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Article #928Re: FALSE PREMISES AND INVALID ARGUMENTS
From: xxein
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 02:08
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 02:08
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4420 bytes
On Dec 10, 6:12 am, Pentcho Valev <pva...@yahoo.com> wrote: > In 1850 Clausius deduced (the prototype of) the second law of > thermodynamics in this way: > > http://web.lemoyne.edu/~giunta/Clausius.html > "Ueber die bewegende Kraft der Warme" 1850 Rudolf Clausius: "Carnot > assumed, as has already been mentioned, that the equivalent of the > work done by heat is found in the mere transfer of heat from a hotter > to a colder body, while the quantity of heat remains undiminished. The > latter part of this assumption--namely, that the quantity of heat > remains undiminished--contradicts our former principle, and must > therefore be rejected... (...) It is this maximum of work which must > be compared with the heat transferred. When this is done it appears > that there is in fact ground for asserting, with Carnot, that it > depends only on the quantity of the heat transferred and on the > temperatures t and tau of the two bodies A and B, but not on the > nature of the substance by means of which the work is done. (...) If > we now suppose that there are two substances of which the one can > produce more work than the other by the transfer of a given amount of > heat, or, what comes to the same thing, needs to transfer less heat > from A to B to produce a given quantity of work, we may use these two > substances alternately by producing work with one of them in the above > process. At the end of the operations both bodies are in their > original condition; further, the work produced will have exactly > counterbalanced the work done, and therefore, by our former principle, > the quantity of heat can have neither increased nor diminished. The > only change will occur in the distribution of the heat, since more > heat will be transferred from B to A than from A to B, and so on the > whole heat will be transferred from B to A. By repeating these two > processes alternately it would be possible, without any expenditure of > force or any other change, to transfer as much heat as we please from > a cold to a hot body, and this is not in accord with the other > relations of heat, since it always shows a tendency to equalize > temperature differences and therefore to pass from hotter to colder > bodies." > > I have always been claiming that Clausius' premises are true but the > argument is INVALID. Here are the premises: > > 1. (TRUE) In the absence of irreversible changes in the surroundings > influencing the process, heat always flows from hot to cold. > > 2. (TRUE) Perpetuum mobile of the first kind is impossible. > > In fact, there is a third FALSE premise which, if explicitly added to > the set of premises, makes the argument VALID: > > 3. (FALSE) The process Clausius considers occurs in the absence of > irreversible changes in the surroundings influencing it. > > In physical sciences, invalidity of arguments can be interpreted in > terms of falsehood of premises. > > Pentcho Valev > pva...@yahoo.com xxein: You don't know the physic to make a valid statement.
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X-Google-Thread: 237b8ad48,cf7085d2f0aa1f86 X-Google-Attributes: gid237b8ad48,public,usenet X-Google-NewGroupId: yes X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII Path: arc1-ca.pugleaf.net!g2news1.google.com!postnews.google.com!f16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail From: xxein <xxein@comcast.net> Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity,sci.physics,fr.sci.physique,fr.sci.astrophysique Subject: Re: FALSE PREMISES AND INVALID ARGUMENTS Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:08:12 -0800 (PST) Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 57 Message-ID: <03b629f6-7c3e-41de-a38f-accaa66904af@f16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> References: <34b16d05-8063-4c3e-a5ed-251dbca34ebc@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 76.110.146.230 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: posting.google.com 1260497292 13981 127.0.0.1 (11 Dec 2009 02:08:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 02:08:12 +0000 (UTC) Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: f16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com; posting-host=76.110.146.230; posting-account=0hs16QoAAACtAk44qiyJw2TmTxN8_NXm User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; GTB6; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe)