to lack of interest, tomorrow
Gothenburg         Mail:            |has been cancelled.
Sweden      lindq@etek.chalmers.se  |
______________________________________________________________________________

Keywords: 

In article <1993Jan5.093033.1057@etek.chalmers.se> lindq@etek.chalmers.se (Johan Lindqvist) writes:
]In article <C0C66B.96w@ddsw1.mcs.com>, arf@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
]|>  I frequently get called all sorts of names for being less 
]|>  than enthusiastic about our so-called "multicultural 
]|>  society".  Here is a good example of the blessing it brings 
]|>  to our once peaceful country.....
]|>  
]
]"our once peaceful country....."???
]So America was better and more peaceful when the white man shot at
]the Indians, and hit the black?
]The American history is filled with abuse and opression. Note that
]in your, hardly representative, example, the people fired guns in
]celebration and out of joy, not to exterminate Indians, or kill
]blacks, something the white man used to.

WORLD history is filled with abuse and oppression. At least in America,
unlike most other countries that have a multicultural history, we
try to do something about it. It is all well and good for you to sit
in Sweden, which has not had a multicultural society, and condemn us, but
I don't think you have a clue as to how it works.

Today's multiculturalism is IMHO a mistake. The old philosophy of the
"melting pot" worked well except for blacks and Indians, who were excluded
for other reasons. Now that we have MOSTLY removed racism, there is no
reason for it not to work for all. Unfortunately, the "multiculturalists" have
now declared war on the majority culture, while trying to isolate each
immigrant (voluntary or otherwise) culture. The result is a huge increase
in racially motivated crimes by blacks, a huge increase in racial tensions,
and a Kulturefog which seeks to destroy what is good along with what
is bad.

Naturally, the multiculturalists claim that it is a good thing to set
ethnic groups against each other; to constantly harp on injustices -real
or perceived; and to instituted censorship in order to protect the
feelings of non-white individuals (as if they needed these self annointed
guardians). Anyone with a whit of sense realises that these tactics are
going to increase racial tension, increase unfairness, and further
polarize the American society. Many multiculturalists desire this, as
they see it as the only way to destroy what they view as an unjust
society. To them, all I have to say is... go live in Bosnia or somewhere
and let the rest of us work to get along with each other.

-- 
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
john@anasazi.com ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
       - - Gun Control Means Hitting What You are Aiming At! - -
 - - - "It is better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six." - - -

john@anasazi.com writes:
>lindq@etek.chalmers.se (Johan Lindqvist) writes:
>]arf@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>]|>  I frequently get called all sorts of names for being
>]|>  less than enthusiastic about our so-called "multicultural 
>]|>  society".  Here is a good example of the blessing it
>]|>  brings to our once peaceful country.....
>]|>  
>]
>]"our once peaceful country....."???
>]So America was better and more peaceful when the white man shot
>]at the Indians, and hit the black?
>
>Today's multiculturalism is IMHO a mistake. The old philosophy of the
>"melting pot" worked well except for blacks and Indians, who were
>excluded for other reasons. Now that we have MOSTLY removed racism,
>there is no reason for it not to work for all. 

John's last sentence in the quote is important, because that 
differentiates him greatly from Jack Schmidling's intent (to
John's credit).  The integration of the "melting pot" is a
very natural process if catch-pans are not set to stop the
flow.  At the same time, laissez-faire multiculturalism as
found in multi-generational Italian families in metro New
York or German in Pennsylvania or Chinese and Japanese on
the California coast can peacefully coexist because that
integration process has no timetable ... that's all right
with me, I'm from one of those myself (but Canadian) ...
it's the politically backed process either from pressure
groups or those in power that disturb me.

>Unfortunately, the "multiculturalists" have now declared war on the
>majority culture, while trying to isolate each immigrant (voluntary
>or otherwise) culture. The result is a huge increase in racially
>motivated crimes by blacks, a huge increase in racial tensions, and a
>Kulturefog which seeks to destroy what is good along with what is bad.

Here's another angle, which comes from Toronto (Canada's multicultural
capitol, as they like to tout these days) ... official multiculturalism
was shunned by longtime residents until the Establishment hopped on the
bandwagon.  Seemed odd at first.  But after living there a while, you
see something odd ... with the bulk of Canadian immigrants flocking to
Toronto for a couple of decades, the city and provincial governments
are still packed to the brim with traditional British-descended folks.
It seems that throwing a few cultural grants to the homesick but proud
community movers and shakers to organize folk dance exhibitions works
in the long run to keep them out of your hair, and marginalizes their
kids to "stay in the community" rather than go to U of Toronto (and
-- *gasp* -- gain membership at St. Michael's!!) or Queens, etc. thus
competing for those plum law school, grad school, etc. spots with your 
kids and be somebody ... imagine, the mayor or the premier (governor) 
being one of *them*? (-;

By the way, two Canadian ethnic groups affected by the above are
the Italians (not as long a history as their American NY cousins)
and the Portuguese ... colour doesn't even have to come into the
picture.

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare
> gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU 		Support NAFTA
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			 Eat Mexican  (El Teddy's ad)

In article <93004.154249U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> <U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>be representative of the entire length and breadth of Hispanic culture and
>society?
>
>Furthermore,how is one tragic incident _caused_ by the aforementioned macho
>celebration rite supposed to stain the entire idea of understanding other
>cultures on a basis other than the inane gibberish you churn out regularly?


First of all, it was the AP that called it a Hispanic tradition.  I only
pointed out that we would be better off if it had stayed in Hispania.

I have no problem with understanding other cultures, I just don't wish
to import them into this country.

The one tragic incident was the result of thousands of individual acts
of barbarism, anyone of which could have ended the same way.

Time to take your liberal head out of the sand and quit making excuses
for a bad idea.

js

In <C0F1II.I25@ddsw1.mcs.com> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>In article <93004.154249U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> <U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:

>>be representative of the entire length and breadth of Hispanic culture and
>>society?

>>Furthermore,how is one tragic incident _caused_ by the aforementioned macho
>>celebration rite supposed to stain the entire idea of understanding other
>>cultures on a basis other than the inane gibberish you churn out regularly?

>First of all, it was the AP that called it a Hispanic tradition.  I only
>pointed out that we would be better off if it had stayed in Hispania.

Where?

And we'd be better off if you had stayed out of the country, too.

>I have no problem with understanding other cultures, I just don't wish
>to import them into this country.

It's sort of odd to say "other" cultures when you live in the United
States, since there isn't a native culture here at all.  Virtually *all*
of the culture in this country was imported.

>The one tragic incident was the result of thousands of individual acts
>of barbarism, anyone of which could have ended the same way.

>Time to take your liberal head out of the sand and quit making excuses
>for a bad idea.

What's the bad idea in this case?  Shooting guns in the air?  No one is
defending that.  (Of course, if you read the net, all liberals are
gun-grabbing lunatics who don't think anyone should own guns, so
obviously it can't be a liberal position to defend this.)

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina

In article <C0F1II.I25@ddsw1.mcs.com> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>In article <93004.154249U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> <U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>be representative of the entire length and breadth of Hispanic culture and
>>society?
>>
>>Furthermore,how is one tragic incident _caused_ by the aforementioned macho
>>celebration rite supposed to stain the entire idea of understanding other
>>cultures on a basis other than the inane gibberish you churn out regularly?
>
>
>First of all, it was the AP that called it a Hispanic tradition.  I only
>pointed out that we would be better off if it had stayed in Hispania.

Saying "I didn't say it, they did" does not change your responsibility
for asserting the truth of a statement. (Even though you often behave
as if it does.) 

>I have no problem with understanding other cultures, I just don't wish
>to import them into this country.

You have a _great_ problem understanding other cultures. You have no
problem *hating* other cultures.

Every culture brings with it some negatives - because people aren't
perfect. But every culture also brings with it some positives. Every
culture that has come to America has changed after it got here, and as
it has changed, it has changed the culture around it. Every group has
made unique contributions to the culture that we are a part of. 

>The one tragic incident was the result of thousands of individual acts
>of barbarism, anyone of which could have ended the same way.

The one tragic incidient was the result of one kind of reprehensible,
irresponsible behavior. Americans of all races, colors, ethnicities,
etc., have been known to participate in reprehensible, irresponsible
behavior. For example, your own beloved white men have been known to
take part in gang-rapes in fraternity houses, hangings of innocent men
who have the wrong skin color, etc.

	<MC>
-- 
|| Mark Craig Carroll: <MC>     || "I'm not dumb, 
|| Univ of Delaware, Dept of CIS||  I just have a command of thoroughly 
|| Grad Student/Labstaff Hacker ||  useless information."
|| carroll@udel.edu             || 	-Calvin

In article <C0F1II.I25@ddsw1.mcs.com>, arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) says:
>
>In article <93004.154249U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> <U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>be representative of the entire length and breadth of Hispanic culture and
>>society?
>>
>>Furthermore,how is one tragic incident _caused_ by the aforementioned macho
>>celebration rite supposed to stain the entire idea of understanding other
>>cultures on a basis other than the inane gibberish you churn out regularly?

>First of all, it was the AP that called it a Hispanic tradition.  I only
>pointed out that we would be better off if it had stayed in Hispania.

Tell me when you find a country called "Hispania" on the map,Jack.

>I have no problem with understanding other cultures, I just don't wish
>to import them into this country.

Oh,please. That has absolutely _nothing_ to do with your statement that
implies all Hispanics are "barbarians" because of one suspicious tradition.

If you're so adamant about the importation of supposedly alien cultures
into American society,tell me this-since a good deal of the (European)
ethnic diversity of this country occured because of immigration during
the 19th and early-20th centuries,how come our precious social stability
didn't whither away _then_,if the importation of non-Anglo Saxon cultures
is such a bad thing?

Likewise,what about immigrants from China,Vietnam or Korea? If I remember
correctly,these groups are less prone to violence than even native-born
US citizens for the most part and obtain a higher degree of education
than even "white" ethnic groups,to boot. Do they fit into your stereo-
type?

>The one tragic incident was the result of thousands of individual acts
>of barbarism, anyone of which could have ended the same way.

You still haven't detailed how one incident justifies your slandering of
an entire ethnic group as "barbarians".

>Time to take your liberal head out of the sand and quit making excuses
>for a bad idea.

Correction: Take _your_ head out of your ass and look around. If you're
going to resort to stereotyping,I'll continue to stereotype _you_ as a
hateful little moron who types up thought-free posts solely due to the
fact that your stupidity is only matched by your degree of half-assed
moralizing towards anyone who doesn't fit your deluded norm of "civilized
behavior",such as it is.

      ** Chris Krolczyk,esq.  * DISCLAIMER: My opinions are in **
      ** Maniac-at-Large      * no way endorsed by the Univer- **
      ** U19807@UICVM.BITNET  * sity of Illinois at Chicago.   **
      ** u19807@uicvm.uic.edu * So much for frivolous lawsuits.**

In article <C0F1II.I25@ddsw1.mcs.com> arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
>In article <93004.154249U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> <U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>be representative of the entire length and breadth of Hispanic culture and
>>society?
>>
>>Furthermore,how is one tragic incident _caused_ by the aforementioned macho
>>celebration rite supposed to stain the entire idea of understanding other
>>cultures on a basis other than the inane gibberish you churn out regularly?
>
>
>First of all, it was the AP that called it a Hispanic tradition.  I only
>pointed out that we would be better off if it had stayed in Hispania.
>
>I have no problem with understanding other cultures, I just don't wish
>to import them into this country.

Damn, better sell Florida back to Spain. 

As a friend of mine from New Mexico says: "We didn't come to the US,
the US came to us." If you've lived somewhere for centuries, and another
group comes along and imposes a government, should you really be expected
to change your culture to match theirs? No, you shouldn't. Then why should
the Hispanics in the US be expected to change?

Therefore, the US will always and should always be a multicultural state.

Bear in mind, it's very likely that Puerto Rico will try to gain statehood
by the end of the century. They're officially Spanish-speaking, and that's
not going to change. The English Only partisans should really have fun with
this.
-- 
Stephen Graham
graham@cs.washington.edu	 uw-beaver!june!graham

The really refreshing thing about dealing with Arf is that he makes no
bones about his bigotry -- although he _does_ deny that's what it is.
I love this line:

arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:

>I have no problem with understanding other cultures, I just don't wish
>to import them into this country.

Jack, you might be surprised to know that there are some of us who
believe that the real value in "this country" is that it is not a
monoculture, that it is one of the few places in the world in which the
entire concept is that a whole lot of different people can co-exist --
with a little effort on everyone's part.  

You ever go out for Chinese food, Jack? or Italian? or Polish? or maybe
listen to a little Rhythm & Blues? or opera? or Los Lobos?

But just think, Jack, the Indians probably feel the same way about you.

--Jeff Frane

-- 
gummitch@techbook.COM  Public Access UNIX at (503) 220-0636 (1200/2400) 

In <C0C66B.96w@ddsw1.mcs.com> arf@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:

> I frequently get called all sorts of names for being less 
> than enthusiastic about our so-called "multicultural 
> society".  Here is a good example of the blessing it brings 
> to our once peaceful country.....
 
First of all, could you explain exactly what this post has to do with
multiculturalism?

And speaking of "mush," could you elaborate on exactly *when* our
country was peaceful?

[An AP articule about a woman killed by a stray bullet fired into the air on 
New Years:

>   Firing guns to celebrate the new year is customary in 
> Hispanic communities from Los Angeles to this Miami suburb. 
> Random deaths and injuries from the gunfire are not uncommon.

>    Police in Hialeah say they halt patrols and seek shelter 
> right before midnight.   "Everyone who has worked here a 
> while knows to take cover," said Hialeah homicide detective 
> Lorenzo Trujillo. "You have thousands of people shooting at
> the same time all over town."
> .............
 
> To believe that multiculturalism somehow improves our 
> society is just plain liberal mush.  What sort of blessing 
> is it to force our police officers to hide from "Hispanic" 
> barbarians when they should be out on the streets?

"Hispanic" barbarians, huh?
Why the quotation marks around Hispanic?

And what does this have to do with multiculturalism?
 
-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina

John R. Moore writes:
>WORLD history is filled with abuse and oppression. At least in
America,
>unlike most other countries that have a multicultural history, we
>try to do something about it. It is all well and good for you to sit
>in Sweden, which has not had a multicultural society, and condemn us,
but
>I don't think you have a clue as to how it works.

First, i don't think Johan Lindqvist's comment about previous racial
violence in the U.S. is necessarily intended as dumping on the U.S.
Mr. Schmidling implied that before the "multiculturalism" movement
the U.S. was a peaceful country; Mr. Lindqvist refuted that.  He did
not say the U.S. is the only country that has had such problems.  It
may be he wanted to imply that; i can't read his mind.  Neither can
you.  You jumped to conclusions.

Second, Sweden - as well as Norway and Finland - _are_ multicultural
societies, and have been for centuries.  In the first place, the
northern boundaries of these three countries, plus Russia, have
changed considerably over the years, and only the border between
Russia and the others has ever been strictly guarded.  Secondly, the
Sami (Lapps) were in the northern parts of these countries before the
Swedes etc. came there.  There has been conflict between these
cultures, and governments often tried to "assimilate" the Sami, or to
give the Sami less rights than others.  Fortunately the spirit now is
of cooperation, and there is far less conflict than there was in the
past - but there is still conflict sometimes.  And finally, there has
been immigration to Sweden in recent years, particularly political
refugees.  The immigration has not exactly been overwhelming but it
has been enough that there is a noticeable non-Swedish element in the
cities.

-Cindy Kandolf
 cindy@solan.unit.no
 Trondheim, Norway

In article <C0C66B.96w@ddsw1.mcs.com> arf@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Jack Schmidling) writes:
	[Schmidling's posting of an AP article about a Florida Hispanic
	woman killed by New Year's gunfire, and his comments about
	not wanting more of Them here because America is a bucket of
	something-or-other which is now full.]

A guy a went to high school was killed in a similar accident.
He was going to a college lacrosse game [U.of.Del., I think], 
and was hit in the head by a bullet.  Some kid a quarter mile away was
cleaning a gun in his garage, and decided to shoot at a bird.
I also knew a guy who was blinded by playing with firecrackers,
another stupid Yankee holiday tradition.

On the other hand, I grew up in a culture where we got our meat at
grocery stores and most of our parents didn't let us buy fireworks.
But we did go to churches that taught us that God had created everybody,
and that we were all brothers and sisters and ought to act like it
and respect each other, regardless of color or where our parents came
here from.  (My family were latecomers, didn't get here until 1620,
and went home again for a year or two; some didn't even get here until
the late 1700s.  But we let you in anyway, and there's plenty of room
for everyone - try asking some Kansas farmer about the ever-decreasing
demand for farmland if you think otherwise - why you wouldn't even
need a fence around your backyard to keep the neighbors quiet if you
bought yourself a few hundred acres.  (Nice backyard, BTW, but if
you're so against multi-culturalism, shouldn't you just grow short
turf-grass like Everyone Else instead of supporting biological diversity?))

Also, the religion you were disparaging spelled is Santeria, Jack, and 
some of its customs *are* as offensive as the good old American
tradition of drinking a cup of blood from the first deer you kill,
but not as offensive as, say, dressing up in white robes to terrorize
or kill your neighbors.  














--
#				Pray for peace;      Bill
# Bill Stewart 1-908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.att.com AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ
Bush's pardon of his co-conspirators shows that he is, in the end, still a wimp.