🚀 go-pugleaf

buster38@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> 
> WE should hold them accountable...through the same judicial system that now exists - with a
> few improvements.

By "we" I presume you are speaking of society-at-large.

> 
> I agree that it would be difficult to assign accountability in some cases.  However, in the
> case of the school bus driver who lost her temper and jerked on the brakes, and thereby not
> only endangered the students but also provided a really poor example to the students,  I
> believe she SHOULD own up to her culpability.  Additionally, every student on the bus should
> pay a penalty for contributing to the mishap.  Additionally, every parent of every student on
> the bus should pay a pentalty for contributing to the misbehavior of the students on the
> bus.   This would not be an infinite journey.  All the students are known.  The bus driver is
> known.  The students parents are known.  The judge hearing this case should assign measures
> of justice according to the misbehavior.

I have grave misgivings in-general about the concept of group-accountability
for a specific individual's misbehavior; that concept has led to some fairly
amazing abuses throughout history - however, it is true that "it takes two
to tango" and lots of kids - who wouldn't be misbehaving if they were alone
- will act up and get out of hand if they're trying to impress their peers.

> 
> The reader who advised that the bus driver should say nothing to any of the cops displays the
> current contempt for accountability of which you so eloquently speak.  We have all become so
> cynical about the definition of right and wrong.

It's true. Well, as the ancients said "no vendor cries 'rotting fish';
therefor let the buyer beware" - both the innocent and the guilty may be
expected to deny a crime. 

But there is indeed IMHO this pervasive mentality which I consider to be a
criminal mindset, that no crime occurred if apprehension is evaded, that
there is no transgression without conviction. This promotes the inevitable
decline and downfall of society as far as I'm concerned - basically it
promotes the skills of evasion and obfuscation; it rewards the thief, the
ninja, and the spy. But what is the cause of this? I believe it's our
excessive reliance on imprisonment and on fines as punishment for criminals.
I believe we should place a much higher value and greater reliance on
contrition and on restitution, not only contrition and restitution delivered
to the aggrieved, but also for violation of civic virtues. One ought not to
be sorry merely for one's transgressions against the victim, one should have
the attitude that one has increased the rate of decay of one's entire
surround.

How can we as a society enable a greater common striving towards "decency"?
I think that among other things, we need to do a better job of impressing on
the kids that there is such a thing as virtue and honor, and supply them
with a much better vocabulary expressive of contempt for dishonorable
actions and attitudes. A revival of such terms of contempt as "sneak",
"creep", "liar", "cheat", and "oathbreaker" might be useful. As it is today,
if you call someone a liar, everyone will say "oh, everybody lies" and to
make it worse, it's true. 

> 
> As to your question regarding non-denominational ethic's being taught in K-12.  I'm an
> atheist and appreciate the fact that there are strict rules about the separation of church
> and state, but
> I think you could translate at least four of the ten commandments into common english,
> justify the logic for use in human society and teach it as a way of dealing with each other
> in life -  in any classroom in the US.
>              1.  Respect your parents and your elders for they have experience and wisdom
> from
>                    which you can learn.
>              2.  Don't Kill.  Life is too short for all of us.  There are too many
> contributions we need
>                    from each other.  To eliminate even one of us diminishes the whole.
>              3.  Don't lie.  Credibility and stability requires honesty.
>              4.  Don't steal or try to take things that belong to others.
> 
>        and the golden rule:  Do to and for others what you'ld like others to do to and for
> you.
> 
> Internalization of these rules requires no religious affiliation and will bring about social
> stabilization - which in turn, brings economic stabilization, which in turn, brings about an
> environment that allows for societal advancement..at all levels.
> 
> I'm not an educator...so I don't know the current curriculum rules.  Is "ethic's" not allowed
> in K-12 schooling??

At present, there are many in education who appear to have the attitude that
"ethics" are "decadent presumptions of the cult of Dead White Males" or
somesuch nonsense. Or perhaps they are too lazy to translate cultural
precepts which may have originally been delivered in a religious/ethnic
context (the Ten Commandments) into a nondenominational context.

Personally, as a pagan, I'm quite ready to suggest that there's a perfectly
good deity or ideal which most people including athiests wouldn't mind
seeing given a bit of veneration; no matter the culture this ideal is
classically venerated. That would be Justice. It consists entirely of being
inclined to render to others that which is their due. 

The best point of promoting an early respect for Justice is the simple fact
that if you teach your kids to venerate Justice, it will cause the kids to
ask "So just what exactly _is_ Justice?" - and that may well be the most
important question anyone can ever ask. If you define it as "being inclined
to render unto others that which is their due", this of course begs the
question "what exactly are others due?"  - also a very important question,
and if more people thought about this, and thought about it often, the world
would be a much better place. 

I suspect that if people taught their kids to ask, first and foremost, "is
this just?" and then to consider that the longer the explanation of how it
is just, the less likely that it really is, the kids will somehow figure out
that it takes less time to do the right thing by instinct than to
rationalize an excuse for doing the wrong thing.

> 
> buster
> 

<snips previous>

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