🚀 go-pugleaf

Francois R. Velde writes:

> * Silesia: or, an eagle displayed sable crowned or, on its breast a
>    crescent trefoiled and a crosslet argent.

I picked up somewhere the notion that this crescent-thing was originally
intended as a representation of the eagle's wing bones, or something like
that.  I believe I have seen them blazoned in German as "klee-stengeln"
(very approximately recalled).  Can anyone confirm/verify/correct this?

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598

The Czech Republic has adopted the Czechoslovak flag for itself, instead of
the pre-independePoland-lookalike. This was a Good Thing IMg IMHO, as the
blue field may be construed to represent Moravia.

The flag of Slovaktheir accustomed white-blue-red, with the state arms
in the middle. Therefore it is impossible to be confused with Slovenia, who
have white-blue-red with the state arms in upper hoist corner, or with
Russia, who have plain white-blue-redRussia, who have plain white-blue-red. ;-)

tsahib.
-- 
***  Tero.J.Heikkinen@hut.fi  ***********  Disclaimer wanted: Apply within  ***
"Well, I'm an accountant, and consequently too boring to be of interest."

In article <1993Jan04.193346.17356@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Francois R. Velde writes:
>
>> * Silesia: or, an eagle displayed sable crowned or, on its breast a
>>    crescent trefoiled and a crosslet argent.
>
>I picked up somewhere the notion that this crescent-thing was originally
>intended as a representation of the eagle's wing bones, or something like
>that.  I believe I have seen them blazoned in German as "klee-stengeln"
>(very approximately recalled).  Can anyone confirm/verify/correct this?

So that's what these things are! I always thought the poor birds were
crucified on a crescent :-)

I trodded over to the library, and here is what I found. 

Kleestengel(n), or Kleeblattstengel, means clover-stalk. It is described 
as an elongated clasp extending sideways from the breast of the eagle and
ending in a trefoil.  There is one on each wing (usually). Examples include
Prussia, Brandenburg, Tirol.  Silesia, however, is a true crescent (it
crosses over the breast). Neubecker states that Silesia's crescent is 
"often" trefoiled, but the Brockhaus encyclopedia has only a plain
crescent (with the cross issuing from the middle of the crescent). 

Note: in German, to drink a clover-leaf is to drink three glasses of Schnaps
on end. To drink a clover leaf with stem (Kleeblatt mit Stengel) is to 
drink four. I don't know what happens after four...

-- 

	Francois Velde

A complement on Kleestengeln from Woodward's Treatise on Heraldry, p.344:

"The Klee-Stengeln which appear on each of the wings of the eagles displayed
of Prussia, Brandenburg,, etc., in the form of a golden trefoil with a long
curved stalk reaching to the breast, appear to be only the development of 
some simple lines which are found in early examples of the 13th century to
indicate the anatomical construction of the eagle's wings (see Hildenbrand's
Heraldicus Musterbuch, plate xxviii, fig.9)."

-- 

	Francois Velde

First of all, Francois, thank you for your informative posts.  Could you
or someone answer three quick questions?  Thanks!

velde@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois R. Velde) writes:
: * Silesia: or, an eagle displayed sable crowned or, on its breast a crescent 
: 	trefoiled and a crosslet argent.

1.  How do you depict a crown or against a field or?  Is it outlined sable?

2.  What is a crescent "trefoiled"?

3.  Is this "crosslet" the same as a "cross crosslet" in English; that is,
    a cross each of whose four arms has a short cross-piece?
-- 
Fr. John Woolley (jww@evolving.com); vastly enthusiastic about Augustine,
Austen, babies, Bach, backgammon, baseball, beer, the Bible, Botticelli, Burke,
Chesterton, Dante, Dixieland, hardboiled, Hitchcock, Dr Johnson, Latin, Mozart,
Shakespeare/de Vere, St Teresa, Tolkien, Trollope, Fats Waller, and Washington

In article <1993Jan05.182134.132218@evolving.com> jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley) writes:
>velde@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois R. Velde) writes:
>: * Silesia: or, an eagle displayed sable crowned or, on its breast a crescent 
>: 	trefoiled and a crosslet argent.
>
>1.  How do you depict a crown or against a field or?  Is it outlined sable?

Beats me. I suppose you would. I double-checked to make sure: in Woodward's,
page 500, Silesia: or, an eagle displayed sabel crowned of the field".

>2.  What is a crescent "trefoiled"?

Same source, page 706: "trefoiled: as applied to a cross, denotes that its 
arms terminate in trefoils; as applied to another Ordinary, it denotes that
it is edged with trefoils." Trefoil comes from the Latin trifolium, three-leaf.
The French call it tre`fle.

>3.  Is this "crosslet" the same as a "cross crosslet" in English; that is,
>    a cross each of whose four arms has a short cross-piece?

Same source, p.682: "crosslet: a diminutive of the cross." It just means here
a small cross, placed on top of the crescent in the latter's middle part (on
the breast of the eagle).

-- 

	Francois Velde

In article <1993Jan4.204901.3595@nntp.hut.fi> tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen) writes:

>The flag of Slovaktheir accustomed white-blue-red, with the state arms
>in the middle. Therefore it is impossible to be confused with Slovenia, who
>have white-blue-red with the state arms in upper hoist corner, or with
>Russia, who have plain white-blue-red

Or with Croatia, who has the arms of Kolyman (chequy Gules and Argent) in
the middle of their white-blue-red flag...

I've heard that the white-blue-red colours are considered as the international
colours of Slavic peoples, and therefore displayed in their flags. Can anyone
deny or confirm this ?



--++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo FINLAND              ++ Edward III. All you need is an  ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like Duke of Alencon.     ++

In article <1993Jan5.232204.1671@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:

[quoting me]

>>The flag of Slovaktheir accustomed white-blue-red, with the state arms
>>in the middle. Therefore it is impossible to be confused with Slovenia, who
>>have white-blue-red with the state arms in upper hoist corner, or with
>>Russia, who have plain white-blue-red

>Or with Croatia, who has the arms of Kolyman (chequy Gules and Argent) in
>the middle of their white-blue-red flag...

Isn't the Croatian flag red-white-blue, with the arms to differentiate from
the Netherlands? (Or Luxemburg, who use a lighter shade of blue)

>I've heard that the white-blue-red colours are considered as the international
>colours of Slavic peoples, and therefore displayed in their flags. Can anyone
>deny or confirm this ?

I've heard the same, although it might also be a common delusion hereabouts:-)

tsahib.



-- 
***  Tero.J.Heikkinen@hut.fi  ***********  Disclaimer wanted: Apply within  ***
"Well, I'm an accountant, and consequently too boring to be of interest."

Fr. John asks about the arms of Silesia.

The crown: I imagine it is outlined. (It should also slightly change the 
outline of the eagle's head, which would help draw attention to it. I'm sure
this isn't a unique example; crowns on beasts frequently break tincture 
against the field.)

The crescent: Dollars to doughnuts the crescent merely has trefoils issuing 
from the two horns. This would make it a hybrid form between a crescent
and klee-stengeln, which is pretty easy to believe.

Andrea Habura

In article <n292!=d@rpi.edu> habura@vccnw13.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
>Fr. John asks about the arms of Silesia.
>
>The crown: I imagine it is outlined. (It should also slightly change the 
>outline of the eagle's head, which would help draw attention to it. I'm sure
>this isn't a unique example; crowns on beasts frequently break tincture 
>against the field.)

I had a couple of examples in my post on byzantine heraldry (Lascaris and
Cantacuzene both have a field or and an eagle crowned or).

>The crescent: Dollars to doughnuts the crescent merely has trefoils issuing 
>from the two horns. This would make it a hybrid form between a crescent
>and klee-stengeln, which is pretty easy to believe.

That is what I meant; sorry for the confusion.

-- 

	Francois Velde

In article <1993Jan5.232204.1671@nntp.hut.fi>, c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
...
> I've heard that the white-blue-red colours are considered as the international
> colours of Slavic peoples, and therefore displayed in their flags. Can anyone
> deny or confirm this ?
....

Actually, red, white and blue aren't so much the colours of the Slavic peoples
as the colours of the Pan-Slavic Movement, which was inititated around
1848 and flourished during the latter half of the 19th century, when most 
Slavic countries were bound up as vassals, dominions, colonies of others'
empires (Serbia, Montenegro and Russia being the exceptions). Thus, the
independence movements of the early 20th century gave rise to most of the
ex-Yugoslav nations adopting red, white and blue, as did Slovakia and 
Serbo-Lusatian national consciousness. I am not sure whether Russia followed 
or inspired the colours. I know that the Polish colours (white and red) are
independent of this, stemming from a story about a sunset and a white eagle,
but am not sure what the history of Bohemia's colours are. As I understand
it, Bohemia (or "the Czech lands", for English-language-manglers) had a red
and white flag just after WWI, and just before the Czechoslovak flag was
devised for the federation by including a blue triangle for Slovakia. Anyone
confirm the Bohemian colours ?

The main exceptions to the red-white-blue palette are Bulgaria (white green red
I think ???) and Ukraina (blue over yellow). I have no idea what the Kaszub national movement's colours
were - any info. on this one ?

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Czernkowski           Lecturer, School of Accounting, University of NSW
                                      PO Box 1, Kensington NSW 2033, Australia
VOICE: +61 2 697 2435          FAX +61 2 662 6130          HOME +61 2 663 8150
eMail: 89b0016@csdvax.csd.unsw.edu.au    (better at R.Czernkowski@unsw.edu.au)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------