🚀 go-pugleaf

Karen Toombs <ktoombs@idt.net> wrote:
>Perhaps this is true in certain sectors of the population - I don't know.  My
>immediate concern is on the elementary school level, where I see a good number of
>kids in 3 and 4th grade wearing baggies.  Though I'm sure that they're not
>involved with drugs, it doesn't look good. 

To whom? Just because you don't like a fashion trend doesn't mean that
it's not appealing. 

> Usually, these same kids have an
>'attitude' whereby when they get older, you wouldn't be terribly surprised to find
>them getting into trouble.

Sorry, but the baggy pants have only been around for a few years now.
Any fourth grader who was wearing baggy pants probably isn't into high
school yet, much less "getting into trouble."

>  If they were taught at this age that appearance does
>indeed count, and not permitted to wear certain types of clothing at certain
>times, the issues might not be so great for them in the upper school. 

And what if you prefer to teach your children that appearances DON'T
count? That it doesn't matter what you look like but what is in your
heart?

> If people
>dress one way to go to church or synagogue, why can't a similar standard be set
>for school?

And what if you prefer to NOT fill your children's heads with
pie-in-the-sky bullshit and therefore don't send them to church or
synagogue? Then the standard is the same all the time -- they can wear
what they want to wear since they're going to have to make their own
decisions some day. 

>  And what of all the private schools requiring uniforms?  I think that
>they turn out a large percentage of very successful adults.

Two questions here:
1) how do you know that they turn out a large percentage of "very
successful adults?"
2) what is your definition of "very successful?"

>>
>>
>> Yeah, schools are in trouble.  Making it a little boot camp isn't going to
>> make it any better.

>How did we get from tucking in  a shirt, and wearing a shirt with a collar, to
>boot camp?

How did we determine that wearing a shirt with a collar causes one to
become successful?


>> Shouldn't school be a fun place?  Uniforms aren't comfortable, which is going
>> to impair the good kids from learning more than if they were casually dressed.
>> I'm more productive at work when I get to come in casual.

>School is a fun place.  The stuff the kids are doing now makes it more like going
>to camp than school.  Even wearing uniforms, which I am not advocating
>(necessarily) would not diminish the enjoyment.  If kids wore, for the sake of
>arguement, blue pants or skirts and white shirts with collars, with the shirts
>tucked in, they would still be dressed comfortably.  They don't need to wear sweat
>pants and oversized T shirts to be comfortable.  School is not the place for that
>kind of attire.

Why not? What is it about CLOTHING that impairs the learning process?
>>
>>
>> You can't judge a book by its cover, and the bad apples are always going to
>> be there.

>True, true.  And the really bad ones, which can be counted on one hand in my
>school, will continue to be so, even dressed in a suit and tie.  The kids who
>would benefit the most are the ones who eventually will come to understand the
>reasoning behind proper attire, and come to value it.

You're going to have to explain the reasoning behind "proper attire"
to me before *I* can understand and value it, much less expect me to
pass that nonsense on to my children.

>You're off on a tangent.  Of course there are some very bright people who can't
>spell - that's a good reason for SpellCheck.  The point, however, is that things
>have become so lax in the classroom, and discipline is so difficult to maintain,
>that often the kids come out without the necessary education.

Discipline and self control are not the result of wearing certain
outfits. If uniforms taught self-control, there'd be no recidivism.
All prisoners wear uniforms. Self-control is taught when one is small
and reinforced throughout life. Children have a hard time controlling
themselves in class because ofttimes they haven't had a decent
breakfast, don't have a parent in the home during their formative
years to teach them that particular family's values, and because their
own parents don't have any clue as to what kind of person they'd like
to turn out in 20 years. If you have a baby, send it to daycare when
it's six weeks old, then off to school, you have no right to bitch
about children who aren't well educated, and have no discipline.
You're the problem, and uniforms are not the solution.


Tarla

*****
Most civilization is based on cowardice.  It's so easy to 
civilize by teaching cowardice.You water down the standards
which would lead to bravery.You restrain the will.You regulate
the appetites.  You fence in the horizons.You make a law for 
every movement.  You deny the existence of chaos.You teach 
even the children to breathe slowly.You tame."-Frank Herbert
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