🚀 go-pugleaf

Trevor Wilson wrote:
> 
> "Howard Ferstler" <ferstle@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:42D4755A.79ACD965@attglobal.net...

> >> > Close enough to zero to essentially shunt all of an amp's
> >> > audible output around the speaker load and shut the amp
> >> > down.

> >> **That is not what you stated previously. Do you now admit that a short
> >> circuit is not zero Ohms?

> > As one real expert posted previously, yes, it is not zero
> > ohms. But for all practical purposes, when it is in parallel
> > with a speaker load it might as well be zero.
 
> **Without knowing the nature of the short circuit, it is not possible to
> state this with any certainty. But you'd know that, if you knew anything
> about electronics. Of course, you don't, so you continue to make fundamental
> errors.

First, I served four years in the USAF as an electronics
technician, and so I do know something about electronics.
Not college level, but not chopped-liver level, either.
Second, I know that if you put a speaker in parallel with a
load that is but a small fraction of an ohm no significant
sound will come from that speaker. How could it when the
vast bulk of the current flow is heading through that
borderline short?

> >> **Good. Nor do I. There is absolutely nothing mysterious about the
> >> amplifiers I referred you to.

> > Good. That means they sound like all other good amps, at
> > least up to their respective clipping levels. If you say
> > otherwise, you are a con artist.

> **Indeed. They sound identical to other amplifiers which measure identically
> to them. There has never been any argument over this point.

Yeah, but below a certain point ultra-super measurements are
gilding the lily. I claim that even a good, mid-priced
receiver will have as good an amplifier sound as your exotic
amp. Add to that the existence of a preamp section, surround
sound (still more channels) and a tuner, and the receiver
wins the contest, hands down. Your amp is a money pit.

> >> Nothing whatsoever. Just good, solid
> >> engineering. Oops, I forgot. You don't have a clue about how amplifiers
> >> actually work, do you? ALL amplifiers are a mystery to you.

> > I know enough about them to realize that when somebody like
> > you claims that a super-duper amp he is dealing with sounds
> > superior to all others that individual is pulling a sales
> > scam.
 
> **IF I had said such a thing (which I have not), then you would be entitled
> to say so.

OK, so your amp sounds like all other good amps. Good for
it. Glad we have reached this agreement.

> >> >> Is that opposed to
> >> >> retired librarians who have no understanding of Thevenin's Theorem?

> >> > At least I do not claim that exotic speaker wires have an
> >> > audible advantage over thick lamp cord.
>
> >> **Of course you don't! You're an idiot. I've patiently explained how SOME
> >> cables can affect SOME loudspeakers in SOME systems, many times.

> > Yeah, when the speakers are 100 yards from the amp.
 
> **Actually, not that far. Depending on the speaker, of course. And that is
> the difference between you and me. You state, unequivocally, that speaker
> cables are all the same. I argue that certain systems can benefit from low
> inductance cables. IOW: You are wrong.

Such speaker systems are too problematic to fool with. Just
how long a speaker run are we talking about, by the way.

> >>  At least I do not
> >> > con people into believing the audio equivalent of the tooth
> >> > fairy.

> >> **Sure you do. You rave about the books you write.

> > Interestingly, so have others raved about them. In any case,
> > getting into a insult-trading contest here is doing you a
> > hell of a lot more damage than it is doing me.
 
> **I'm not insulting you. I'm simply stating fact.

Actually, you are getting into a pissing contest here that
is doing you not a lot of good out there in the business
world. Believe me, you have a lot more to lose here than I.

> >> Yet you have no in-depth
> >> knowledge about the topic.

> > I know enough to be able to spot a con artist in action.
 
> **You may well do so. You are also incapable of spotting people who actually
> know their business, however.

Yeah, and that ain't you.
 
> > Given that this series of posts is being read in Australia,
> > are you sure you care to continue?
 
> **I have no problem with allowing you to make a complete idiot of yourself.

Well, they will do me no harm, whatsoever. On the other
hand, you will at least lose some points in your home area
because of your performance here. I suggest you cut and run
while you have the chance.

> >> All you understand is the superficial stuff.

> > For guys like you, amp and wire scams are "superficial
> > stuff."
 
> **Are they? I presume you have some actual evidence? A Google cite will be
> fine.

Common sense works better.
 
> >> >> You and your comments lack any kind of credibility.

> >> > This, from a guy who claims that his special amp (or one
> >> > that he sells, since I do not believe he designed it) has
> >> > qualities that set it apart from all other decently designed
> >> > versions. Yeah, it may sound different, but if so that is
> >> > because there is something seriously wrong with it.

> >> **And yet, you speak from a position of extreme ignorance. You have no
> >> technical abilities to understand what sets some amps apart form others.

> > I can fairly listen to the things, pal. I can compare at
> > matched levels and can determine that exotic technologies
> > notwithstanding, all good amps sound the same up to their
> > respective clipping levels. OK, with really wild and weird
> > speaker loads some amps have advantages. But with the
> > speakers most people use, amps is amps. And there are
> > conventional amps out there that are also able to handle
> > rather weird loads. They may cost a bit more, but there is
> > still nothing exotic about their design.
 
> **How would you know?

They sounded the same as all the others, tweako. What else
do you want other than they all sounded the same? Actually,
the Son of Ampzilla unit I recently reviewed was
bulletproof. However, with normal speaker loads it sounded
no better than a rather old Yamaha integrated amp I had on
hand. Admittedly, the speaker load was not particularly
demanding.

> >> You
> >> have no experience with the amp in question anyway.

> > I have heard and compared enough good amps to know that if
> > your amp sounds different from them there is something wrong
> > with it.
 
> **IOW: You don't know.

Well, you are the guy who claims that the amp sounds
"better" than most of the competition. If the competition
all sounds pretty much the same, I think that we can
conclude that those amps sound that way because they have
inaudible distortion. I mean what is the chance that all of
those somewhat different topologies all had identical
audible distortions? If your amp sounds different from the
crowd, as far as I am concerned it is less accurate than
they.
 
> >> >> Go study up on the Dewey
> >> >> Decimal System (or whatever is used in libraries now) and get back to
> >> >> us.

> >> > Why on earth would you want to learn about a library
> >> > cataloging system that went out of date decades ago?

> >> **Exactly. It has as much relevance to all of us, as your comments about
> >> audio equipment. You have no real knowledge about what you speak.

> > I can spot a con artist, and it this day and age that is
> > more important than the ability to spout technical jargon
> > and rave about one's experience repairing and installing
> > gear.
 
> **It is very important, when discussing why an amp shuts down, when turned
> up to moderate levels. And it is in this area where your knowledge is sadly
> lacking.

Hey, I never said it would not shut down. I simply said that
at any level it would not be able to put any sound into the
speakers. This would be the case, because the VAST bulk of
the current flow would be through the shorted-together lead
in parallel with the speaker.

> > OK, here is your chance to repent.
 
> **Repent what, exactly? Be precise and use Google quotes as often as you
> feel necessary.

Just follow the guide I wrote below.
 
>  Admit that all good amps
> > sound the same up to their respective clipping points when
> > driving normal speaker loads and admit that for home-audio
> > applications good,
 
> **I will admit that all amps, which demonstrate identical specs, do, indeed,
> sound identical.

And now I suppose you are going to say that your very
special amp has specs that are superior to all (or at least
most) others. My contention, however, is that once you get
below a certain audibility threshold all amps, including
yours, assuming it is properly designed, sound the same - at
least with standard speaker loads and below clipping levels.

The funny thing about you is that you probably sell people
speakers that require an amp like yours. You basically force
people into a situation where they have to purchase an
exotic amp to power those oddball speaker loads. Yeah, I am
sure you do not do this all the time, but when the
opportunity knocks you step up to the plate and take a swing
at the ball.
 
>  decently thick lamp cord works as well as
> > exotic speaker wire.
 
> **For most systems, yes. For SOME systems, no.

Systems that nobody would use in a typical home-listening
environment. Tell me, just how often do you recommend heavy
lamp cord for typical home installations? Do you push the
exotic stuff even in those more mundane situations, as well
as in these situations that involve SOME systems?
 
>  If you say that I will apologize for
> > what I have written about you.
 
> **No, you won't. You're pig-ignorant. You will NEVER apologise to me.

Well, not now I won't.

Howard Ferstler