🚀 go-pugleaf

"Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@guesswhatuia.no> wrote in message
news:47B0B5D6.5080404@guesswhatuia.no...
> Max Keon wrote:
>> Eric Gisse wrote:
>>> Max Keon wrote:
---
>>>> My equation gives the correct answer.
>>>
>>> Does it?
>>>
>>> Let's see the computation.
>>
>> Firstly, all clocks are fixed with the ECI frame.
>>
>>  1+(GM/r)/c^2: r=6378000 meters for the surface radius clock:
>>  1+(6.67e-11*5.97e24/6378000)/3e8^2 = 1.000000000694 seconds
>> per 1 second of a clock that's unaffected by Earth's gravity.

> Wrong sign.
> Should be (1-(GM/r)/c^2) = 1 - 6.94e-10
> A clock at zero altitude, stationary in the ECI frame
> runs slow by the factor (1 - 6.94e-10) compared to a clock
> unaffected by Earth's gravity.

What I was trying to say is that each second at the surface
radius clock is 1.000000000694 of the unaffected clock seconds.
The unaffected clock was the benchmark.
---

>> If radioactive iron is chosen as the frequency generator in an
>> atomic clock, a GPS radius clock will run _slower_ than the
>> surface radius clock (all fixed with the ECI frame), by 4.55e-5
>> seconds per sidereal day. Not faster. The Pound and Rebka
>> experiment proves that gamma rays are generated in a vastly
>> different environment to that of lesser frequency rays.

> How did you arrive at this remarkable conclusion?
> It is wrong.

Once again, this is the blurb given in "Basic Physics 2, by
S.L.Martin and A.K.Connor", (1960+ vintage), briefly describing
the purpose of the Pound and Rebka experiment.

-"In 1958 an effect was discovered by Mossbauer, working in U.S.A
-and known as the Mossbauer effect, which enabled very tiny
-frequency differences to be detected and measured. In 1960, using
-the Mossbauer effect, Pound and Rebka succeeded in measuring the
-extremely small change (only about 1 part in 4e+14) of frequency
-of the y-rays emitted by a sample of radioactive iron when it
-was moved from the bottom of the tower to the top of a tower 74
-feet high. The observed frequency change agreed with the
-relativity prediction within 5%."

Notice that this information was gathered around the time when
the experiment was conducted. The authors would have had very
detailed knowledge of a recently conducted experiment, surely?
It's hardly likely that their description is flawed.

According to the description given, the emitted y ray frequency
reduced _as the radioactive iron sample was raised to the tower
top_. That is NOT how a normal Caesium driven atomic clock
behaves.

But perhaps I've just misinterpreted the description. It really
doesn't matter though, the theory of gravitationally redshifted
light is still wrong.

> f_h/f_o = (1-(GM/r)/c^2)/(1-(GM/R)/c^2)~= 1-(GM/r)/c^2 + (GM/R)/c^2

Which is .9999999999999919 tower top seconds per 1 second at
the tower base. That oscillator is running faster deeper into
Earth's gravity well. A Caesium atomic clock oscillator runs
slower. Regardless of whether that is so or not, none of that
has anything to do with redshifted wavelengths on the climb from
a gravity well, as you will see.

> where:
>   f_h = frequency of gamma photon at the top of the tower
>   f_o = frequency of gamma photon at the bottom of the tower
>   r = the distance centre of the Earth - top of tower
>   R = radius of the Earth (at the bottom of the tower)
>
>  r = R + h, h = height of tower
>  f_h/f_o ~= (1 + ((GM/R)/c^2)(1 - R/(R+h))
>  When h/R << 1 :
>  R/(R+h) ~= (1-h/R)
>
>  f_h/f_o ~= 1 + ((GM/R)/c^2)(h/R)
>  g = GM/R^2
>
>  f_h/f_o ~= 1 + gh/c^2
>
>  Which is in accordance with the Pound & Rebka experiment.


Here's another problem for you, in your reply to Henry Wilson on
this thread. The experiment you have described in this excerpt
from that post is seriously flawed.

-But other experiments are made.
-In gravity probe A, a hydrogen maser was used as a clock.
-It transmitted a continuous wave with frequency ca. 1.42 GHz.
-This frequency can easily be, and was, directly measured
-from the ground. Every cycle was received.
-(The received frequency was compared to the frequency of
-  a signal reflected off the probe, to compensate for
-  Doppler effect. The gravitational shift was thus measured.)
-The rocket with the maser was launched straight up, and was
-inertial for most of the journey. It reached an altitude of 10000km.
-The relative gravitational frequency shift of the EM-radiation from
-that altitude was ca. 4.2E-10.

The assumption prior to conducting the experiment was that the
wavelengths from the ground source would extend enroute to the
onboard reflector carried on the rocket when the altitude
ceiling of 10000km was reached, and would then shorten back to
their original lengths on return to the point of origin.

The next assumption was that the hydrogen maser clock was
running faster at the ceiling altitude, according to GM/r/c^2,
which has been well confirmed.

Assumption (3) was that the wavelengths in the signal from the
maser clock would also shorten in the same proportions as the
return signal from the onboard reflector.

So, because the frequency in the reflected transmission fell
short of that from the maser clock, one could only conclude that
the transmission from the ground source to the reflector had been
redshifted. But that is not the case at all.

If the frequency of the round trip signal was constant throughout
the journey, and if the frequency from the maser clock was
constant on the journey to the ground based receiver, exactly the
same result would emerge. The maser clock rate is faster by
4.2e-10 seconds than the ground clock second. That's all the
experiment is demonstrating, regardless of how the clock rates
are compared.

Can you not see that?

Something else you may like to explain is how the frequency of
the received wave crests shown in this animation can be slowed
enroute to the reflector carried on the rocket then contract
closer together on the way back if the speed of light remains
constant throughout. Frequencies applicable to light are used
for this demonstration because photons seem to be endowed with
a mysterious wave property that permits them to behave in a
manner foreign to any normal E/M wave function. i.e. Photons
gain or lose energy as though they belong in the matter world.
Notice that the "photon wavelength" extends and contracts in
accordance with your theories.
 http://members.optusnet.com.au/maxkeon/redshft2.html
  (Image dimensions can only be specified in html)

That's another impossibility that is _blatantly_ obvious to
anyone with some measure of intelligence, by the way. Perhaps
you should think about that too.

-----

Max Keon