🚀 go-pugleaf

On 14 Oct 1997, John Paulus wrote:
> Tracy Hornschuch (browntr@engr.orst.edu) wrote:
> : On 7 Oct 1997, Karl Denninger wrote:
[snipped]
> Actually, it seemed to me, from the newspapers and shows like Nightline, it
> seemed like Patricia Ireland was THE person to represent the Loyal
> Opposition to Promise Keepers (sort of like how Jesse Jackson is the go-to
> guy when reporting on issues of race; not that either are necessarily
> representative of people's opinions...)

I can't afford the newspaper and I don't watch Nightline.  I watch the
local news that comes on at 6:30 and ER.  Sometimes I watch HBO, but
that's only if they have something worth watching.


> People will use ANYTHING to justify their selfish ways, like science for
> racism, etc. But i believe you understand this.

I agree with this.  I've been threatened over this issue by someone (I
can't mention the name) saying they would like to start using private
email to prove themself.  Of course it is how a person reads something,
because two people I guess can have different thoughts on what the point
was.

> : I know this... there isn't any reason for you to go off like this....  You
> : must not have read everything I said.  Just read what you wanted to.
> 
> Duh. It's Karl you responded to. ;)

I'm glad you understand that it isn't the PKers themselves, but this
person I basically was responding to.

> : It should have to be based on the Bible.  To be a good father and good
> : husband should depend on the Bible.
> ^^^^
> Did you actually type the above? Or was that Karl?

I have a habit with some words to automatically placing N's on the end.
Just replace all the should with shouldn't.

And I don't think or believe that Karl would type that, because then he
would be putting his own foot in his mouth.  He wasn't always Christian.

> : You will only see what you want to see.  I see from the heart.... I see a
> : bunch of men who mean well, but are not going about it in the right way.
> : They are leaving too many people out by depending on Christianity as their
> : source.
> 
> What i 'd like to ask is "How does Promise Keepers NOT support human rights
> as a whole?"

John we're going to have to agree just to disagree on this.

When an organization is saying they only way to salvation is through Jesus
Christ, then that organization is not supporting people who are
non-Christians.

To support human rights as a whole an organization should not be telling
anyone that they must believe in Christianity or the only way to be saved
is to believe.

> : I don't support special rights either.  Just the basic human rights.
> : There is a difference.
> 
> Please explain.

Special rights would be... We must give special attention or rights to
someone because they fit into a certain catagory.

Basic right would be... We are all equal and should not be judged.  We
should all be treated the same respect and dignity as we want others to
treat us.

I support the basic right.

> : The only proof that I need is the fact that they preach from the Bible
> and : not their hearts.  I've read the Bible and it does speak for
> itself.  And : like I've said, I've read several other *Bibles* from
> other religions.  : Most say the same basic things and preach the same
> basic rules in life. 
> 
> What did you note were the basic differences? What was at the heart of some
> of those other beliefs?

The basic differences was on Jesus, number of God(s), what is God, heaven
and hell... just to name a few.

> : What about the men out there who are not Christian?  What about the men
> : that are Jewish?
> 
> Can one still be considered Jewish if they still believe that Jesus was the
> messiah?

Tough one to call.  I can't answer that because I'm not Jewish.  But I do
have a friend that is.  He would answer no.  He does not believe that
Jesus was the messiah.

> : Show me proof where the PKers include Jewish men, and what they believe in
> : and support.
> 
> What kind of proof would you be interested in? As i asked, would you
> consider someone who still believed in Jesus Jewish? If so, i'd like to
> point out some of the rabbis who spoke & prayed at PK. You can also ask PK
> to e-mail you some other resources...

How about Islamics?  Or Native Americans?  Just to name a few more.

Like Christianity, Judism has many different denominations.  It really
depends on the denomination of each of these religions.  You will get
different answers from different denominations, just like Christianity.

There are many Christian denominations that believe the Mormons are not
Christian, but in fact they are a cult.  I've heard many Christians refer
to Mormons as such.

And there are many Christian denominations that just don't agree with each
other on sexual orientation, birth control, if women can be a priest, if a
priest can marry, and there are others.  Maybe the PKers are addressing
these, I don't know.

Tracy


browntr@engr.orst.edu                   | tracyh@teleport.COM
http://www.engr.orst.edu/~browntr/      | http://www.teleport.com/~tracyh/
I would like to find a man who wants    | Have you told your children
to be married and a father for life.    | you love them today?

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