🚀 go-pugleaf

"ef_hutterite" <efhutterite@montanan.org> wrote in message 
news:c8ofc2hpidbq7pk90ha1lu94ha0ufe6e1k@4ax.com...

>>I said environmentalist, not hypocrite.
>
> Sorry but they all claim to be in the "movement".

The more press "the movement" gets, the more those type of people will show 
up before whisking away to their mansions when it starts getting really 
weird. When you get down to the nitty gritty of an actual timber blockade, 
for example, it definately gets weird.

> If you're an investor or owner, you're hurt, afraid, terrorized.

(subj:  arson = terrorism)   That's possible, but, it's still not terrorism 
any more than breaking into somebody's store and stealing stuff is.  I had 
an opportunity to tour a local timber trucking company owner's own, private 
B-25 bomber.  I was honored, but caught myself thinking Gee, the timber 
industry must really be hurting if log truck operators can own and fly 
fully-restored multimilliondollar World War II aircraft at $1000+ an hour to 
operate.  Now, if somebody -threatened- to torch his B-25 if he didn't stop 
logging, terrorism might apply.  I just don't credit the arsonists with that 
much intelligence.

> So you favor a lesser penalty phase for carefully premeditated arson not 
> intended to kill?
> Right...spin that one elsewhere.

That ain't gonna fly.  YOU put words in MY mouth and then accuse me of spin? 
Nope.   If they committed arson, they should be convicted of arson.   ANY 
arson puts firefighters at risk.  We do not charge arsonists with terrorism, 
we charge them with arson.

> You should read about them, from their suicided out leader and the rick 
> shop meeting in Sedona to the Vail job - all classic haters.

Agreed.  Even the Earth First!ers I met in Oregon, the direct-action 
treesitter types, have told me (since I tend to ask tough questions) that, 
if they knew who committed the arson that happened in Oregon in the late 
'90s, they'd turn them in.  If you want the public to gain your trust, and 
you want the timber industry to work with you, you can't tolerate criminal 
behavior regardless of the excuse.

>>An educated, experienced and damned clever one.  (Although I've never 
>>vandalized anything.  My specialty was gathering intelligence about 
>> >>illegal operation, identifying infiltrators, and for my own purposes 
>>watching to see where the educated environmentalism ended and the 
>>post->>hippie rhetoric began.)

>http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/terrorism : the systematic use of terror 
>especially as a means of coercion

By that definition, I'm a victim of terrorism.  At Warner Creek pro-logging 
types dumped thousands of roofing nails on the road when Time Magazine was 
coming up to do a press tour.  I had over 20 nails in each of my tires, and 
a photo somewhere of the typical Eugenus Treehuggerus helping an off-duty 
deputy who hit them.  When I reported it in Oakridge, the State Trooper who 
met me at the A&W said "Well, I can't go up there.  The BLM has ordered the 
Oregon State Police not to go up there under any circumstances.  There's 
nothing I can do. It must have been those environmentalists..."

> Be careful what you fess to in this medium.

The FBI already knows.  When I had my timber-rant site up, I'd check the 
logs and see hits from government IPs almost daily for about a year.
If you go to a timber protest as an activist, a logger, a journalist, or a 
politician, you'll see fratboy types walking along taking photographs of all 
the license plates.  You'd be amazed...we had a full-blown cold war going in 
the woods.  It was both thrilling and unbelievable to watch it play out. 
When the police raided Warner Creek, a Eugene R-G photographer who was 
outside the closure area had his camera confiscated. When the court ordered 
the police to give it back, they discovered that the film had been 
deliberately exposed and destroyed:
http://www.nsc.org/ehc/ew/issues/ew96sep.htm#forest  (note:  the 'women 
screaming' thing is likely true, but, to be fair, any time there were 
arrests or civil disobedience, women screamed.  It's annoying, and at least 
half the time they weren't being treated badly at all, making it impossible 
to know without being there.)

> You wouldn't be a little terrorized if you knew it was done due to some 
> political agenda and could happen again? Why don't I believe
> that.

You can believe it because it happened to me.  Similarly, they fired 
shotguns over the heads of activists, stole the clothes of two teenage girls 
who were swimming in a stream and then threw rocks at them to get them to 
come out of the water, etc.

> Yes...the "hurt" part was just the terroristic COERCION!

We can agree to disagree but, my overall thought on the matter is that by 
and large, the type that commit these crimes aren't trying to coerce 
anybody.  The real work involves self-sacrifice, research and brains.  Most 
of these "ecoterrorists" are suburban brats who just want to lash out at the 
world and if you tell them as an environmentalist that they're wrong, they 
consider you part of the Man.  I don't extend them the respect of being 
farsighted enough to think in terms of coercion.

-c