🚀 go-pugleaf

Love-Hounds Digest			    Monday, March 17, 1986, 10:23

Today's Topics:

       The great debate, new KB chart positions, and sticky love
			    Cocteau et alia
			    Letter From Ivo
			 Why is this happening?
			  More obscure lyrics
				Cocteau
			Re:  Love-Hounds Digest
		     Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast
		     Re:  big 10" of RUTH (3 msgs)
	       Won't this unleash some messages? (2 msgs)
		      band names vs. band quality
	    I didn't get flamed like this even in net.music!
		  I didn't come here for an argument.
		   Rema Rema / CTwins (again?) / XTC
		 Re:  I didn't get flamed like this ...
			       Obscenity.
			   Andy Partridge ...
		 Flippancy, gossip and Ed Asner's Gay.
	    Flirting With Disaster (sonic youth discography)
			    Re: Sonic Youth
			Peter Gabriel/profanity
			   A few questions..
			Phonetics and Skreikback

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 86 00:20:00 EST
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: The great debate, new KB chart positions, and sticky love

Many of you probably know, at least if you read net.music, that I can
enjoy a good flame every now and then.  Perhaps as pseudo-maintainer
of this list, however, I find myself more in a position of
responsibility, especially when I think of all the poor people out
there who signed up so they could hear the latest fanzine drivel on
Kate Bush, and didn't expect to get assaulted with reams on the latest
moral issues on communication techniques in a widely networked
environment.  Therefore, I declare that as of tommorrow the debate on
profranity is officially closed.  So you better get your last words in
quickly.  All flames on the matter after tomorrow will have something
very obscene done to them, but I'll not tell you what lest some
people get upset.

You guys shouldn't force me to become an evil censoring power hungry
tyrant, however, because once I've tasted that sort of power, I will
probably get cocky and start believing that I can do anything at all.
The next thing you know, I'll be off in England camping out on Kate's
front lawn until she gives me the 12" single for "Sat In Your Lap"
(which she has like the only copy of).  Either that or until she gives
*me* the  key, rather than this Houdini bloke....  And then there will
be no one left to run this mailing list.

Those who wish to continue to use profanities, may do so, but you
should realize that when it appears in mod.music, Greg Skinner may
perform some unpredictable transformation on what you have said to
make it acceptible for the likes of cmoore@brl.  Those who do not
wich to read profanities, may unsubscribe, wear their official
"Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy" peril sensitive glasses, or fluck
off and die.  Or perhaps if they ask me hard enough, I might provide a
filter to transform "d*mn" into "darn", "sh*t" into "shoot", "G*d"
into "golly" and "f*ck" into "play hide the salami".  After running
Love-Hounds through this filter, it should be acceptible even to those
who find "Leave It To Beaver" too risque.

		"With my ego in my gut
		 My babling mouth would wash it up
		 But now I've started learning how
		 	(I keep it shut
			 I keep it shut)"

		 Doug

*****
I would like to step in here and say a few words explaining my position.
As the moderator of mod.music, I have a responsibility to the rest of
USENET to provide a moderated service, free of the constant bickering
and flaming that goes on in the net groups.  I do not want to be an evil
censoring tyrant, either.  I received a few messages complaining about
the high level of profanity in mod.music, and the fact that some sites
might cut it off if it persisted.  I felt obligated to modify the
profanity, and to ask a few individuals not to use it unless they
absolutely had to.  As you well know, there is an "information overload"
on USENET right now, and moderation is one of the ways in which this
overload is being solved.  The future of USENET may depend, in part, on
the success of moderation, because moderation will enable certain groups
(like this) to be transmitted by satellite.  However, if the moderated
groups don't differ from the net groups, they and the net groups may be
grossly cut back.  A number of people who contribute to love-hounds can
only access it through USENET.  Would you want to cut some of your
friends off?  I ask that you please use restraint wherever possible.

Thank you,
Greg Skinner (gregbo), The Moderator
*****

P.S.  For those who want some fanzine drivel: the last time I looked
at Billboard, sometime last week, the single "Hounds of Love" had
entered the British charts at 26, and the album had risen from 19 to
14.  On the other hand, last week the album "Hounds of Love" just
dropped out of the U.S. top 100.  There will be a moment of silence.
On the other hand, the album is still at number six on WFNX's chart.

And here's a review by Andy Gill from the 1 March 86 issue of the NME
for the HoL single:

	She'd say  I'm sure, there's always been an erotic
	undercurrent to her work, but on the "Hounds of Love" LP it's
	handled with confidence, maturity, and daring largely absent
	in her earlier work; here as in "Running Up  That Hill",
	desire is almost religious in its intensity.

Does anyone have any idea why the NME decided that after N years of
hating Kate Bush, it was suddenly okay to like her?

And about this erotic undercurrent that's always been there...  there
are some things that have been puzzling me for a while.  Like in
"L'Amour Looks Something Like You" Kate sings at the end "I find I'm
living in that evening with that feeling of sticky love inside".  What
is this feeling of sticky love inside?  She's not talking about
*seamen* is she?  Gosh.  Is the feeling of old seamen inside you
something that is fun to remember?  Perhaps some of the women on the
list would like to elaborate.

And in "Ran Tan Waltz" Kate sings "But some night she'll run back in
fright if she picks on a Dick that's too big for her pride."  I don't
get it.  Are all of the woman's extramarital boyfriends named "Dick"?
And why would they be too big for her pride?  Oh...  golly, she's not
talking about penises, is she?  Well why would a penis be too big for
the woman's pride?  I don't get it.  Could someone explain this to me.

And once in an interview, Kate was asked what her favorite songs  on
"The Dreaming" were, and for one of them, she said "Nice To Swallow".
Now, there's no "Nice To Swallow" on the album.  There's "Night Of The
Swallow", so Kate must be making a pun.  But why "Nice To Swallow"?
Oh, golly.  She's not talking about penises again, is she?!?  Or maybe
seamen again?

This reminds me of one of my friends who was in my M.I.T. dorm.  He
went to Wellsley for a semester as an exchange student.  In a biology
class there, the professor was talking about how seamen has a high
salt content.  One of the students blurted out "But it tastes so
sweet!"  and then she immediately looked very embarrassed.  Maybe
someone would like to elaborate and tell us whether or not seamen
and/or penises are nice to swallow and whether seamen is salty or
sweet.

Well, I'm pretty confused now, but at least I can rest assured tonight
that since I haven't used any profanities here, that at least *I*
haven't offended anyone today.

		"Breathing the fallout in out in out in out in"

		 Doug



P.P.S.  Isn't it strange that all this talk about obscenity started in
the 69th posting to mod.music???  I think it's a message from G*d!
But what does it mean?

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 05:38:36 PST
From: francis@csvax.caltech.edu (Joseph Francis)
Subject: Cocteau et alia

So nice to know about this discourse...  Cocteau was a master of surrealism,
literary, drawing, and made wonderful movies like ``Orpheus''.  There are
some good stills in the Edition #4 of THE MANIPULATOR, for those who like
magazines 3 times the areal size of INTERVIEW.  So what of this music scene?
Is this a group beyond 23 SKIDOO?  Does everyone love FLOWERPOT MEN?  What is
the style/sound of current discussion?     J  O  E




[][][][][][][][][][]

Date:     Thu, 13 Mar 86 8:46:11 EST
From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA
Subject:  Letter From Ivo

This is reprinted from the latest issue of the Offense Newsletter, which
is a pretty good monthly that follows bands like The Fall, The Cocteau Twins,
The Buttholes and Nick Cave.  It also features tons of creative record and zine
reviews and scribblin's from scenesters from all over the USA including 
John "Baboon Dooley" Crawford, Fred Mills, Chet Howland and the net's very own
SB Tobias.   It gets a little too cheerleaderish at times when the editor
is talking about his godheads but that's what a fanzine is all about, I guess.  
Send a SASE to The Offense Newsletter, PO Box 12614, Columbus, Oh  43214 for 
subscription or sample issue information.

---- cut here ----
Tim,
I thought I'd give you an update on our activities and plans.  Our first 
releases will be a 12" by a Dutch singer, with a rather remarable voice, 
called Richenel and an LP (Victoria Land) by the Cocteaus.  This LP, which 
I'm totally in love with, is somewhat different.  On their return from the U.S. 
Robin and Liz decided they wanted to go into the studio with just an acoustic 
guitar (and racks of Robin's effects) and see what happened.  The resultant 
three tracks were remarkable -- so they wrote and recorded another six which
have all become Victoria Land.  Simon's not on the record but Richard, from
Dif Juz, plays sax on three songs and there are virtually no drums.

Even before we release the LP (late March?) they will have started work on 
another LP with Simon.

The Wolfgang Press are currently recording a new LP and Colourbox an EP.
Everyone is working on their individual contributions for a compilation of
new material which will be accompanied by a 23 Envelope-directed video.

Word still continues on the This Mortal Coil LP, and I'm still talking to 
Throwing Muses, from Boston, about an album.  Sometime this month I hope to
finalize licensing arrangements for an LP of traditional Bulgarian folk songs
entitled Le Mystere Des Voix Bulgares.

Also planned in '86 will be Colourbox, Xymox, and Dif Juz LPs.  Since our 
meeting with Harold Budd in L.A.  last September discussions still continue
concerning a possible collaboration between him and the Cocteaus.

I've also asked Pieter, of Xymox, if he would like to record a solo LP.

As you can see from all of this, I anticipate being somewhat busy simply
coordinating probably more releases in one year than we've had since 1980.
I hope it'll all be worthwhile.

				Ivo Watts-Russell London England
				4 A D Records.

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 09:43:57 EST
From: harvard!bu-cs!sam (Shelli Meyers)
Subject: Why is this happening?


This is terrible...the one thing we all left net.music life
for and here we are doing it all over again.  I'm not even
gonna discuss what I think is right or wrong?  What does it
matter?  It'll just be fuel for the fire.

I think I'm going to want off this mailing list very soon.

    --Shelli

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 09:52:02 EST
From: harvard!bu-cs!sam (Shelli Meyers)
Subject: More obscure lyrics


Well, after we figure out whether or not Liz is saying "you suck",
here's another something to ponder:

Remember Berlin, Pleasure Victim?  And the most enticing song played
on the radio ever at the time: Sex.  At the end of the song, after
all the moaning and groaning, she sorta whispers something.  A friend
of mine saw Berlin in concert and swears she heard, 

(faint hearts hit control-c)

"F*ck me up the butt."

Is this what she says on the album?  I SORTA hear it, but I remember
what people said about the power of suggestion....
Can anybody substantiate this?

Certainly is crude, isn't it, no wonder they only ever played the
first half on the radio....

And NO I don't spend all my time listening for dirty words on albums!
Okay???!!!!!!!!!!!

---------
"The first time I heard there were problems in the Middle East,
 I thought they were talking about Pittsburgh!"

          --Shelli

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 11:05:00 EST
From: hsut@ed.purdue.edu (Bill Hsu)
Subject: Cocteau


Jean Cocteau was also associated with (but not one of, I don't think) the
group of French composers known as Les Six. Their spiritual mentor was
Satie, and most of their music was a neo-classical reaction against
romantic excesses. Try Poulenc's piano concerto for some humorous fake
Mozart.

Cocteau also wrote words for operas and musical works for the stage, including
some stuff with Stravinsky. Most of the music Cocteau was associated with
does not sound like what I've heard from the Cocteau Twins. Probably just
another cute meaningless band name (I love cute meaningless band names :-)

Many of Cocteau's contemporaries considered him to be a diletante and
did not take him seriously. His novel Les Enfants Terribles is fun if
you're into decadence...

Bill Hsu

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date:     Thu, 13 Mar 86 10:57:20 EST
From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA
Subject:  Re:  Love-Hounds Digest


Question:  Why is the 11" of RUTH hard to tape?  I'm making a 
tape for a well known net.music.kate-bush-hater and want to
know details such as this before I start.  5 cents to the 
person who guesses correctly with whom I am trading tapes.

----
Cute Usenet signoff quote:  Keep your cool and read the rules
Cute Usenet nickname:  Mu
Cute Convoluted Usenet path:  sequent!riacs!amsaa!hofmann


[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 11:20:36 EST
From: Laura Frank Clifford <lcliffor@bbnccm.ARPA>
Subject: Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast


Jean Cocteau also directed one of my '10 favorite films of all time' -
"Beauty and the Beast".


[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 09:57:18 PST
From: jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes)
Subject: Re:  big 10" of RUTH

	Really-From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA

	Question:  Why is the 11" of RUTH hard to tape?

A whole bunch of things. First of all, it's one big f*cking crescendo,
spanning a W I D E range of signal strength. It took me three times to
get it right, and it's a pain. Also, there's this damn pounding bass
that just overloads the rest of the signal. Kate needs to learn a bit
more about production of danse-mixers ...

	5 cents to the person who guesses correctly with whom I am
	trading tapes.

Uh. Simple. bu-bu-bu-bub? (PROMENADE!) ... pay up, slick.

/jordan

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date:     Thu, 13 Mar 86  12:00:48 EST
From: CUTTER%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Local UMass address is
  Cutter@Mailer.CY175)
Subject:  Won't this unleash some messages?

OK, I admit it. I've never heard any Kate Bush other than "Running Up
That Hill" and her b-vox on "peter gabriel III". The first time I
heard her solo was when WFNX played RUTH back in the summer. I liked it
immediately, but had not the funds to buy the album. Now that I'm
financially solvent again, I want to get some of her stuff.

My question is: What would be considered a KB "starter"? In other words,
what of KB's should I get first, and what should I absolutely avoid?
What is valuable if I see it lying in Second Coming Records, and what
is a rip-off?

                                      Joe Turner
                                      {decvax,ima,linus}!cca!ringwld!cutter
                                      cutter@umb.csnet
                                      rg.cutter@oz.lcs.mit.edu
                                      take your pick...

"The safety pin returns my smile, I nod a brief hello,
 While you are building molecules with your garden hoe." - Beatles

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 13:25:50 EST
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re:  big 10" of RUTH

> From: jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes)

>>	Question:  Why is the 11" of RUTH hard to tape?

> A whole bunch of things. First of all, it's one big f*cking crescendo,
> spanning a W I D E range of signal strength. It took me three times to
> get it right, and it's a pain. Also, there's this damn pounding bass
> that just overloads the rest of the signal. Kate needs to learn a bit
> more about production of danse-mixers ...


Now, wait one flucking second!  ("Flucking" isn't obscene it?)  Why
does using all of the power of the medium provided provided by 12"
singles imply that Kate has anything to learn about production of
dance mixes?  Kate has said that she likes 12" singles specifically
because they give her more dynamic range and bass response to work
with.  I think that the 12" single is great exactly for the reasons
you mention.  (Except when I played the tape of it in my car -- my
door speakers have never been quite the same since...)

			"Be running up that building"

			 Doug

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 11:16:29 PST
From: jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes)
Subject: Re:  big 10" of RUTH

	Really-From: nessus (Doug Alan)

	Why does using all of the power of the medium provided provided
	by 12" singles imply that Kate has anything to learn about
	production of dance mixes?

Because we're not talking about using all the extra bandwidth of
a 12" (ever notice how the grooves are further apart? Does wonders for
the response of it ...) -- we're talking about the distortion that
results from this over production. I can hear it, and can even record
it as crosstalk when the track starts and ends. Witness, on the other
hand `I feel love / Johnny Remember me' by Bronski Beat / Marc Almond.

Now there is a really good re-mix. It, too, has a crescendo in the
signal strength, but it comes at the transition between the two songs
... which also doubles the beat into a frenzy and cues in the whole
band.

	Kate has said that she likes 12" singles specifically because
	they give her more dynamic range and bass response to work
	with.  I think that the 12" single is great exactly for the
	reasons you mention.

Well, fine, but it's a bitch to tape, and my tape deck has more
dynamic range and bass response than my turntable. I can just imagine
what that master looks like. Actually, I can hear it.

/jordan

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 14:39:39 EST
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: Re:  Won't this unleash some messages?

> From: CUTTER%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU

> My question is: What would be considered a KB "starter"?

Get either "The Dreaming" ('The best album ever recorded' --DA) or
"Hounds of Love".  Preferably both.

> In other words, what of KB's should I get first, and what should I
> absolutely avoid?

There is nothing by KB to avoid.  It's all great!  However, don't get
anything other than the two albums mentioned above until you already
have those two.  The reason for this is that earlier KB is an acquired
taste -- an acquired taste that you may not necessarily desire to
acquire unless you already love some of her other music.  Recent KB is
much different and is also an acquired taste (especially "The
Dreaming"), but you've already acquired the taste for this sort of
thing if you like Peter Gabriel.

> What is valuable if I see it lying in Second Coming Records, and what
> is a rip-off?

KB doesn't rip anyone off.  Import 12" singles can be rather expensive,
however.

			"Some say that knowledge is ha ho ho"

			 Doug

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 14:54:43 EST
From: David Oskard <dno@cvl.umd.edu>
Subject: band names vs. band quality


	I actually think there is a lot that can be told from a bands name
alone.  If a band has a creative name (i.e. what was it? Screaming Iguanas
in Love?) chances are that they are on the whole, making some creative
music (hopefully).  This doesn't always work of course, but having had
a radio show at U Md. for 3 years, I've found some of the most incredible
music just by pickin' em out, either by the album cover or the name of the
band.  That's how I found Pink Industry and Regressive Aid (does anyone
know the scoop on these guys?  --the record got stolen out of the studio
and then of course my quality (ahem) Memorex busted.)  

...and another thing.  An interesting name is much more fun to say over
the air--you can even get away with saying obscenities that way, not that
I would ever dream of such a transgression.  Hey, has anyone heard of
Delay Tactics?  They're Canadian I believe.

One last hint for all you risk-takers out there:  some of the most bizarre
musical noises are found on records with very minimalist album covers--this
may be due to the   bizarre == limited budget factor, but I must stop this
rambling don't you think?        later.......


			David (dno@cvl.umd.edu)

Be good or be otherwise.

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date:         Thu, 13 Mar 1986 16:33 EST
From: David M. Hardy <HAADAV@MITVMA>
Subject:      I didn't get flamed like this even in net.music!


> From: Jordan@ucbarpa.berkely.edu

> ... has become commonplace. Look, we're living in an immoral world,
> and I don't think you should project your morality on a group of
> people who you associate with by choice.
> That's called oppression.

Does living in an immoral world give you the right to be immoral???
I said nothing about morality.

If you think that I am 'projecting' 'morality' then you misinterpreted
what I said.  I am not forcing anything on anyone, merely STATING MY
OPINION.  My saying I don't like something is no different than people
saying they like it.  It's just an opposing view.  Do you really expect
that people are going to stop swearing just because I find it
objectionable and unnecessary??  I certainly don't.  I didn't tell anyone
to stop doing it;  I even said that probably NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN about
it.  And to call my opinion 'opression' is simply laughable.  (How do
you express a laugh on a computer.  A smiley face just won't do it.)

> ...                                    Being offensive is a right
> that I covet strongly. Notice that I don't implore you to swear ...

And you can go right on being offensive.  I also can go right on
disliking it, and either ignore it, or bring it up if I want to.  Why
did you take a GENERAL posting so PERSONALLY anyway??  You're not the
only offensive person in the world.  Did you think I was referring to
something you specifically said?  Actually I havn't kept count of who
swears and who doesn't.

> position of being adult enough that if you can't take the discussions
> going on here seriously that you would unsubscribe. I don't think we're

I already said once that I wasn't going to go away.  I guess it didnt
sink in.  I can take SOME of the discussions here quite seriously.
I've even gotten some music I liked from listening to what people say
here.  I don't think much of it in real life if someone talks like that,
and the same goes for here.

> Right, but you are trying to force a moral issue. That makes you a
> wimp, geek AND a weenie to boot.

Resorting to name calling?  And you had the audacity to mention 'adult'?
It's laugh time again..... And I already said once I'm not forcing
anything (Do you really think I could?)  And what's a weenie?  Are you
calling me a hotdog?  That could be taken as a compliment...

>>         Flames and obscenities to /dev/null...
> That's real brave of you. Throw in your two cents worth and then say
> "I won't listen to your side".

The reason I wrote the message I did is because I have ALREADY heard
enough of what the type of people who swear have to say.
Repeatedly.  If you want to flame me for stating my opinion
you go right ahead and continue doing it.  You won't change it no matter
how hard you try.  Neither will anyone else.  All of the things I said
are true for ME, and no amount of flaming will change them.
You can try if you like, but why not do it by personal mail?
I can't believe I actually have to EXPLAIN this.  There is no other side
to an opinion.   There are just different ones.

I feel that if I did not say anything about this, then many people would
assume that it was alright because it was happening and nobody DID say
anything about it.


> From: "James J. Lippard" <Lippard@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA>

> That's bull...., and this sentence is an illustration of why.

What is that supposed to mean?  The sentence in question is absolutely
true based on MY experiences.  Yours may differ. (just like highway mileage :-))
Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it any less true for me
and doesn't give me any less right to say it.

>                                                           I could have
> said "That's nonsense", but it would not have come across as strong and would
> not have adequately expressed what I wanted.

You have NOT adequately expressed yourself.  Using profanity did not
help you.  There are plenty of good words in the English language and I
don't understand the need to have to resort to and keep repeating the
same ones when you can't think of anything else to say.  But then again,
and this is something I shouldn't even have to say, that is MY opinion.
You didn't make any attempt to explain YOUR opinion on what was wrong
with the aforementioned sentence.

> BTW, David, in your message about Les Miserables, I was unable to tell that
> you considered it to be the best album of 1986 until you said so.  Saying that
> it's "highly recommended" and "very well worth it" and that you were "mostly
> impressed" doesn't make it sound all that great.  I think you could have
> expressed your opinion more strongly by using a good metaphor and still
> avoided vulgarity, but it would have been much easier just to say "it's

That's why I said so.  Although the part where I said I looked all over
Boston for it and was depressed at not finding it should have given you
some idea that it wasn't just any old record.  'Very well worth it' and
'Highly recommended' are high praise indeed for me.  To use profanity in
trying to describe it not only might offend prospective listeners but
would also degrade the character of my posting (notwithstanding the fact
that it may have no worth at all if nobody here likes musicals).
Like I said, I'm no language expert.  If I even know any good metaphors I
didn't think of one to use there.  But I still didn't have to resort to
the degradation of profanity.  I suppose profanity has some uses in times
of extreme pain or emotional distress, but certainly not in discussions
of music.

Remember, this is all just my opinion.  I hope somebody agrees that 'Les
Miserables' is whatever you want to call it to describe a wonderful piece
of music, and I know some people agree with my views on profanity, but
if you want to continue flaming me, let's not clutter up love-hounds with
it.

                                               >>> Dave

[][][][][][][][][][]

Date:         Thu, 13 Mar 1986 16:34 EST
From: David M. Hardy <HAADAV@MITVMA>
Subject:      I didn't come here for an argument.

}i
> From: hsut@ed.purdue.edu (Bill Hsu)

> David Hardy (paraphrase): Widespread use of obscenities shows a deficiency
>                                         in the ability to communicate

> I personally don't think that using obscenities has anything to do
> with somebody's ability to communicate. A much better benchmark is to
> see if they love convoluted sentences like mine :-) :-)

This was not the point of my posting, only one sentence in it.  But at
least the poster of this was able to explain himself without name calling
or more profanity.  This says something about communication to me right
away, and helps (at least to me) to emphasize some of what I said.

> Seriously, I've known people who write and talk brilliantly AND use
> lots of obscenities/profanities (e.g., Allen Ginsburg :-) :-) There's
> obviously no correlation between the two.

~rI'm not out to try and come up with a proof of some correlation; only
stating some observances of mine in the last few months or so.  That's a
correlation TO ME, obviously not to everyone.  It's very simple.  The
nicest, most interesting people I've talked to don't swear at me.

By the way, who is Allen Ginsburg?


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Subject: Rema Rema / CTwins (again?) / XTC
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 14:04:05 -0800
From: J. Peter Alfke <alfke@csvax.caltech.edu>


###########
# WARNING #	This message contains one (1) dirty word of the "s" variety.
###########

Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA writes:
>Up until this point, I didn't know
>of Big Black doing any covers but Albini kept referring
>to this Rema, Rema as if everyone should know what he was
>talking about.  Probably an inside joke ... I haven't the
>foggiest.     The label says Rema, Rema was written
>by someone named Rema Rema of whom I have never heard.

I don't know who/what Rema Rema is/are/was/were either, but the song
"Fond Affections" on the "This Mortal Coil" LP (most of which are
covers, performed by various people on the 4AD label) is listed as
having been written by him/her/them/it.

And "Fond Affections" sounds absolutely nothing like what you describe
that "Rema, Rema" song as sounding like . . . this is some horrible
in-joke that everyone knows about but me, right?  And you'll all start
laughing after I post this message, right?

************

"James J. Lippard" <Lippard@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA> writes:
>Are they named after Jean Cocteau, the French writer and Grand Master of
>the Prieure' de Sion ... ?

The Trouser Press Guide to New-Wave records states that "the name derives
from an old Simple Minds song".  Being unfamiliar with the Simple Minds'
old, presumably good, stuff that doesn't get played on the radio like their
new sh*t [yes, I do think that was the correct word], I have no idea
what they're talking about.  Does anyone know?  And where did the Simple
Minds get it from?

************

... and just to bring up a new topic, does anyone know the lowdown on
the fate of XTC ?  Last I heard, unsubstantiated rumor had it they'd
broken up due to Virgin kicking them out.  Can it be?  What a shame, as
the "Dukes of Statosphear" thingy was the best album they'd done since
"English Settlement" ...

						--Peter Alfke
						  alfke@csvax.caltech.edu

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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 15:28:10 PST
From: jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes)
Subject: Re:  I didn't get flamed like this ...

[ skip to the end for the musak question ]

	Really-From: David M. Hardy <HAADAV@MITVMA>

	It's very simple.  The nicest, most interesting people I've
	talked to don't swear at me.

Well, if I say "this is the best f*cking band i ever heard" and you say
"Hey -- he swore at me!" then we had better stop right here. Close your mind
to people who don't speak the way you want them to and you're losing
out.

	By the way, who is Allen Ginsburg?

I believe it's Ginsberg.

Beat-era poet; old friend of Jack Kerouac and William Burroughs; got a
little into bad-crazy drugs a while back and now is into poetry as a
means to political change; occasional rapper for The Clash :-) (read
some socio-politico-big-city-mean-government-lets-kill-the-contras
poem on "Sandinista!" ...).

	> From: Jordan@ucbarpa.berkely.edu

Next time you transcribe my writing, try spelling berkelEy correctly
and why did you capitalize my login name? I sign my postings in lower
case, why did you change it? No big deal, just curious.

	> ... has become commonplace. Look, we're living in an immoral world,
	> and I don't think you should project your morality on a group of
	> people who you associate with by choice.
	> That's called oppression.

	Does living in an immoral world give you the right to be immoral???

RIGHT to be IMMORAL ?

Give me a break.

	I said nothing about morality.

Bullsh*t.

	If you think that I am 'projecting' 'morality' then you
	misinterpreted what I said.  I am not forcing anything on
	anyone, merely STATING MY OPINION.

Look. You came out here and started flamming about people who were
"obscene" and how you can't take them seriously and then you pleaded
for "us" to stop. I'd say that's projecting.

	Why did you take a GENERAL posting so PERSONALLY anyway??
	You're not the only offensive person in the world.

I don't recall taking your posting personally. However, I think that
the label "general" is a bit deceiving. Can you really expect that you
can say something to everyone (i.e., the whole list) and yet to no
one?

Besides, you said that you couldn't take seriously anyone who couldn't
express themselves without using "those words" ... well, I count myself
among the group you list as the target for your words. Therefore, I
will address my thoughts to you on that basis.

When I address this list, I address each reader personally, although not
by name.

	> Right, but you are trying to force a moral issue. That makes
	> you a wimp, geek AND a weenie to boot.

	Resorting to name calling?  And you had the audacity to mention
	'adult'?  It's laugh time again..... And I already said once
	I'm not forcing anything (Do you really think I could?)  And
	what's a weenie?  Are you calling me a hotdog?  That could be
	taken as a compliment...

I couldn't believe (and still can't) that you would suffix your moral
majority trash with a "and I'm not a geek, I just don't like to read
those naughty words" ... what kind of statement is that? I called you a
weenie just because of that statement. As for the connotation of a
weenie, we have these interesting things in English (perhaps not
*king's* english ...) called idioms. See, that lets us give arbitrary
tags to concepts without being suffocated by purists. Arbitraryness is
what makes languages different from pictograms and idiograms.

Grow up.

	>>         Flames and obscenities to /dev/null...
	> That's real brave of you. Throw in your two cents worth and
	> then say "I won't listen to your side".

	The reason I wrote the message I did is because I have ALREADY
	heard enough of what the type of people who swear have to say.

Then what on earth did you hope to prove by your posting?

	If you want to flame me for stating my opinion you go right
	ahead and continue doing it.  You won't change it no matter how
	hard you try.  Neither will anyone else.  All of the things I
	said are true for ME, and no amount of flaming will change
	them.

That's terrific. I don't want to change you. But I won't have you
telling me what to do or say. That's my reaction to it. People tell me
what to do, and I tell them to f*ck off. Try expressing that without
`f*ck'.

	You have NOT adequately expressed yourself.  Using profanity
	did not help you.  There are plenty of good words in the
	English language and I don't understand the need to have to
	resort to and keep repeating the same ones when you can't think
	of anything else to say.

I don't think this is true at all. Language is an ineffective
descriptive system. Read a little Jacques Derida and then come talk to
me. Repeating ones I've already used because I can't think of anything
else to say? I can't believe you are saying things like this.

	Like I said, I'm no language expert.

Q.E.D.

A friend of mine was in a 24-hour store near Cambridge when the guy in
front of him walked into the express line (6 items or less) with 9
things. The girl ("women" we usta call 'em...) behind the register said
"So, do you go to Harvard and can't count or MIT and can't read?"

This makes much more sense now.

Maybe you could take one of Chomsky's classes over there, right?

Have fun on your VM system.

jordan "sarcastic bastard" hayes

ps: oh - the music element in this posting: why did I wait so long
    to buy the Billy Bragg album that I heard a year ago? Damn.

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Date: Thu 13 Mar 86 15:53:14-PST
From: Bob Knight <KNIGHT@SRI-NIC.ARPA>
Subject: Obscenity.

I think it's pretty damned obscene to flame on a music mailing list.
That's why net.music got the big u from me a while back (after I posted an
appropriately obscene message.  Didn't even get flamed for it privately,
which tells me it WAS appropriate and might have even come close to its
target).

At any rate, can we can the argument?  Those of us who are sleazeballs
are gonna remain so, and those of us who get offended at sleazeballs'
language habits are gonna remain offended.  Me, my give-a-sh*tter's broke.

On to something I've been meaning to post for awhile.  Just got the Sandy
Denny boxed set Who Knows Where The Time Goes.  Four records of amazing
stuff.  Absolutely must've been a labor of love by Trevor Lucas (her
husband), Richard Thompson, etc.  I damn near cried listening to all this
neat stuff and reading the lyrics and looking at the pictures.

Now I gotta admit I'm a big Sandy Denny fan.  Have been for years.  But I
think this is one fine introduction to her music for someone who isn't
familiar with it, and well worth the $20 I laid out for it.  Check it out.
It's great music, even if it is "folkie sh*t"...

Bob
-------

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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 19:29:42 EST
From: hsut@ed.purdue.edu (Bill Hsu)



To echo Shelli's plea, enough already, please cool it! Don't let this
become another net.music.

Sorry I spelled Allen Ginsberg's name wrong. Boy, have I been
embarrassing myself lately. Let's see: Ginsberg, Ginsberg, Ginsberg...


Re: XTC! One of my favorites before MUMMER. Somehow XTC isn't very
convincing without the toughness of BLACK SEA (or even English Settlement).
DUKES OF THE STRATOSPHERE, for you non-XTC fans, is a fake psychedelic
mini-album. I find it great fun, tho no classic like BLACK SEA. Maybe
Andy Partridge just got tired of jagged guitar figures and vicious
anti-dance rhythms...

				Bill Hsu

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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 16:54:36 PST
From: jordan@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu (Jordan Hayes)
Subject: Andy Partridge ...

	Really-From: hsut@ed.purdue.edu (Bill Hsu)

	Maybe Andy Partridge just got tired of jagged guitar figures
	and vicious anti-dance rhythms...

I hear he's just too scared to come out of his apartment ...

/jordan

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Date:     Thu, 13 Mar 86 17:02:42 EST
From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA
Subject:  Flippancy, gossip and Ed Asner's Gay.

$$ On my mystery tape trading partner: 
Wrong-o, Jordan, guess again or ask Doug - he guessed it correctly
and will be recieving one four cent stamp and a penny by email...

$$ From a guy who's header I deleted: 
> "The safety pin returns my smile, I nod a brief hello,
>  While you are building molecules with your garden hoe." - Beatles

Speaking of the Beatles, I heard from the guitarist from our local
one-hit band, The Ravyns, that he heard it personally from Jeff
Beck, former Yardbyrd guitarist, that he feels the Beatles suck
because "they don't play rock and roll."  Ho-hum...

$$ From Doug:
> ("Flucking" isn't obscene it?)  
Only if your a chicken.  Why?


>From another guy who's header I deleted:
> Be good or be otherwise.
Keep your cool and follow the rules.


The Butthole Surfers on the Texan scene:

"There's this band called Ed Asner's Gay that does an acoustic
set in lime-green leisure suts with cheesy padding and they're
all wearing latex masks that look like Ed Asner;  they're great
they run around like bumper cars."

stay tuned for more ...

Jim


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Date:     Thu, 13 Mar 86 17:18:55 EST
From: Hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA
Subject:  Flirting With Disaster (sonic youth discography)

I really don't want to put my "two cents" in about profanity
vs. censoring BUT I've been meaning for awhile to write 
some "fanzine drivel" about one of my favorite bands these days
and find it a bit hard not to use certain words since alot of
their albums have what some would consider profanity in the
titles.  So, if you find the use of profanity in a posting
discussing music distasteful - PLEASE CLOSE YOUR EYES!!!
TURN YOUR TERMINAL OFF!!!  TAKE 3 BOWS TOWARDS THE EAST AND
PROSTRATE YOURSELF IN FRONT OF ... whoops, got carried away
there ... 

I want to say something about the Sonic Youth.  They've
been together for over 4 years now and have been through as
many drummers.  Their current lineup is the core guitarist and
bassist/songwriters/singers/husband and wife team of Thurston
Moore and Kim Gordon.  Also serving on an apparently permanent basis
is guitarist Lee Renaldo.  Their current drummer is ex-Crucif*ck Steve 
Shelley.  If you didn't know already, they've left Homestead for 
SST after the majors rejected them despite Robert Palmer of the 
New York Times raving that given enough studio support, they could 
become the next Beatles.  (Cosloy (owner of Homestead) sent some promos and
the Palmer clipping to some majors who reportedly wrote back, "are
you sure you have the right band here?")

How to describe their music?  It has the same rawness and intensity
of early 80's hardcore that's for sure.  And they reject the use
of complex machines  to make noise or sounds, instead relying as
they put it "on their heads" by sticking drumsticks and rods into
their guitars.  They also experiment with strange guitar tunings
(EGBDFE instead of the standard EADGBE) and collaborate with
Lydia Lunch, Airto Lindsay and Glenn Branca.  In many ways, they
are as gothic as The Fall but not in the fey, English manner.  They're
more like Swamp Thing (excellent comic book) meets CCR.  If you want 
a good introduction, check out the Death Valley EP of last year.  Be 
forewarned, this EP plays at 45 RPM on the title side and 33 RPM on 
the other side, though I sometimes adjust it for my mood ... leaving 
you with four possible ways (if you just have 45 and 33 settings) to listen
to this gem.  I wonder, Doug, do you do this with Kate? -:-)

Here's a discography  (sans collaborations and compilations)

Sonic Youth [ Neutral Records EP, 1982 ]
Confusion is Sex [ Neutral EP, 1983 ]
Kill Yr Idols [ Zensor Records EP, 1984 ]
"Death Valley `69'" b/w "Brave Men Run" [ Irredescence Records 7", 1984 ]
Sonic Death [ Excstatic Peace Cassette, 1984 ]
Bad Moon Rising [ Homestead LP, 1985 ]
Death Valley [ Homestead EP, 1985 ]
"Making the Nature Scene" b/w with "I Killed 
Christgau with My Big F*cking Dick" [ Forced Exposure, 1985 ]
"Flower" b/w "Halloween"  [ Homestead 12", Feb 86 ]
... I haven't heard the above yet - has anyone else?  Bill? ...
E.V.O.L. (tentative title - anyone know what it means?) [SST (!!!), June '86]

The only difference between the DV Homestead EP (or so I've been told) and
the Irredescence 7" title track is that Lydia Lunch is overdubbed singing/
screaming al la Exene Cervanka ... The Death Valley Homestead release
comes with a mighty fine interview in the lyric sheet and liner notes.

If anyone has heard the first three releases as well as the cassette,
I'd like to hear from you.

----
more from the Buttholes:
Interviewer:  What kind of sound do you get?
Paul:  You could call it a link between psychic space travel and 
bowel movements.
Gibby:  It's sort of wipe-abilly.

stay tuned for even more mayhem and madness....

Jim

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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 86 23:54:37 EST
From: hsut@ec.purdue.edu (Tsun-Yuk Hsu)
Subject: Re: Sonic Youth



Thanks to Jim Hofmann for the Sonic Youth discography! Despite making sly
asides all the time about how great Sonic Youth is, I only have one
of their albums (which gets played ALOT), Bad Moon Rising. It still blows
me away everytime I put it on. I do have the song "Halloween", but from
the compilation album A Diamond Hidden in the Mouth of a Dead Man
(Giorno Poetry Systems) with great groups like Sonic Youth, Carbaret Voltaire,
David Johannsen, Coil, and spoken pieces from William Burroughs and
Michael Gira (of the Swans?) I didn't think much of Halloween; it was
nice, but not up to the high standards I expected after Bad Moon Rising.
It's been awhile since I've heard it, so I should probably listen to it again
before making rash dismissals...

One of Christgau's few redeeming features: in his ballot for the Voice's
poll, he actually listed Sonic Youth's anti-Christgau song!! At least
the guy has a sense of humor...

I don't think Sonic Youth sounds much like early hardcore, but what do I 
know about early hardcore... they do truly amazing things with their
guitars: they ring like bells or mangle your speakers with the feedback.
I'll have to write Homestead for more Sonic Youth sometime...


				"Society is a hole
				 It makes me lie to my friends"

				 Bill Hsu

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Date:     Fri, 14 Mar 86  01:28:13 EST
From: JURGEN%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Local UMass address is
  Ziggy Cyber@Mailer.CY175)
Subject:  Peter Gabriel/profanity

Cutter,

        Peter Gabriel's new album (i don't know what it's called) is scheduled
to come out in June i think. He is also going to tour after or coinciding with
the release. ...

About profanity in this list..

        This is a list about progressive music. Fact is that while a lot of
the music discussed here wouldn't be called punk, as we could see from recent
discussion, most of the participants here are familiar with groups like the
"Butthole Sufers". Trademark of progressive music & punk is that it is often
trying to make a unique statement of individuality, and shock value is one
aspect of that. You may not agree that it is a very valid form of expression,
but i say profanity has its finer points. heh. ...
        Anyway, you would find that a lot of the people of the kind
who send to this file use profanity heavily in their every-day language,
and it would be only stupid pretentionism for anyone to stop doing the same
when writing to the digest. And pretentionism and other such fake behavior is
one of the prime targets of punk rock lyriks, as most of us well know. Again,
just look at the ongoing discussion about The Butthole surfers.
        So, while i myself don't tend to be overly obscene, especially when
i am writing, i would not even think of telling else anyone not to.

                                   see you on the bitstream
                                        - Ziggy Cyber

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Date:     Fri, 14 Mar 86  02:04:29 EST
From: Serling%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU  (Living in the Twilight
  Zone <Serling%UMass.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>)
Subject:  A few questions..


1) In reading this digest, I've seen a number of *gag*'s in reference to
   'trashy' music magazines. Are there ANY resepectable ones out there?
   My local record store gets Melody Maker from England, and I'm told
   it's pretty good.

2) I've taken to Shriekback the minute I picked up their latest album.
   In my travels, here's what I've picked up:

   Care <LP>
   The Infinite <LP>
   Jam Science <LP>
   Oil and Gold <LP>
   Sexthinkone <EP off of their 1st album, Tench, which I've never heard>
   Mercy Dash <Picture disc EP>
   Nemesis <EP>
   Fish Below the Ice <Dbl EP>
   Sex and Knowledge and Wealth and Power <I think that's the title>
   <A 6-track mini>
   and one other off of Care whose name escapes me...

   I am also aware of the existance of a completely different version of
   Jam Science, which came about due to producer problems. Can anyone
   give me some history of he band, and perhaps fill in anything I'm not
   aware of?

3) Due to my nature, being a fan of a band envokes within me the desire to
   obtain everything they've done. Are there any places one can find a disco-
   graphy? <Partial of otherwise> I've seen some interesting guides in my
   searches, but nothing terribly current <like up to 82 if I'm lucky>
   Any references?

"Kiss me stupid, love me dead..."
                                         Mitch

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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 86 03:40:58 EST
From: nessus (Doug Alan)
Subject: Phonetics and Skreikback

Speaking of Shriekback, the lyrics to "Oil and Gold" on the lyric
sheet are written in some strange phonetic alphabet.  Does anyone know
where this particular phonetic alphabet came from or was it just
invented for the lyric sheet?

			"Love has no meaning
			 Not where they come from"

			 Doug


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-- 
It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under.

Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, allegra, gatech, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
gds@eddie.mit.edu