🚀 go-pugleaf

I found myself very interested in reading your surveys and I was happy
you included many warnings about the fact that the data may or may not
be accurate because of certain technical limitations. You must have
spent many hours setting all that up.

One problem I can see with these surveys is the fact that you ping the
web servers of each ISP from the network you use. That would give
inaccurate results since you're not connected to that ISP (as you
noted). The biggest problem however is that you rate the ISP's
performance by doing that. I don't connect to Sympatico to browse the
Sympatico pages. I connect mostly to download software, read newsgroups
and to email, therefore you are not even close as to rating the
performance I am getting because my modem doesn't connect to the same
server that contain the sympatico web pages.

If you are to compare two competing ISPs; say Sympatico and Istar by
ping'ing their web pages, there are many things to take into
consideration. First, you admitted to being on the Istar network
therefore swaying the odds considerably. Second is a very important
factor, the web page content. I have visited the Istar pages with a
friend who has an account with them and there is almost no content on
their pages. The Sympatico pages have a considerable amount of content,
which would make it busier during peak times. Third is the fact that you
cannot ping the Sympatico pages (as you noted). You seem to think that
an ISP that doesn't allow pings is evil. I for one as a Sympatico member
am happy to know that the servers I use cannot be ping'ed. I'm not
condemming your setup and the tests you have been performing but can you
imagine the results of hundreds or thousands of people regularly
performing these tests on the same ip addresses? Could it not slow that
server down to a crawl?

I understand you may not have been the one to initiate this discussion
and I don't want to demean the effort you have put in to evaluate the
local and national ISPs that serve the area. On the contrary, I
congratulate you on this undertaking as a service to the public, in a an
area of business that grows at such a fast pace.

Lou




mreid@rogers.wave.ca wrote:
> 
> Please note that this is also mirrored now at
> http://home.on.rogers.wave.ca/mreid/ottisp/index.html . My cable modem
> has been acting up a bit lately, so this URL may be more reliable.
> 
> Unfortunately, performance testing can be quite complicated. The results
> shown favor any ISP on the iStar/MCI or UUNet networks and I've tried to
> include sufficient notice of this on my pages. I want to make that clear.
> 
> iStar is on iStar and Sympatico is on the Bell/CANET network. This tends
> to make Sympatico look worse than iStar. Sympatico doesn't allow their web
> servers to respond to pings. That tends to make Symapatico look better
> again as I'm pinging their last pingable router. Routers often treat pings
> as low priority however...
> 
> Regards,
> Mike.

> mreid@rogers.wave.ca wrote:
> >
> > Please note that this is also mirrored now at
> > http://home.on.rogers.wave.ca/mreid/ottisp/index.html . My cable modem
> > has been acting up a bit lately, so this URL may be more reliable.
> >
> > Unfortunately, performance testing can be quite complicated. The results
> > shown favor any ISP on the iStar/MCI or UUNet networks and I've tried to
> > include sufficient notice of this on my pages. I want to make that clear.
> >
> > iStar is on iStar and Sympatico is on the Bell/CANET network. This tends
> > to make Sympatico look worse than iStar. Sympatico doesn't allow their web
> > servers to respond to pings. That tends to make Symapatico look better
> > again as I'm pinging their last pingable router. Routers often treat pings
> > as low priority however...
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mike.


Check out the July edition of Boardwatch magazine for some interesting
performance comparisons of major backbone providers. Although the tests
are US-centric, they did include Bell Canada which was ranked dead last.

It's entirely possible their tests were unfairly biased towards U.S.
providers, and in fact all of their test agents were in U.S. locations.

How Bell managed to be so far behind the pack is still interesting
though - unless their webserver was at fault.

The URL is http://www.boardwatch.com/MAG/97/JUL/bwm22.htm

You'll have to fill out a form if you're not a member, but it is
free.


-- 
Colin Stuckless
Junior Network Administrator
Revenue Canada - Information Highway Initiatives Division
colins@rc.gc.ca

Louise wrote:
>Third is the fact that you
> cannot ping the Sympatico pages (as you noted). You seem to think that
> an ISP that doesn't allow pings is evil. I for one as a Sympatico member
> am happy to know that the servers I use cannot be ping'ed. I'm not
> condemming your setup and the tests you have been performing but can you
> imagine the results of hundreds or thousands of people regularly
> performing these tests on the same ip addresses? Could it not slow that
> server down to a crawl?
> 

Why yes, pinging is evil and can result in slow servers.  A simple, but
illegal DOS (Denial of Service) attack is the 'ping -f' on a UNIX
machine.  This sends out as many pings as your modem OR processor can
handle.  When this is implemented from a machine that has a very fast
internet connection, the victom's computer can be knocked off the
network as a result of trying to answer all the pings.  I even had this
happen to me when I was on IRC and someone didn't like my handle.  They
didn't ping my server, but my dynamic IP - not to say that they couldn't
have gone after my ISP.

regards,
G - man

----------------------------------------------------------------------
G - man? you ask.  Yes, of course I'm a garbage man.  I'm the one that
crushed your garbage can yesterday  ;)

Interesting discussion to a point, and also interesting to see
how many people think web server performance equates to ISP
performance (Boardwatch syndrome). For another data point, see

http://www.bconnex.net/bconnex/ping2/pings.html

which has ping data from Barrie Connex (I run the joint, bias
should be noted). It may provide an interesting window from another
vantage point. If anyone has a server or router they would like
to see on the page, I have no objections to adding sites.

Thx,
dennis
--
/---------------------------------------------------------------------\
| "A winner listens, a loser waits for their turn to talk." - unknown |
\---------------------------------------------------------------------/

David Cunill wrote:
> 
> >I understand you may not have been the one to initiate this discussion
> >and I don't want to demean the effort you have put in to evaluate the
> >local and national ISPs that serve the area. On the contrary, I
> >congratulate you on this undertaking as a service to the public, in a an
> >area of business that grows at such a fast pace.
> >
> 
> Bottom line. Sympatico and Istar charge horrendous premium prices for
> mediocre service. I know because I have been a customer of both IPs in
> the past couple of years.
> 
> I am now with an IP that charges 1/3 the $. The service is just as
> good, and in many ways better.
> 
> Dave
  ---------------------------------------------------

	Well Dave, I totally disagree with you.  I've been with 6 ISPs and iStar was
one of them.  I can honestly say that iStar was far worse than the guy who
worked out of his basement.  I've had excellent service with Sympatico.  As
for cost, Sympatico is in line with the better ISPs for the services provided
and iStar is overpriced for no service.  iStar should be charged with false
advertising and grand theft.  I won't argue with you about Cyberus.

	Bottom line - There are many users who want to pay $10/month for all you can
surf and they want the ISP to come to their house to fix their PC problems as
well as teach them how to use the Internet.

Cheers,
Frank...

{**********************************************************}
{E-MAIL = fmisztal@kos.net				   }
{       = fmisztal@sympatico.ca				   }
{       = aa891@debbs.ndhq.dnd.ca			   }
{FAX = (613) 526-2555					   }
{PEACEKEEPER'S HOME PAGE = http://peacekeeper.kos.net/	   }
{CCUNDOF HOME PAGE = http://peacekeeper.kos.net/golan.html }
 **********************************************************

"Colin J. Stuckless" <colins@rc.gc.ca> writes:

>Check out the July edition of Boardwatch magazine for some interesting
>performance comparisons of major backbone providers. Although the tests
>are US-centric, they did include Bell Canada which was ranked dead last.

The report is flawed due to poor testing methodology.
Although, it's marketing and sales value, are amazing.

ISPs in the US are thinking about how to measure each others
performance in a fair and objective manner.

In my mind, I think consumers can and should come up with their
own tools for doing this.

Note: This is not as easy as it seems. 
-- 
=================
The hardest thing to see		| Tom Glinos @ U of Toronto Statistics
is the way things REALLY are.		| tg@utstat.toronto.edu

In article <EFpvs7.BnJ@utstat.toronto.edu>, tg@utstat.toronto.edu (Tom
Glinos) wrote:

[snip]
> ISPs in the US are thinking about how to measure each others
> performance in a fair and objective manner.
[snip]

Tom,

Could you point me to articles online or in print showing that "they"
(whoever they might be) are thinking about this? I'd be interested to see
what supports this viewpoint. Also, do you have any pointer to what they've
concluded after "thinking", if they've gotten to that stage?

Michael

+----------------------+-----------------------------+
|  Michael R. Collins  |  Michael.Collins@squam.org  |
|  Toronto, Ontario    |                             |
|  Canada              |                             |

One loud and resounding Amen to what you have said Frank !

Sympatico is the best deal around for what you get. Istar is disaster
city. Been there ----not for long thank god !! Been other places
too---CompuS and AOL and Prodigy----Yuk!!!!

Sympatico is Canadian, It's bilingual, they get screwed-up at times and
they can be a temporary pain the way they handle things but with a
little courteous nudging they usually recover. There are some good folks
there ! 

They didn't handle that 100 hours promotion very well. The lack of
communication between bell and Sympatico must have cost them a lot of
bad publicity.

Overall Sympatico I think is the best being offered so far for the
price.

Ciao

Bernie T

Bernie T wrote:
> 
> One loud and resounding Amen to what you have said Frank !
> 
> Sympatico is the best deal around for what you get. Istar is disaster
> city. Been there ----not for long thank god !! Been other places
> too---CompuS and AOL and Prodigy----Yuk!!!!
> 
> Sympatico is Canadian, It's bilingual, they get screwed-up at times and
> they can be a temporary pain the way they handle things but with a
> little courteous nudging they usually recover. There are some good folks
> there !
> 
> They didn't handle that 100 hours promotion very well. The lack of
> communication between bell and Sympatico must have cost them a lot of
> bad publicity.
> 
> Overall Sympatico I think is the best being offered so far for the
> price.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------

	Thanks, Bernie.

	There isn't one ISP that is perfect.  I personally haven't had any problems
with the promo, so I can't really comment on that.  I'm sure that there are
extenuating circumstances for any screw-ups for both the ISP and the user. 
It's unfortunate that some probs get fixed right away and others take a little
longer.  Like you said; "a little curteous nudging" helps a lot.

	Personally, I think Sympatico is doing a great job.  They have an excellent
support newsgroup - the best I've seen yet and, although you have to press a
bunch of numbers to talk to a tech, their phone help is also great.

	I used to work an Internet helpdesk, so I know what I'm talking about.

Cheers,
Frank...

{**********************************************************}
{E-MAIL = fmisztal@kos.net				   }
{       = fmisztal@sympatico.ca				   }
{       = aa891@debbs.ndhq.dnd.ca			   }
{FAX = (613) 526-2555					   }
{PEACEKEEPER'S HOME PAGE = http://peacekeeper.kos.net/	   }
{CCUNDOF HOME PAGE = http://peacekeeper.kos.net/golan.html }
 **********************************************************

Bernie T wrote:
> 
> One loud and resounding Amen to what you have said Frank !
> 
> Sympatico is the best deal around for what you get. Istar is disaster
> city. Been there ----not for long thank god !! Been other places
> too---CompuS and AOL and Prodigy----Yuk!!!!
> 
> Sympatico is Canadian, It's bilingual, they get screwed-up at times and
> they can be a temporary pain the way they handle things but with a
> little courteous nudging they usually recover. There are some good folks
> there !
> 
> They didn't handle that 100 hours promotion very well. The lack of
> communication between bell and Sympatico must have cost them a lot of
> bad publicity.
> 
> Overall Sympatico I think is the best being offered so far for the
> price.
> 
> Ciao
> 
> Bernie T
amen