🚀 go-pugleaf

In <4p6p34$j89@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> popc@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Ann E Robertson) writes:

>What do you think we use to buy farecards, air?  It takes several people 
>(and armed guards) to remove the cash from the farecard vendors.

So true.  But putting the blank fare cards into the vending machine does not need 
very tight security, plus they're a lot lighter than tokens.

--Dan
-- 
|| D A N I E L   C O N V I S S O R : Newt has all the answers. Too bad they
|| e-mail:  danielc@panix.com      :   aren't the ones that will solve the
|| Transport Policy Analyst        :___problems.(NEWT: georgia6@hr.house.gov)
|| Brooklyn, New York                          http://www.panix.com/~danielc/

OK, so how about the L.A. Metro's answer to admission systems.
No tokens.  No farecards.

You just buy a little ticket that you keep in your pocket to
prove you paid your fare.  There is no entrance system.  You
just walk in and sit down.  No one asks for your ticket when
you get in, but the "conductors" walk up and down periodically
asking to see your ticket.  It's basically an honor system, but
with high fines if you get caught cheating.

In article <4p6p34$j89@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>, popc@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Ann E
Robertson) wrote:

> What do you think we use to buy farecards, air?  It takes several people 
> (and armed guards) to remove the cash from the farecard vendors.  Guess 
> you've never been in a station late at night when the money train (with 
> its dark cars and armed guards) pulls in, the guards jump off, the cash 
> boxes loaded, and everything whisked off into the night.

Oh, I know! My point is that with a token system, you've got the money --
and the tokens! You need a whole other system to account for another
"currency." Electronic fare collection, like farecards, save a bundle.
It's a good thing. You'd probably be paying more to ride Metro if you
didn't have it.

========================================
John Whiteside | Boston -> Washington DC 
jwhitesi@concentric.net
http://www.shore.net/~johnw/
========================================

In article <DsL9sH.J3q@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
tbs3y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Captain Tristan Siegel  LAW III) wrote:

> OK, so how about the L.A. Metro's answer to admission systems.
> No tokens.  No farecards.

I've heard it suggested semi-seriously in Boston that we simply eliminate
fares. Fares pay such a small portion of the system costs, the argument
goes, that we'd be better off eliminating them. We'd also eliminate the
expenses of selling tokens, collecting tokens, administering the pass
program, etc. Plus, more people would ride the system with a zero price,
so the entire Boston region would benefit from fewer cars being used. 

I think it's a good idea, myself, but then I'd be putting in more bike
lanes all over the city and charging higher tolls for those who insist on
driving in...

========================================
John Whiteside | Boston -> Washington DC 
jwhitesi@concentric.net
http://www.shore.net/~johnw/
========================================

On 7 Jun 1996 03:22:15 GMT, j_umbach@ix.netcom.com(James D. Umbach)
wrote:

>In <DsL9sH.J3q@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> tbs3y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU
>(Captain Tristan Siegel  LAW III) writes: 
>>
>>OK, so how about the L.A. Metro's answer to admission systems.
>>No tokens.  No farecards.
>>
>>You just buy a little ticket that you keep in your pocket to
>>prove you paid your fare.  There is no entrance system.  You
>>just walk in and sit down.  No one asks for your ticket when
>>you get in, but the "conductors" walk up and down periodically
>>asking to see your ticket.  It's basically an honor system, but
>>with high fines if you get caught cheating.
>
>Several other cities have this same system: Sacramento, CA; San Diego,
>CA; Portland, OR; San Jose, CA.  
>
>James D. Umbach
>Citrus Heights, CA, USA
>Acts 2:4
James,

You forgot the Light Rail Line in Baltimore, MD as well.  When I use
it to travel to an O's game at Camden Yard, there is no way to cheat
it as there is a cop at the North Lithicum station as well as someone
selling tickets, on the way back there is a cop asking for tickets at
the Camden Yard Platform before allowing you to enter the platform!

Joshua Benkin

jwhitesi@concentric.net (John Whiteside) writes:

> I've heard it suggested semi-seriously in Boston that we simply eliminate
> fares. Fares pay such a small portion of the system costs, the argument
> goes, that we'd be better off eliminating them....Plus, more people 
> would ride the system with a zero price,... 


Yes, more people, of all types--some looking for an easy mark, some just 
for cheap "entertainment."  Drop that "Plus"-part. 

-- 

In <DsL9sH.J3q@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> tbs3y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU
(Captain Tristan Siegel  LAW III) writes: 
>
>OK, so how about the L.A. Metro's answer to admission systems.
>No tokens.  No farecards.
>
>You just buy a little ticket that you keep in your pocket to
>prove you paid your fare.  There is no entrance system.  You
>just walk in and sit down.  No one asks for your ticket when
>you get in, but the "conductors" walk up and down periodically
>asking to see your ticket.  It's basically an honor system, but
>with high fines if you get caught cheating.

Several other cities have this same system: Sacramento, CA; San Diego,
CA; Portland, OR; San Jose, CA.  

James D. Umbach
Citrus Heights, CA, USA
Acts 2:4

>>Several other cities have this same system: Sacramento, CA; San
Diego,
>>CA; Portland, OR; San Jose, CA.  

>James,
>
>You forgot the Light Rail Line in Baltimore, MD as well.  When I use
>it to travel to an O's game at Camden Yard, there is no way to cheat
>it as there is a cop at the North Lithicum station as well as someone
>selling tickets, on the way back there is a cop asking for tickets at
>the Camden Yard Platform before allowing you to enter the platform!
>
>Joshua Benkin
>
I forgot to say that my list was not intended to be inclusive.  But
thanks for the info, Josh.

James D. Umbach
Citrus Heights, CA, USA
Acts 2:4

On Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:19:34 -0400, jwhitesi@concentric.net (John
Whiteside) wrote:

>In article <DsL9sH.J3q@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
>tbs3y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Captain Tristan Siegel  LAW III) wrote:
>
>> OK, so how about the L.A. Metro's answer to admission systems.
>> No tokens.  No farecards.
>
>I've heard it suggested semi-seriously in Boston that we simply eliminate
>fares. Fares pay such a small portion of the system costs, the argument
>goes, that we'd be better off eliminating them. 

I don't think that would work too well in NYC where the fares do pay a
larger portion of the overall costs than in most cities. The MTA is
still not self-sufficient, but it's getting closer to being so -
especially since it's been forced to deal with cutbacks from a variety
of governmental levels.

Besides, New Yorkers are already hit hard with taxes anyway between
state, federal and local income taxes and a variety of other taxes
built in automatically to the prices of housing and services. And a
lot of better employers pay for at least a portion of commuting (mine
pays half) so I come out ahead.

And does L.A.'s system cover as much of the entire city as NYC's? You
can pretty much do without a car in NYC - I don't think you could in
L.A. Granted, folks in the outer borroughs don't have as frequent
service because there are fewer lines that go to those areas, but it's
pretty much a 24/7 for many sections of the city.

In article <DsL9sH.J3q@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
tbs3y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Captain Tristan Siegel  LAW III) wrote:

> OK, so how about the L.A. Metro's answer to admission systems.
> No tokens.  No farecards.
> 
> You just buy a little ticket that you keep in your pocket to
> prove you paid your fare.  There is no entrance system.  You
> just walk in and sit down.  No one asks for your ticket when
> you get in, but the "conductors" walk up and down periodically
> asking to see your ticket.  It's basically an honor system, but
> with high fines if you get caught cheating.

        Of course, if the LA system were actually running anywhere close
to capacity, like New York and DC, there would be no room on the trains
for the conductors to walk through. Hell, in NY at rush hour even if the
conductor managed to ask someone on a train for their ticket, odds are
they're jammed in tight enough that they can't get their hand to their
pocket. The only reason that system works in LA is because the train isn't
operating at anywhere near capacity. Remember, the NY system used to use
tickets also, but abandoned the idea when the system became so heavily
used that the cost of turnstiles was still more efficient than tickets...
                                                -JMP

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jeremy M. Posner    |    "Each game we're through means one or two     |
| jposner@panix.com    |  less mistakes left to be made."    -Chess       |
|  (212) 996-2183      |          http://www.panix.com/~jposner/          |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In <DsL9sH.J3q@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> tbs3y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU
(Captain Tristan Siegel  LAW III) writes: 
>
>OK, so how about the L.A. Metro's answer to admission systems.
>No tokens.  No farecards.
>
>You just buy a little ticket that you keep in your pocket to
>prove you paid your fare.  There is no entrance system.  You
>just walk in and sit down.  No one asks for your ticket when
>you get in, but the "conductors" walk up and down periodically
>asking to see your ticket.  It's basically an honor system, but
>with high fines if you get caught cheating.

That might work on the L.A. Metro, where I imagine there's very light
ridership, but I could anticipate chaos if New York went to the same
system.

In article <31b931f3.8192508@news.interport.net>, cafzali@interport.net
(Cyrus Afzali) wrote:

> I don't think that would work too well in NYC where the fares do pay a
> larger portion of the overall costs than in most cities. The MTA is
> still not self-sufficient, but it's getting closer to being so -
> especially since it's been forced to deal with cutbacks from a variety
> of governmental levels.

Don't ever expect it to be self-sufficient. Economic analysis shows pretty
consistently that the only way for mass transit to cover its costs is to
offer less service at a much higher price (thereby defeating the the
purpose of mass transit).

========================================
John Whiteside | Boston -> Washington DC 
jwhitesi@concentric.net
http://www.shore.net/~johnw/
========================================

tbs3y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Captain Tristan Siegel  LAW III) writes:

>You just buy a little ticket that you keep in your pocket to
>prove you paid your fare.  There is no entrance system.  You
>just walk in and sit down.  No one asks for your ticket when
>you get in, but the "conductors" walk up and down periodically
>asking to see your ticket.  It's basically an honor system, but
>with high fines if you get caught cheating.

This is popular on trams in Europe. You also see in on the Light
Rail in Baltimore.

+'s
No fixed facilities {toll barrier}. Thus suitable for frequent
stops.
Large # of doors -- no 'choke point' as when everyone must pass
the driver. Ergo, shorter layovers even at big stations.

-'s
More fraud.
As traffic goes up, so does the cost of enforcement.


-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close...........(v)301 56 LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead........vr vr vr vr.................20915-1433

In article <jwhitesi-0606962317100001@cnc098067.concentric.net>,
jwhitesi@concentric.net (John Whiteside) wrote:

>In article <4p6p34$j89@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>, popc@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Ann E
>Robertson) wrote:
>
>> What do you think we use to buy farecards, air?  It takes several people 
>> (and armed guards) to remove the cash from the farecard vendors.  Guess 
>> you've never been in a station late at night when the money train (with 
>> its dark cars and armed guards) pulls in, the guards jump off, the cash 
>> boxes loaded, and everything whisked off into the night.
>
>Oh, I know! My point is that with a token system, you've got the money --
>and the tokens! You need a whole other system to account for another
>"currency." Electronic fare collection, like farecards, save a bundle.
>It's a good thing. You'd probably be paying more to ride Metro if you
>didn't have it.

And when one or two or three cashiers at every station are handling company
money, the administrative costs go up accordingly, to make sure the money
is not stolen.  You have accounting paperwork for both the cashier and the
company, people to reconcile the paperwork with the cash, and detectives to
check up on the cashiers.  (that's why as I've said before, transit
agencies are very anxious to go to a cashless system.  With ticket vending
machines, though, nobody from the company has to handle the money until it
reaches the count room (money goes into sealed vaults), and whatever
paperwork you need is generated automatically.  That's a big savings.



You also have to build your cashier booths to a high security standard, 



    /_\      Matthew Mitchell, Newsletter Editor
   /[ ]\     Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers
  /  |  \    PO Box 7505, Philadelphia PA 19101-7505
 /  _|_  \   voice: 215-673-6445-message box 3, fax 215-885-7448
 ---------   http://www.libertynet.org/~dvarp

In article <jwhitesi-0606962319340001@cnc098067.concentric.net>,
jwhitesi@concentric.net (John Whiteside) wrote:

>I've heard it suggested semi-seriously in Boston that we simply eliminate
>fares. Fares pay such a small portion of the system costs, the argument
>goes, that we'd be better off eliminating them. We'd also eliminate the
>expenses of selling tokens, collecting tokens, administering the pass
>program, etc. Plus, more people would ride the system with a zero price,
>so the entire Boston region would benefit from fewer cars being used. 

Boston is a somewhat special case, as MBTA has the lowest farebox recovery
ratio of any big city transit system, as of the last I heard.



    /_\      Matthew Mitchell, Newsletter Editor
   /[ ]\     Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers
  /  |  \    PO Box 7505, Philadelphia PA 19101-7505
 /  _|_  \   voice: 215-673-6445-message box 3, fax 215-885-7448
 ---------   http://www.libertynet.org/~dvarp

mmitchel@libertynet.org (Matthew Mitchell) writes:


>POP (proof of payment) for short

>>That might work on the L.A. Metro, where I imagine there's very light
>>ridership, but I could anticipate chaos if New York went to the same
>>system.

>Not necessarily.  The inspections can also be done on the platform, as
>people are waiting and as people queue at the exits.

But this defeats the basic advantage of a POP system. Look at
Baltimore LR; you don't have ""a"" exit -- rather open the doors
& let'em out.... No choke point.

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close...........(v)301 56 LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead........vr vr vr vr.................20915-1433

In article <wb8fozDsnq2r.334@netcom.com>, David Lesher writes:

> tbs3y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Captain Tristan Siegel  LAW III) writes:
>> You just buy a little ticket that you keep in your pocket to
>> prove you paid your fare.  There is no entrance system.  You
>> just walk in and sit down.  No one asks for your ticket when
>> you get in, but the "conductors" walk up and down periodically
>> asking to see your ticket.  It's basically an honor system, but
>> with high fines if you get caught cheating.

> This is popular on trams in Europe. You also see in on the Light
> Rail in Baltimore.

Metrolink in LA (the suburban system) also uses it.

Egged in Israel is somewhwere in between.  You're supposed to show your
monthly pass to the driver, or buy a ticket, but drivers are often busy
and don't check at busy stops, and nobody checks carefully (I've never
seen a driver check that I had my name and passport number properly
entered on my pass.)  Police occasionally board buses and check that
everyone has valid tickets.

> +'s
> No fixed facilities {toll barrier}. Thus suitable for frequent
> stops.
> Large # of doors -- no 'choke point' as when everyone must pass
> the driver. Ergo, shorter layovers even at big stations.

> -'s
> More fraud.
> As traffic goes up, so does the cost of enforcement.

But that seems to be an issue with conventional tickets as well.  



-- 
David Grabiner, grabiner@math.huji.ac.il, http://www.ma.huji.ac.il/~grabiner
I speak at the Hebrew University, but not for it.
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.

In article <jposner-0806961542570001@jposner.dialup.access.net>, Jeremy M. Posner writes:

>         Of course, if the LA system were actually running anywhere close
> to capacity, like New York and DC, there would be no room on the trains
> for the conductors to walk through. 

They do it in Jerusalem.  I have twice been in a city bus which was
boarded by a police officer checking tickets.  Both times, it was at
rush hour, just as the bus entered downtown, on a bus which was full
enough that the driver skipped stops because he had no room for
passengers.  It took him a while, but he worked his way through the bus,
starting at the front door, and got off through the back door at the
next stop.

I've also been checked on an overfull inter-urban bus, but that's easier
for the officer because he has plenty of time between stops.



-- 
David Grabiner, grabiner@math.huji.ac.il, http://www.ma.huji.ac.il/~grabiner
I speak at the Hebrew University, but not for it.
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.

In article <4pcn5t$78g@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
prosa1@ix.netcom.com(Peter Rosa) wrote:

>In <DsL9sH.J3q@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> tbs3y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU
>(Captain Tristan Siegel  LAW III) writes: 

>>You just buy a little ticket that you keep in your pocket to
>>prove you paid your fare.  

POP (proof of payment) for short

>That might work on the L.A. Metro, where I imagine there's very light
>ridership, but I could anticipate chaos if New York went to the same
>system.

Not necessarily.  The inspections can also be done on the platform, as
people are waiting and as people queue at the exits.



    /_\      Matthew Mitchell, Newsletter Editor
   /[ ]\     Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers
  /  |  \    PO Box 7505, Philadelphia PA 19101-7505
 /  _|_  \   voice: 215-673-6445-message box 3, fax 215-885-7448
 ---------   http://www.libertynet.org/~dvarp

In <ADE185E29668B72284@ts11-03.upenn.edu> mmitchel@libertynet.org (Matthew Mitchell) says

> In article <4pcn5t$78g@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
> prosa1@ix.netcom.com(Peter Rosa) wrote:
> 
> >That might work on the L.A. Metro, where I imagine there's very light
> >ridership, but I could anticipate chaos if New York went to the same
> >system.
> 
> Not necessarily.  The inspections can also be done on the platform, as
> people are waiting and as people queue at the exits.

You, sir, are QUITE obviously not a New Yorker if you really think that
your suggestion is feasible.  During rush hours the platforms are almost
as crowded as the trains, and people do NOT queue up neatly at the exits.
It is strictly a mob scene.  POP is not an alternative in New York as it
is or as is politically possible.

Harvey

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Harvey Fishman   |  How come the woman in the Ford commercials is always   
fishman@panix.com |      walking rather than riding in a Ford vehicle?
  718-258-7276    |              Does she KNOW something?


                                                                                                                              

In article <uco20jo6jzy.fsf@sunset.ma.huji.ac.il>,
grabiner@sunset.ma.huji.ac.il (David Joseph Grabiner) wrote:

> In article <jposner-0806961542570001@jposner.dialup.access.net>, Jeremy
M. Posner writes:
> 
> >         Of course, if the LA system were actually running anywhere close
> > to capacity, like New York and DC, there would be no room on the trains
> > for the conductors to walk through. 
> 
> They do it in Jerusalem.  I have twice been in a city bus which was
> boarded by a police officer checking tickets.  Both times, it was at
> rush hour, just as the bus entered downtown, on a bus which was full
> enough that the driver skipped stops because he had no room for
> passengers.  It took him a while, but he worked his way through the bus,
> starting at the front door, and got off through the back door at the
> next stop.
> 
> I've also been checked on an overfull inter-urban bus, but that's easier
> for the officer because he has plenty of time between stops.

        The impressions I've gotten over my last couple of trips to Israel
is that with more people (legally) carrying firearms and a stronger
military presence, the police are not as involved in simply lowering the
crime rate by their presence. In NYC, it is often assumed (although not
always true) that cops are the only ones who will do anything to stop a
crime. When cops are doing otherwise useless things like checking for
train passes, they could be out preventing crimes. (At least in theory.)
Also, if this happened, since the transit police no longer exist, the MTA
would have to pay the police department a hefty sum just to get them to
enforce it. After all, the police unions would complain that they aren't
paid to be ticket takers, while the RR Clerks union would complain that
they wouldn't be well enough protected from "disturbed" passengers while
on the trains...
                                                -JMP

> -- 
> David Grabiner, grabiner@math.huji.ac.il, http://www.ma.huji.ac.il/~grabiner
> I speak at the Hebrew University, but not for it.
> Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
> Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jeremy M. Posner    |    "Each game we're through means one or two     |
| jposner@panix.com    |  less mistakes left to be made."    -Chess       |
|  (212) 996-2183      |          http://www.panix.com/~jposner/          |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Whiteside (jwhitesi@concentric.net) wrote:

: Don't ever expect it to be self-sufficient. Economic analysis shows pretty
: consistently that the only way for mass transit to cover its costs is to
: offer less service at a much higher price (thereby defeating the the
: purpose of mass transit).

That is certainly true if you refer to the whole transit system of a city.
But heavily-used (light or heavy) rail services, as the NY subway, may well
cover their costs or even make profit. 
Of course, you need additional bus (feeder) routes which normally don't
cover much of their costs.

-- Martin --

> It's basically an honor system, but with high fines if you get
> caught cheating.

Boy I'd say.  I first saw this in San Jose, California, where I first
witnessed the no-leniance policy of busting people without fares (they
come on last and then trap you in, hiding behind your back to make
sure you don't escape their view), but then it was much more poignant
in Los Angeles when you saw these people complaining about how they
just got back from Mexico, and to answer the question of why they
left, they had to shyly explain that their transfer had expired 15
minutes too early while riding the Blue Line.  Sometimes this was
hardly their fault -- the transfers in Los Angeles aren't for enough
time to complete a Blue Line leg of a trip often.

You see, if the transfer is expired, they then pull you off the train,
and then check all of your papers and records and stuff -- including
warrants, etc.  Many, many people seem to go to jail this way.

Well, I'm lucky that I had no warrants when they caught me eating an
ice cream cone coming into the station in downtown one day.  I did get
a $250 ticket for it though.

(I saved it, someday I'll frame it ... with a subtitle along the lines
of ``In Los Angeles, you can expect to get tickets and likely go to
jail for things such as eating ice cream cones.'')

Most of the modern LRT systems use POP (Proof of Payment), aka the honour
system with roving fare inspectors for enforcement. Some commuter
railroads do as well (eg. GO Transit in Toronto). Few subway (heavy rail)
systems do.


--
#####    |\^/|     Colin R. Leech     ag414 or crleech@freenet.carleton.ca
##### _|\|   |/|_  Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
##### >         <  Opinions are my own. Consider them shareware if you want.
#####  >_./|\._<   "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown

>The practice in most cities is for POP inspectors to work in teams. 
In
>NYC, you just have to make the teams larger.

Here in Sacramento, LRT has a rather peculiar way of handling the
inspections.  Yes, you still have a pair of inspectors board the
trains, and that is the usual deal.  However, on occasion, as the train
is approaching a station the operator will announce "Next stop is
________.  Please remain seated and have your tickets ready for
inspection.  Thank you."  At the station, 5 inspectors and a police
officer board the train, each at a different door.  Every single person
on the train is checked, and the inspection is done within 20 seconds. 
They also get people coming off the train and check them for tickets. 
Then the officers/inspectors wait at the station for the next train. 
They do that for a couple hours, then move to another station.

I've only seen this done once (at the 12th and I station).  Most of the
times I'm not checked, and every other time has been the standard way.

James D. Umbach
Citrus Heights, CA, USA
Acts 2:4