🚀 go-pugleaf

Why buy a Diesel at all ??

Pro:

1) Good Gas Mileage
2) You get to eat at Truck Stops (?)

Con:

1) You pay a premium to get the D (is this still true ?)
2) Savings at the pump are almost zero on a per gallon basis
3) Terrible Acceleration
4) Excessive Engine Noise (admittedly subjective)
5) Below average resale
6) Design problems caused by bastardization of gas/diesel engines

Conclusion:

You are left with the gas mileage savings to amortize the premium
over the car life while you pray the sucker holds together.


Unless you are an over the road sales person who really racks up
the miles, why buy one ??

Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}

****                                                                 ****
From the keys of Steve Henning, AT&T Bell Labs, Reading, PA mhuxl!smh

> Why buy a Diesel at all ??
> Pro:
> 1) Good Gas Mileage
> Con:
> 1) You pay a premium to get the D (is this still true ?)
> 2) Savings at the pump are almost zero on a per gallon basis
> 
> You are left with the gas mileage savings to amortize the premium
> over the car life while you pray the sucker holds together.

I considered paying a $2000 premium to get a Volvo diesel.  Considering
I drive a car 120,000 miles and would get 25 mpg of gas versus 40 mpg of
diesel, a diesel would save me 1,800 gallons or about $1,800.  Thus a net
loss of $200.  Needless to say I didn't go the diesel route.

In article <2052@akgua.UUCP> rjb@akgua.UUCP (rjb) writes:
>Why buy a Diesel at all ??
I was talking with the airport-limo driver on my last trip; his company
drives big station wagons equipped with Buick small-truck diesel engines.
>Pro:
>1) Good Gas Mileage
He said they get about 35-40 mpg, instead of the 8 mpg such things
usually get.  That's about 700 miles / tank of fuel.
>Con:
>3) Terrible Acceleration
Wasn't too bad, and it did OK on the Jersey Turnpike.
>4) Excessive Engine Noise (admittedly subjective)
Well, a bit.
>5) Below average resale
But the suckers often last 300K miles, though they're driven in a much
different environment than I normally encounter.
>Conclusion:
>You are left with the gas mileage savings to amortize the premium
>over the car life while you pray the sucker holds together.
>Unless you are an over the road sales person who really racks up
>the miles, why buy one ??
-- 
# Bill Stewart, AT&T Bell Labs 2G-202, Holmdel NJ 1-201-949-0705 ihnp4!ho95c!wcs

I think that all diesels should be required by law to have exhaust stacks
at least 6 feet above the roof of the vehicle or say a minimum of 10 or
12 feet in the air.  Most semis already do this.  The problem with
diesel cars are not in the car but in having to sit behind one at a stop
light.  They step on the accelerator and you can't see or breath for
the next block or two.  In a car at least you can roll up the windows
but motorcycles put you right where the action is.  If the exhaust exited
up high it would at least have time to diffuse a little before being
inhaled.

					Mike Nelson
					ihuxf!cuda

>From the keys of Steve Henning, AT&T Bell Labs, Reading, PA mhuxl!smh
>
>[...]
>
>I considered paying a $2000 premium to get a Volvo diesel.  Considering
>I drive a car 120,000 miles and would get 25 mpg of gas versus 40 mpg of
>diesel, a diesel would save me 1,800 gallons or about $1,800.  Thus a net
>loss of $200.  Needless to say I didn't go the diesel route.

Do you really think that gas will cost $1.00 a gallon for the entire
120,000 miles? I'd guess at an average price of $2-$4 or even more for
that period of time. Gas already costs at least $2/gal in most of the
world. And *very* much more in some places.

Trevor J. Smedley                    University of Waterloo

{decvax,allegra,ihnp4,clyde,utzoo}!watmum!tjsmedley

All right, I am sick of all these slams of diesel cars.  I drive a diesel
pickup (Mazda) and am quite happy with it.  Here are some advantages:

Terrific gas mileage.  Yours will vary.
Rock solid reliability.  ALWAYS starts, NEVER stalls.
Simplicity.  There are almost no emission controls on my engine (an 83).
    The only one is a hose (no valve even) for positive crankcase ventilation.
    In five years when your gasoline car starts running poorly, which of the
    1000 little vacuum hoses will you suspect is leaking or clogged and
    confusing some intricate part of the emission control system which even
    your mechanic doesn't understand.

Some features to look for when buying one:

Make sure the engine was originally designed as a diesel.

Diesels are very sensitive to water in the fuel.  The car should have 
a sedimentor mounted near the fuel tank to collect any water or dirt which
settles to the bottom of the tank.  Drain this regularly.

The fuel filter should look like an engine oil filter (BIG).  If your car
didn't come with one, install one.

Get as many gears as you can.  The power range of a diesel engine is limited.
I have a 5 speed and could really use a 6th for freeway cruising.
Forget about an automatic.

Don't expect quick acceleration, you will be disappointed and will create lots
of smelly black smoke trying.

There are two oil filters on my engine, the second one just comes into
play if the bypass valve on the primary filter opens. 

The glow plugs stay on at 1/2 power after the engine is started to 
help it run smoother when cold and to help it warm up faster.

Steve Weil
entropy!dataio!weil

> I think that all diesels should be required by law to have exhaust stacks
> at least 6 feet above the roof of the vehicle or say a minimum of 10 or
> 12 feet in the air.  Most semis already do this.  The problem with
> diesel cars are not in the car but in having to sit behind one at a stop
> light.  They step on the accelerator and you can't see or breath for
> the next block or two.

Diesel fumes smell like roses compared to the toxic waste that I
have inhaled from large new looking cars on very cold days.  I don't
know whether it's poor design, poor maintenance, or poor gas, but
something makes these things emit fumes that smell like something
that died a week ago, burn your eyes, and send you into a coughing
fit.  Maybe the exhaust should exit in front of the car -:) .  That
way the owners would either maintain them better or get something
less offensive!

-- 

Warren Montgomery,  ihesa!warren

>I think that all diesels should be required by law to have exhaust stacks
>at least 6 feet above the roof of the vehicle or say a minimum of 10 or
>12 feet in the air.  Most semis already do this.  The problem with
>diesel cars are not in the car but in having to sit behind one at a stop
>light.  They step on the accelerator and you can't see or breath for
>the next block or two...
>					Mike Nelson

Gosh, Mike, I think you MUST be talking about those American diesels:-). My
dad's 300D puffs smoke only when you REALLY step on it (usu. highway passing),
and even then, the volume of the smoke is small (a cloud about the size of ...
a portable 12" [30cm] TV set).  Smell? Well, it DOES smell (doesn't everything?)
but it smells a LOT nicer than the exhaust from our 81-model European (non- 
Diesel) sedan, whose emission-controlled exhaust consistently makes me gag.

 - Dennis

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Dennis Richards                R:"Batman, there's a Polaris-type missile headed
 Faculty of Mathematics            straight at us!"
 University of Waterloo         B:"Hang on, Robin, this might be tricky."

    UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utzoo,clyde}!watmath!watnot!dbrichards
    CSNET: dbrichards%watnot@waterloo.CSNET
    ARPA:  dbrichards%watnot%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA

There have been far too many dual postings, (net.auto &net.auto.tech)
of late. Please remember why the "tech" group was created, and notice
that the number of real technical contributors has trickled off, just
as it did  in the beginning with net.auto. By survey, it appears that
many people read both groups anyway, so rest assured that your important
opinions and recollections will get the audience they seek, even though
they be posted only in net.auto.

In article <11398@watnot.UUCP> dbrichards@watnot.UUCP (the vegit man) writes:
>
>Gosh, Mike, I think you MUST be talking about those American diesels:-). My
>dad's 300D puffs smoke only when you REALLY step on it (usu. highway passing),
>and even then, the volume of the smoke is small (a cloud about the size of ...
>a portable 12" [30cm] TV set).  Smell? Well, it DOES smell (doesn't everything?)
>but it smells a LOT nicer than the exhaust from our 81-model European (non- 
>Diesel) sedan, whose emission-controlled exhaust consistently makes me gag.
>
> - Dennis

Gee, Dennis, who at home gets to wash the circular scum marks off the
left-rear of the Benz?  :-)

Batman: "Robin, I think it's because our hearts are pure..."

-dave
-- 
David Hsu	Communication & Signal Processing Lab, EE Department
<disclaimer>	University of Maryland,  College Park, MD 20742
hsu@eneevax.umd.edu  {seismo,allegra}!umcp-cs!eneevax!hsu  CF522@UMDD.BITNET
"Vern Vern Vern Vern Vern Vern Vern, you've done it now, buddy..."
			-Ernest P. Worrell

[]

bruce@dciem.UUCP (Bruce Ferguson)  writes:

>  There have been far too many dual postings, (net.auto &net.auto.tech)
>  of late. Please remember why the "tech" group was created...

I'd agree completely.  It can't be *that* hard to figure out in which group
a posting should appear.

>  By survey, it appears that many people read both groups anyway, so 
>  rest assured that your important opinions and recollections will get 
>  the audience they seek, even though they be posted only in net.auto.

True - but let's not take this to mean, then, that there's no need to
have the two groups.  The point of forming the tech group was not entirely
that some of us didn't want to read about non-tech topics.   There were
other reasons, as well.  Even though an individual may read both, it works
*much, much* better to have the topical areas separate - it is easier
and more coherent to follow discussions over time, for instance, when
you're not hopping, bouncing, weaving, and wading your way through a mixture of
tech and non-tech articles.

Can we try harder??

[This one dual-posted for obvious reasons :-)  ]

Mark Bernstein  (UT - Austin, Speech)

In article <1611@hound.UUCP> rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes:
>[]
>>...are the european diesels better?
>
>You bet they are.
>In addition to mileage delivered, you can expect extended engine
>life. The thing is, you can't just throw any old design together
>and expect more than a GM disaster.  Spend many years at it and
>you, too, can design a VW diesel.
>
>-- 
>
>"It's the thought, if any, that counts!"  Dick Grantges  hound!rfg


The VW diesel engine was not designed  as a  `real' diesel,  but is a
conversion of the gasoline engine introduced  with the  Rabbit in the
mid 70's (just as the early GM auto  diesels were  conversions).  The
European auto manufacturers that utilize diesel engines designed from
the  ground  up as  diesels (and  distribute them  in the  U.S.)  are
Mecedes  Benz,  Peugot,  and Volvo  (I'm not  sure about  the new BMW
diesel).  These `real' diesel can deliver extremely  long engine life
provided they are cared for properly, though parts and  labor tend to
be VERY expensive.  

I owned a `78 diesel Rabbit for eight years  and 150,000  miles.  The
rings  started  to  allow  substantial  compression  blowby at 80,000
miles.  At 100,000 miles one cylinder lost  its rings  entirely.  The
engine was diligently maintained and cared for (I  grew up  on a farm
...  I know how to care/maintain/rebuild  diesel engines).   When the
earlier  VW  diesels  developed substantial  compression blowby, they
tended to pick up oil from the overhead cam and blow it  into the air
intake (via the crankcase ventilation), causing  a `runaway' (diesels
can run on motor oil, imagine doing  65mph and  accelerating down the
freeway with your foot OFF the  accelerator, at  the head  of a black
cloud).    This was  enough of  a problem  that VW  ordered a factory
recall that  inserted a  baffle in  the crankcase  ventilator hose to
slow down the air velocity (thus reducing the amount of oil picked up
off the cam).  Of course this didn't solve the real  problem, it just
caused  the  compression  blowby  to  find  an  alternate route, like
blowing  the  oil stick  out.   But it  at least  solved VW's lawsuit
problem with VW diesel owners.  

If I ever get another diesel, it will be a `75 Mecedes Benz 240D.

			Phil Bonesteele
			FileNet Corp.
			Costa Mesa, CA
			{ucbvax,decvax,hplabs}!trwrb!felix!pwb

(discussion about how most people read both groups anyway)
               .
               .
               .
              etc.
[]
  Please keep in mind that there are also a few of us that don't want to
have anything to do with driving legalities, radar detector legislation,
road rules, etc.  In other words, we don't read net.auto, just net.auto.tech.
That's my two-cents worth...thanks for listening...

-- 
     Adrian Zannin
     SUNY at Buffalo Computer Science

..{bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksvax,watmath,sbcs}!sunybcs!ugzannin
CSNET:    ugzannin@Buffalo.CSNET
ARPANET:  ugzannin%Buffalo@csnet-relay.ARPA
BITNET:   ugzannin@sunybcs.BITNET