🚀 go-pugleaf

I like the way you think, Klaatu.

Baraada nichtu......

Buster

klaatu wrote:

> buster38@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >
> > WE should hold them accountable...through the same judicial system that now exists - with a
> > few improvements.
>
> By "we" I presume you are speaking of society-at-large.
>
> >
> > I agree that it would be difficult to assign accountability in some cases.  However, in the
> > case of the school bus driver who lost her temper and jerked on the brakes, and thereby not
> > only endangered the students but also provided a really poor example to the students,  I
> > believe she SHOULD own up to her culpability.  Additionally, every student on the bus should
> > pay a penalty for contributing to the mishap.  Additionally, every parent of every student on
> > the bus should pay a pentalty for contributing to the misbehavior of the students on the
> > bus.   This would not be an infinite journey.  All the students are known.  The bus driver is
> > known.  The students parents are known.  The judge hearing this case should assign measures
> > of justice according to the misbehavior.
>
> I have grave misgivings in-general about the concept of group-accountability
> for a specific individual's misbehavior; that concept has led to some fairly
> amazing abuses throughout history - however, it is true that "it takes two
> to tango" and lots of kids - who wouldn't be misbehaving if they were alone
> - will act up and get out of hand if they're trying to impress their peers.
>
> >
> > The reader who advised that the bus driver should say nothing to any of the cops displays the
> > current contempt for accountability of which you so eloquently speak.  We have all become so
> > cynical about the definition of right and wrong.
>
> It's true. Well, as the ancients said "no vendor cries 'rotting fish';
> therefor let the buyer beware" - both the innocent and the guilty may be
> expected to deny a crime.
>
> But there is indeed IMHO this pervasive mentality which I consider to be a
> criminal mindset, that no crime occurred if apprehension is evaded, that
> there is no transgression without conviction. This promotes the inevitable
> decline and downfall of society as far as I'm concerned - basically it
> promotes the skills of evasion and obfuscation; it rewards the thief, the
> ninja, and the spy. But what is the cause of this? I believe it's our
> excessive reliance on imprisonment and on fines as punishment for criminals.
> I believe we should place a much higher value and greater reliance on
> contrition and on restitution, not only contrition and restitution delivered
> to the aggrieved, but also for violation of civic virtues. One ought not to
> be sorry merely for one's transgressions against the victim, one should have
> the attitude that one has increased the rate of decay of one's entire
> surround.
>
> How can we as a society enable a greater common striving towards "decency"?
> I think that among other things, we need to do a better job of impressing on
> the kids that there is such a thing as virtue and honor, and supply them
> with a much better vocabulary expressive of contempt for dishonorable
> actions and attitudes. A revival of such terms of contempt as "sneak",
> "creep", "liar", "cheat", and "oathbreaker" might be useful. As it is today,
> if you call someone a liar, everyone will say "oh, everybody lies" and to
> make it worse, it's true.
>
> >
> > As to your question regarding non-denominational ethic's being taught in K-12.  I'm an
> > atheist and appreciate the fact that there are strict rules about the separation of church
> > and state, but
> > I think you could translate at least four of the ten commandments into common english,
> > justify the logic for use in human society and teach it as a way of dealing with each other
> > in life -  in any classroom in the US.
> >              1.  Respect your parents and your elders for they have experience and wisdom
> > from
> >                    which you can learn.
> >              2.  Don't Kill.  Life is too short for all of us.  There are too many
> > contributions we need
> >                    from each other.  To eliminate even one of us diminishes the whole.
> >              3.  Don't lie.  Credibility and stability requires honesty.
> >              4.  Don't steal or try to take things that belong to others.
> >
> >        and the golden rule:  Do to and for others what you'ld like others to do to and for
> > you.
> >
> > Internalization of these rules requires no religious affiliation and will bring about social
> > stabilization - which in turn, brings economic stabilization, which in turn, brings about an
> > environment that allows for societal advancement..at all levels.
> >
> > I'm not an educator...so I don't know the current curriculum rules.  Is "ethic's" not allowed
> > in K-12 schooling??
>
> At present, there are many in education who appear to have the attitude that
> "ethics" are "decadent presumptions of the cult of Dead White Males" or
> somesuch nonsense. Or perhaps they are too lazy to translate cultural
> precepts which may have originally been delivered in a religious/ethnic
> context (the Ten Commandments) into a nondenominational context.
>
> Personally, as a pagan, I'm quite ready to suggest that there's a perfectly
> good deity or ideal which most people including athiests wouldn't mind
> seeing given a bit of veneration; no matter the culture this ideal is
> classically venerated. That would be Justice. It consists entirely of being
> inclined to render to others that which is their due.
>
> The best point of promoting an early respect for Justice is the simple fact
> that if you teach your kids to venerate Justice, it will cause the kids to
> ask "So just what exactly _is_ Justice?" - and that may well be the most
> important question anyone can ever ask. If you define it as "being inclined
> to render unto others that which is their due", this of course begs the
> question "what exactly are others due?"  - also a very important question,
> and if more people thought about this, and thought about it often, the world
> would be a much better place.
>
> I suspect that if people taught their kids to ask, first and foremost, "is
> this just?" and then to consider that the longer the explanation of how it
> is just, the less likely that it really is, the kids will somehow figure out
> that it takes less time to do the right thing by instinct than to
> rationalize an excuse for doing the wrong thing.
>
> >
> > buster
> >
>
> <snips previous>
>
> --
>     Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae.
>           Re-transmission of this e-mail expressly prohibited.
>   Non-UseNet re-transmission of this article is a willful violation of US
>  Copyright Law and the Berne Convention. Statutory damages are $250,000.00
> Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth:   Meow.    http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/