🚀 go-pugleaf

In <37d2b505.1993608@news.newforce.ca> darrell@newforce.ca (Darrell) writes:
>What it boils down to is most of the NCF costs seem to be way out
>of line. They amount to an small ISP with 10,000-11,000 (smaller than
>Magma,Cyberus, IGS etc) users that requires a huge volunteer base to
>run... WHY? The overhead of NCF is lower than the real ISP's as NCF
>doesn't have to pay market prices for local loops, T-3 and other
>connections through the good graces of Carleton University, they have
>Mitel providing almost a complete PRI phonebank.

It requires more effort to operate the NCF because 
   1) It provides a text based interface
   2) It provides content in the form of menus and newsgroups.
   3) Commercial providers are not providing a full year of service for
      anything approaching $24.  The reality is that the NCF is seriously
      underfunded for what it is trying to do and for the most part is 
      trying to make do with dated hardware.

BTW, the NCF has to pay Carleton for Internet connectivity.

> But the simple fact
>of the matter is Other ISP's can and do other better services for more
>users with less man-power (person-power?) than NCF, why is that. IMHO
>NCF seems to be modelled after a federal government agency, top-heavy
>with management.

   The NCF has a grand total of one management person.  

>NCF as a business is a failure, they have succeeded in reducing (based
>on their own figures) their user base from 65,000 down to about 11,000

A lot of the original freenets are either gone or planning to shutdown
so the NCF has been relatively successful in comparison to similar
organizations.  Given that Internet connectivity has become a relatively
cheap commodity I would have to say that the current model of the NCF 
may not be sustainable.

>There is some secret backroom dealings where board members are getting
>paid as consultants (on contract I heard of was $80,000) but there was
>no word whether this money went back into NCF. I have a real hard time
>with a "community based, non-profit" group bidding on commercial
>contracts,  while holding their hands out to local businesses for
>support. Give us money so we can compete against you!

I would have thought that you'd have more of an axe to grind with 
Industry Canada who is the party handing out the contracts than with the
NCF.  Or do you have some personal vendetta against the NCF?

-- 
John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca                       613-520-2600x3707
"Why are so many people trying to get ahead when they already have one?"

On 5 Sep 1999 20:29:23 GMT, jstewart@alfred.carleton.ca (John A.
Stewart) wrote:

>In <37d2b505.1993608@news.newforce.ca> darrell@newforce.ca (Darrell) writes:
>>What it boils down to is most of the NCF costs seem to be way out
>>of line. They amount to an small ISP with 10,000-11,000 (smaller than
>>Magma,Cyberus, IGS etc) users that requires a huge volunteer base to
>>run... WHY? The overhead of NCF is lower than the real ISP's as NCF
>>doesn't have to pay market prices for local loops, T-3 and other
>>connections through the good graces of Carleton University, they have
>>Mitel providing almost a complete PRI phonebank.
>
>It requires more effort to operate the NCF because 
>   1) It provides a text based interface

Unix shell interface isn't too tough, most BBS had a text based
interface

>   2) It provides content in the form of menus and newsgroups.

Newsgroups, ok so do most ISP's! Menus? Yes they make newsgroup
navigation easier

>   3) Commercial providers are not providing a full year of service for
>      anything approaching $24.  The reality is that the NCF is seriously
>      underfunded for what it is trying to do and for the most part is 
>      trying to make do with dated hardware.
>
>BTW, the NCF has to pay Carleton for Internet connectivity.

At what rate? 
>
>> But the simple fact
>>of the matter is Other ISP's can and do other better services for more
>>users with less man-power (person-power?) than NCF, why is that. IMHO
>>NCF seems to be modelled after a federal government agency, top-heavy
>>with management.
>
>   The NCF has a grand total of one management person.  
>
>>NCF as a business is a failure, they have succeeded in reducing (based
>>on their own figures) their user base from 65,000 down to about 11,000
>
>A lot of the original freenets are either gone or planning to shutdown
>so the NCF has been relatively successful in comparison to similar
>organizations.  Given that Internet connectivity has become a relatively
>cheap commodity I would have to say that the current model of the NCF 
>may not be sustainable.
>
>>There is some secret backroom dealings where board members are getting
>>paid as consultants (on contract I heard of was $80,000) but there was
>>no word whether this money went back into NCF. I have a real hard time
>>with a "community based, non-profit" group bidding on commercial
>>contracts,  while holding their hands out to local businesses for
>>support. Give us money so we can compete against you!
>
>I would have thought that you'd have more of an axe to grind with 
>Industry Canada who is the party handing out the contracts than with the
>NCF.  Or do you have some personal vendetta against the NCF?
>
My beef with NCF is it is becoming more secretive, the last couple of
boards seem to ignore the users. The original concept was NCF was
not a commercial ISP/Network solutions provider. The Industry Canada
is a good example. What was the contract, how much money was paid
to who, and why? Contracts like this will erode support that local
ISP's provide NCF. Debate is healthy, IMHO closed doors are not.

I have been an NCF user since the beginning (ad607), but when various
issues are discussed in-house (ncf. newsgroups) a board member will
usually squelch debate

I also have a beef with Carleton University hosting various commercial
websites, as that isn't in the school's mandate but that is a much
different issue. 

Overall NCF is a success, but some board decisions seem counter
to the NCF Mission Statement


>-- 
>John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
>Internet: jstewart@ccs.carleton.ca                       613-520-2600x3707
>"Why are so many people trying to get ahead when they already have one?"

In article <37d2b505.1993608@news.newforce.ca>,
Darrell (darrell@newforce.ca) wrote:
>
>But the simple fact
>of the matter is Other ISP's can and do other better services for more
>users with less man-power (person-power?) than NCF, why is that.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that while thousands of
users think nothing of paying ten times what the NCF is asking to
a commercial provider, they expect the NCF to provide the same
services for free.

>NCF as a business is a failure

Apparently.

Howard E.

-- 
If you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem.
-George Carlin

Jay Lawrence <ae782@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:

> 	Note the key word "asked".  Those who cannot, or don't wish to
> donate are not denied access.  Try that at a commercial ISP.

The 'renewal letter' makes it seem like a 'donation' is required.

> 	NCF pays a lot of money for bandwidth, it just happens to come
> from Carleton.  Who told you it was free?

They pay based on the percentage they use.


BTW, could you follow up to BOTH can.infohighway and ott.online?  Your
newsreader should do this automatically unless you're using some broken
system written in th '80s.

-- 
Matthew Darwin                            Westend Family Cinema
Community Volunteer                       The home of great family movies!
matthew@davin.ottawa.on.ca                webmaster@familycinema.org
http://www.davin.ottawa.on.ca/~matthew/   http://www.familycinema.org

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Matthew Darwin <matthew@davin.ottawa.on.ca> wrote in message
news:7r0kir$s1u$1@caribou.davin.ottawa.on.ca...
> BTW, could you follow up to BOTH can.infohighway and ott.online?
> Your newsreader should do this automatically unless you're using
> some broken system written in th '80s.

The person you're replying to seemed to be using the NCF newsreader.

Last time I checked, that thing still didn't follow up to all
newsgroups, only the one you're reading.

Vivien
- --
Vivien Milat
vivienm@home.com - vivienm@bigfoot.com - ICQ 4445675
Vivien's World - http://www.bigfoot.com/~vivienm

Please reply either by email or in the newsgroup, but not both.


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Darrell <darrell@newforce.ca> wrote:
>NCF as a business is a failure [...]

Indeed, as a profit-making capitalist endeavour generating money for
its shareholders, NCF is a total failure; but, I think it makes a pretty
good community network.  I don't compare NCF with businesses; I compare
it with other organizations with similar missions.  I like the people
who volunteer for NCF - we're a good group.
-- 
-IAN!  Ian! D. Allen   Ottawa, Ontario, Canada   idallen@ncf.ca
       Home Page on the Ottawa FreeNet: http://www.ncf.ca/~aa610/
       College professor at: http://www.algonquinc.on.ca/~alleni/
       Board Member, TeleCommunities CANADA  http://www.tc.ca/

Darrell <darrell@newforce.ca> wrote:
> but when various
>issues are discussed in-house (ncf. newsgroups) a board member will
>usually squelch debate

Nonsense.  Most of the NCF news groups aren't even moderated - nobody
controls what is said there.  Debate anything you like.
-- 
-IAN!  Ian! D. Allen   Ottawa, Ontario, Canada   idallen@ncf.ca
       Home Page on the Ottawa FreeNet: http://www.ncf.ca/~aa610/
       College professor at: http://www.algonquinc.on.ca/~alleni/
       Board Member, TeleCommunities CANADA  http://www.tc.ca/

Matthew Darwin (matthew@davin.ottawa.on.ca) writes:
> Jay Lawrence <ae782@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
> 
>> 	Note the key word "asked".  Those who cannot, or don't wish to
>> donate are not denied access.  Try that at a commercial ISP.
> 
> The 'renewal letter' makes it seem like a 'donation' is required.

	It does, but like we all discovered, that's not true.

 
>> 	NCF pays a lot of money for bandwidth, it just happens to come
>> from Carleton.  Who told you it was free?
> 
> They pay based on the percentage they use.
> 
> 
> BTW, could you follow up to BOTH can.infohighway and ott.online?  Your
> newsreader should do this automatically unless you're using some broken
> system written in th '80s.
> 
	Y'mean like Freeport?  :)

--
Jay Lawrence  -  ae782@freenet.carleton.ca
		 jay@ottawa.com

Matthew Darwin <matthew@davin.ottawa.on.ca> wrote in message news:7r0kir$s1u$1@caribou.davin.ottawa.on.ca...
> Jay Lawrence <ae782@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Note the key word "asked".  Those who cannot, or don't wish to
> > donate are not denied access.  Try that at a commercial ISP.
> 
> The 'renewal letter' makes it seem like a 'donation' is required.


    When I replied to my renewal letter that I would rather volunteer than pay money, I heard no reply, except for Freenet archiving my account. Since the only notice was by email, replying by email should have been sufficient. Freenet is very hypocritical in only sending notices by email but expecting snail mail replies.


 Since I am a Solaris sysadmin with 35 years computer experience, I do think I could contribute. I have contributed >$100/year for the last 5 years so I don't think I am a Freenet deadbeat. But since I don't use Freenet for any other access than to freenet newsgroups and email, I see no value in contributing more money. Instead of getting a $100 this year, they lost a member permanently. 
Having 5,000 members paying $24 will get not get enough money to keep Freenet running, 30,000 paying $10 each is a lot more money.

"Bill Royds" (BRoyds@home.com) writes:
> Matthew Darwin <matthew@davin.ottawa.on.ca> wrote in message =
> news:7r0kir$s1u$1@caribou.davin.ottawa.on.ca...
>> Jay Lawrence <ae782@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>>=20
>> > Note the key word "asked".  Those who cannot, or don't wish to
>> > donate are not denied access.  Try that at a commercial ISP.
>>=20
>> The 'renewal letter' makes it seem like a 'donation' is required.
> 
> 
>     When I replied to my renewal letter that I would rather volunteer =
> than pay money, I heard no reply, except for Freenet archiving my =
> account. Since the only notice was by email, replying by email should =
> have been sufficient. Freenet is very hypocritical in only sending =
> notices by email but expecting snail mail replies.
>
	I renewed via email, and did not enclose my VISA number for donation.  I
didn't get archived.  all you had to do was reply to the reneral letter
saying, "YES, I WANT TO RENEW!  PLEASE RENEW MY ACCOUNT!"  and you would
have been renewed.  If, after 4 warnings, you didn't get that someone might
have misplaced your original renewal request, and you didn't send another
one, I don't think blaming NCF is appropriate.

 
> 
>  Since I am a Solaris sysadmin with 35 years computer experience, I do =
> think I could contribute. I have contributed >$100/year for the last 5 =
> years so I don't think I am a Freenet deadbeat. But since I don't use =
> Freenet for any other access than to freenet newsgroups and email, I see =
> no value in contributing more money. Instead of getting a $100 this =
> year, they lost a member permanently.=20
> Having 5,000 members paying $24 will get not get enough money to keep =
> Freenet running, 30,000 paying $10 each is a lot more money.

	freenet can always use help.  If you'd sent another renewal
request, and then contacted the sysadmin team with your offer of help, you
might be in a different situation.  Things don't always work perfectly.

	Volunteering on your own terms rarely works.  Why not try again? 
What with Y2K approaching, I'm sure they could sorely use someone with
your experience.  unarchivals are monthly.  Contact office@ncf.ca if you'd
like to have another go.

--
Jay Lawrence  -  ae782@freenet.carleton.ca
		 jay@ottawa.com