🚀 go-pugleaf

Obwon wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:12:45 -0700, wrcowan1@hal-pc.org
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>>Chris wrote:
>>
>>><wrcowan1@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
>>>news:43265b44$0$10624$a726171b@news.hal-pc.org...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Chris wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>><wrcowan1@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
>>>>>news:4323ad0d$0$10631$a726171b@news.hal-pc.org...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Chris wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>><wrcowan1@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:43226971$0$10624$a726171b@news.hal-pc.org...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Obwon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"They won't let
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>anyone in there. You have to be FEMA-certified and I am
>>>>>>>>>not," he said.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Do you have a clue why you need to be certified by FEMA?  It is so
>>>
>>>that
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>your actions are coordinated with others and that you understand the
>>>>>>>>scope of tasks being dealt with.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>When a tragedy or disaster occurs in Arizona, trained,
>>>>>>>>>skilled people are allowed to help without Federal
>>>>>>>>>Emergency Management Agency certification, he said.
>>>>>>>>>"But when a national disaster is in effect, federal
>>>>>>>>>rules take over and FEMA would have to approve it,"
>>>>>>>>>said Dudelston.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Once the storm has past, Federal agencies do get involved.  They do
>>>
>>>not
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>want everyone to rush down to give aid, it would create anarchy and
>>>>>>>>dangerous situations.  That is the same that applies with state agency
>>>>>>>>runned efforts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"It's kind of sad people are being turned away, the
>>>>>>>>>minute they go into a federal situation, they just
>>>>>>>>>can't get in there," he said. "The problem is when
>>>>>>>>>something like this happens - when an area is declared
>>>>>>>>>a national disaster - you can't go in there. They don't
>>>>>>>>>know them (trained volunteers) from Adam, so they can't
>>>>>>>>>let them in," he said of federal officials.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>This statements is true of both Federal and State agencies.  To allow
>>>>>>>>everyone who wants to provide relief efforts in to a disaster zone
>>>>>>>>invites disaster and poses potential hazards for not only those being
>>>>>>>>helped but to those who are doing the helping.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>These agencies have to impose control over the area so that relief
>>>>>>>>efforts are coordinated and effective without putting the lives of
>>>
>>>those
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>helping in harms way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>MRC
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yeah, great way to coordinate help, by denying it to anyone....well at
>>>>>
>>>>>least
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>it was coordinated denial...kinda like the current administration...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You have no clue as to what it takes to coordinate a relief operation do
>>>>>>you or any type of operation involving personnel and supplies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Your vapid response is proof of your ignorance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>MRC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>And your insistance to wait until everything is perfect before doing
>>>>>anything is proof that you haven't got a clue. There are always problems
>>>
>>>in
>>>
>>>
>>>>>a relief effort, you solve them as they come up while still providing
>>>
>>>some
>>>
>>>
>>>>>kind of help, you don't wait on the sidelines hoping to get all your
>>>
>>>ducks
>>>
>>>
>>>>>in a row...it will never happen and you are just wasting time and lives
>>>>>while trying. Don't be so stupid all of your life...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, I do not say wait until everything is perfect but you can not allow
>>>>just every joe into the area to help.  There are state and federal
>>>>agencies that can help and do it well.  If you look back on this
>>>>situation this operation went well on the federal side of things when
>>>>you compare it to other Cat 4 or 5 hurricanes.  The Feds responded
>>>>quicker when compared to Hugo and Andrew (other cat 4 and 5 hurricanes).
>>>> The Red Cross counld not do anything since they were blocked by State
>>>>officials (i,e. troopers snd Guardsmen)
>>>>
>>>>MRC
>>>
>>>
>>>When people are dying you let in the devil himself if need be to ease their
>>>suffering. FUCK protocol and start saving lives you heartless bastard....
>>
>>
>>It is not protocol, it is using time, material and personnel wisely to 
>>effectively help the most people.  Your emotional response shows that 
>>you would be a walking disaster if allowed to do relief operations.
>>
>>MRC
> 
> 
>   So then, you really do believe that it's wiser to let
> people dehydrate and starve while you sit with your
> pencil and paper,  and try to figure out what the most
> efficient/effective way to feed them will be.  Well,
> by the time you get things in an order,  satisfactory
> only to yourself,  there will be less of a need for
> that food and water,  you see,  a whole lot of people
> you intend to serve will be dead.  What a loon.

NO sir, that is a miscaharacterization.  What I have said and have been 
advocating is that inorder for any effective rescue or relief operation 
to take place, you have to have the ability to control the personell in 
the area, the ability to direct the personell, the ability to gather 
material and the ability to disperse the material.  The red cross was on 
the scence and is a first responder organization.  They have personnel 
and material to use.  They were prevented by the State.  If there is no 
effective control you would have instances like three wal-mart trucks 
coming in and distributing material to an area that already recieved 
material.  That would be a waste of material that could have gone 
elsewhere where it was needed.  If the red cross had control of the 
wal-mart personell and resources it could be directed to where a need 
exists.




> 
>    You let that food in!  No matter what your visions
> of orderly/effciency are,  it's not going to work as
> you plan.  Professionals know that,  is why they only
> do the most superficial planning,  get the food into
> the area and let the people on the ground do as they
> see fit.  

No one every said that plans work perfectly.  But there is a reason 
plans do exist.  It is to bring order to chaos.  True proffessionals 
know that you do get material in as fast as possible but you do not 
allow in people who are not trained not under any type of command 
structure.  Sure yoou let people who are already on the ground 
distribute food but you do not let people do as they see fit.  That in 
itself is a reciepe fo disaster.


> 
>   There were still people who were mobile in there.
> People with boats who knew where people in dire need
> were and could get to them,  having come from these
> areas themselves.  There were people looking to ferry
> supplies to the stadium, for instance,  but they
> couldn't because they simply weren't let in.
> 

I never said that those who are in the disaster zone already who have 
let say a boat  not help ferry people out of the area.  But there comes 
a point in which you have to get those people out of the zone as well. 
Remember it was the State not the Feds who blocked access to the stadium.

MRC