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"PoleyDee" <paul@nospam.sox.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:<QNoM7.16459$zh6.1781401@news1.cableinet.net>...

> Point of information.

I smell the blunt instrument of Propaganda (or of Ignorance).

> The faith of Islam does not encourage the hatred of non muslims.

So say you. However, almost without exception the "preachers"
in most mosques throughout the Islamic world say differently:
[This is so overwhelmingly the universal practice with them that
several news items have told of Islamic preachers who, failing
to spew out hatred and advocacy of violence against non-Muslims, 
are spending most of their time on the defensive against charges 
that they have been "bought" by the infidels.] This is no doubt
an overstatement, but the perception is quite startling: It is
as unimaginable that Christian preachers would advocate hatred of
non-Christians from their church pulpits... as it is that Muslim
preachers would advocate friendship with non-Muslims from theirs
(unless it is at some special occasion attended by non-Muslim
dignitaries or we're talking about a mosque in Europe or the U.S.).

Most importantly: the Koran says differently, exactly as I quoted. 

It would be nice indeed if, as persons who are as misinformed 
(or as purposefully lying?) as you [obviously I cannot make an 
informed judgment about someone I don't know] say, that "Islam" 
means "Peace" or some such when it does not, for it translates 
as "Submit!" as in: "Submit or die." What in the world would 
anybody expect from a militantly proselytizing religion that 
styles itself: "Submit" ...?!?!

Every aspect of Islam reflects its militant nature and history.
Here are a few quotes from easily assessable texts in Usenet
(make sure you unclude the complete URL in your browser's search):

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BBFE174.A653EC77%40aol.com&output=gplain

If not the most authoritative, at least the most renowned 
historian of the 20th Century, Will Durant's essay on "The 
Moslem Conquest" (page 459 of the "Our Oriental Heritage" 
volume in his massive "Story of Civilization) should suffice 
to hint at the scale of the human catastrophe that Islam has 
been to Planet Earth. --Other Usenet quotes of interest here:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8hkg1u%245k7%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&output=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8v7nb8%24nas%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&output=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=932877830.1804%40www.remarq.com&output=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=933668917.13366%40www.remarq.com&output=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Bharat-2232.990903%40news.mantra.com&output=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5785c0f4.0110022140.7a478f61%40posting.google.com&output=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d0197aa3.0110031244.54eb5d50%40posting.google.com&output=gplain

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8ljfag%244um%241%40gnamma.connect.com.au&output=gplain


There are no questions about the insistence of ALL Muslims 
that infidels are not welcomed in the Mulism holy places. None. 
This is NEVER a sign of anybody with any but the least friendly 
of intentions towards strangers. Indeed, this is the most typical
sign of paranoia, and the universal hallmark of those secretive 
cults which do not wish to let the world in on its true sinister 
intents and inner-working. And, sure enough... the Koran itself 
specifically warns against allowing non-Muslims to get hold of 
its text (for non-Muslims, would no doubt "misinterpret" its 
calls for genocide against them).

If the Saudis suffer the presence of Americans in their country 
it is only because they fear they would be murdered my Saddam 
Hussein were they not there. But their religion demands freedom 
from the "pollution" that the presence of non-Muslims, demonized
and dehumanized in Islam, in the Arabian peninsula represent
--And this means that Muslims will NEVER accept Israel's presence 
there... never, regardless of anything they might swear to the 
contrary, since the Koran explicitly grants Muslims leave to lie 
as much as they wish to non-Muslims in order to "set them up" 
for a subsequent stab in the back... which it also explicitly 
advocates doing! Now THAT's a holy book with no namby-pamby 
apologies for ya.

The entire 1,400 year history of Islam is one of unrelenting war 
and genocide against non-Muslims, even from the time of Mohammed,
whose "humanity" is proclaimed by Muslims because he gave his 
victims the "choice" of conversion to his cult or suffer the usual 
massacre! This is so much so the case that non-Muslim historians 
tell the sorry tale (and Muslim historians like to boast) of 
Islam's betrayals and genocides (amounting to some 60 million
victims so far, and continuing even unto this day ... from the 
genocide against the Armenians by the Turks, to places in Kashmir 
today where entire non-Muslim tribes have been reduced to mere 
handfuls of survivors): Making not only the German Nazi genocide 
of the 20th Century but all the instances of genocide by all the 
barbarians in human history--all of them--pale in comparison! 

> What you have done is quote passages 
> from Islamic Holy Books that seem to
> prove that Islam itself is a non-tolerant 
> faith that aims to become the
> exclusive faith on earth.

If we were talking in vacuo about sheer abstractions it would be
one thing, but the Koran is married to a historical context from 
which no shade of rose-colored glasses can divorce it. It is as if
you proposed that Nazi literature could be taken to be completely 
innocuous and harmless to everyone: No it can not... and neither 
can the venom and malefaction of the Koran be so easily dismissed
(except by hypocrites, the uneducated, and politicians looking to 
buy some ill-considered favor from Muslims which must invariably 
cost us all a Hell of a lot more down the line then it's worth).

If there were places in this world, either now or in historical 
times, in which Muslims did not practice to their full horror 
what is so clearly and unequivocally set down for them in their 
Koran... there would be SOME justification to contend that the 
Koran's holy commands were merely "words nobody really paid any
attention to." But the very sad fact is that, unlike the other 
religions of earth, the enslavement of Islam over its adherents 
is so complete that everywhere Islam has taken hold, there human 
civilization has become frozen in time (incapable on its own of 
again freeing itself from Islam's merciless subjugation--present 
day Iran being a classic example... where regardless of how much 
democracy is let loose there: there will never come a time when 
it is the people who really command their own destiny instead of 
the Islamic preachers). With only momentary respites occasioned 
mostly by military conquests over the liberated regions at the 
hands of non-Muslims (as with European colonial occupations which 
left behind native military establishments with enough of a taste 
for freedom from the Mullahs to determine to do everything in 
their power to prevent the usual conservative Islamic traditions 
from reclaiming their ancient power, as they did in Iran).

And there's no need for Koran verification of Muslim practices: 
Suffice it that NO country on earth where Muslims are a majority 
have a secular democratic government which not only permits but 
encourages the full pursuit and expression by its citizens of 
individual human freedom. And none ever will because it is a point 
of faith with Islam, as it is with every mind-control cult, that 
individual freedom (of conscience, and that freedom which permits 
individuals availing themselves of every sort of information and 
making their own minds on the facts) is the death of Islam, as it 
is the death of every mind-control cult. And they might just be 
right: The only "good" Muslim is the Muslim who is either ignorant 
of his religion or who has managed to ally himself with military 
dictatorships that ruthlessly oppress the mullahs' eternal claim 
to absolute power (a claim supported by the Koran, and therefore 
by all pious Muslims in whatever shape/form "democracy"): Remember 
that Muhammad was not principally the general of his army or prime 
minister of his government but its religious leader, therefore true 
Islamic "republics" demand a mullah in actual supreme command. The 
alternative can only be a "military usurpation" (and not the sort 
of "true democracy" where it is the people who "judge" their leaders 
with any degree of finality instead of the leaders passing usually
quite fatal judgments on their peoples).

> All extreme groups manage to find passages 
> within their holy books that they
> claim legitimises their cause.

That may be partly true, perhaps even a statement of the 
obvious. But there are evils in this world which must be 
condemned EVEN when there are greater evils elsewhere in 
the world. So yours is a comment which you should have 
perhaps reserved for some context outside this particular 
discussion... because, as I suggested before, even though 
I do not know you, your including it in your reply here 
leaves the unsavory impression that, were we to have been 
discussing the evils of Nazi literature, you might very 
well have tossed in the comment that it's not just the Nazis 
that do evil in the world (so Nazi literature need not alarm 
anybody)... the implication being that it is somehow unfair 
to condemn the peculiar evilo of Nazism because "everybody 
does evil in this world." While, as I said, the truth is that 
in this world there are evils which men of good will ought to 
take the time to condemn--even when there may be greater evils
everywhere else whose condemnation ought not to be put off.

If you know a little of the Islamic war against humanity 
throughout history, then you know that it stands as a unique, 
unparalleled case of evil in this world (which not even 
the Nazi holocaust can match). That my concern here & now.

The practice of excusing individual evils by immediately 
diluting them amongst the "undeniably many" evils of this
evil-filled world... is a self-defeating practice which, 
intentionally or not, must eventually raze aall our "values 
judgments" by systematically canceling out each and every 
one of them against the rest until there remains nothing 
but the superstition that there is nothing worthwhile in 
life (and nothing in it worth fighting for). And then but
read Will Durant's brief account of how adoption of that 
philosophy lay the Hindus of India open to the murderous 
hordes of Islamic thieves who DID feel that India had MANY 
things indeed well worth even the monstrously grotesque 
slaughter of millions/millions of her innocent inhabitants.

Let this lesson of history never be easily lost on you... 
that just as those who do not know there are good persons 
in this world will refrain from encouraging and rewarding 
them, those who do not know there are evil persons in this
world will -certainly- become their victims: And that the 
terrible fate of the Hindu victims of Islam who grew to 
believe that values were of little importance... is the fate 
that awaits all those who start to take their values to be 
a luxury:

The same identical religious prejudices and educational texts 
which produced bin Laden and all those Saudi suicide hijackers
are the same exact religious prejudices and educational texts 
which produced the historical infidel-hating hordes of Muslim 
mass-murders throughout the sorry 1,400-years history of the 
Islamic "religion" ... for they have not changed one iota from 
their brutal beginnings to this day. The only thing that has 
changed is that the peoples around them have progressed 1,400 
years, and are no longer as easily victimized as they once were.

Islam can never hope to conquer a world which is and ever will 
be more and more advanced, but it can still produce individual 
Muslims who are brain-washed by its primitive/savage traditions 
into believing that it's well worth dying... to kill a number 
of infidels or to "strike a blow" against any whatever symbol 
of the human progress that is forever leaving them behind. Is
there any doubt in anybody's mind that bin Laden would have
refrained from using nuclear weapons in his utterly pointless
and purposeless sneak attacks if he would have had them? Well: 
That is the complete and utter lack of scruples/humanity and
justification we are facing in these "talibans" of Islam today
... and it is the identical meaningless/purposeless murder-for-
the-sheer-pleasure-of-murdering faced by most of the victims of 
Islamic attacks for the past 1,400 years. ["Islam believes in 
one God (their God) but two humanities: the believers and the
infidels.  Islam teaches, at least according to its most pious 
and learned men, Jihad or holy war against the infidels.  It 
is not that the infidels have done any harm to Islam or Muslims 
but it is simply because holy war against the infidels "is 
established as a divine ordinance, by the word of God..."]

Do Palestinians or any other Arabs have any "just cause" against 
Israel? They don't have a leg to stand on: They originated a war 
of openly avowed genocide in 1948 and lost, so their very lives 
are forfeited to the Jewish State... and to this day that region's
vanquished Arabs should consider themselves blessed that Israel 
permitted them to escape back to their countries with their lives. 

It's still amazing to me just how magnanimous Israel has been in 
victory (for such a victorious army might have quite justifiably 
demanded substantial parts of the lands of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi 
Arabia, Syria, et al, in compensation for their inhuman attack). 

And now, who really believes the Arabs would have been anything but 
the most unimaginably horrific of brutes had they won?!?!? Or that 
the world would have lifted a finger to stop them, for that matter?

> ... this applies almost equally to all faiths 
> across the world. I can find
> passages in the bible that legitimise 
> everything from murder to abortion to
> hatred of gays to racism and all sorts of other things.

And I can assure you that I shall never hesitate to denounce 
any and all such usages of religious texts... with the same 
conviction with which I say to you that the use by Muslims of 
the religious exhortations to murder and genocide in the Koran 
is & ever has been a threat to the humanity of this world.

Just... don't ask me to go along with those who would flatter
Muslims in order to get "small favors" from them, like those mere
"politicos." And, just... don't ask me to go along with those 
who would have us believe that if we but pretend "everything is 
beautiful" it will be so (and not even if it's to spare anybody's 
kind feelings or embarrassment), becase, as far as I'm concerned: 
Let the whole world be embarrassed if there's a damn good reason 
it should be brought to embarrassment.

> For most believers, a faith is about 
> basic principles of living, not about
> strict adherence to texts that, although 
> they may be divinely inspired, are
> certainly written and edited by mankind 
> and therefore open not only to
> interpretation, but also error.

So say you. But most religious persons will say the exact 
opposite. And, unfortunately, while humanist traditions have 
a foothold in the Western World, almost completely throughout
the entire Islamic world it is still a capital offense to 
suggest that Darwin was anything other than an agent of Satan.

> The Taliban and Al Qaida are two groups 
> that use religious texts to
> legitimise actions that are otherwise 
> abhorrent to others of the same faith.

So you claim. However, most polls throughout the entire 
Muslim world consistently show that, from among world 
personalities, bin Laden almost always comes out as their 
single most popular person.

> Opinion;
> My own opinion is that we shouldn't put 
> any credence in these references,
> and should say so publicly. In this way, 
> the beliefs on which Al Qaida are
> acting are undermined by the main stream 
> of Islam and gives them less
> legitimacy.

That is the stick-your-head-in-the-sand-and-hope-
it-all-blows-away attitude: It has never worked, 
and it will never work. What does work and has always 
worked is opening up your eyes... and confronting the 
truth, however much that blowin' sand stings yer eyes.

And sometimes the most beautiful sight in the world
is when you're able to catch a glimpse of the guy who's 
sneaking behind you with the ugliest of intentions... 
in time.

S D Rodrian
poems.sdrodrian.com
physics.sdrodrian.com

> Pole

re:

> "SDR" <sdrodrian@sdrodrian.com> wrote in message
> news:58087ec7.0111250920.5822a3dd@posting.google.com...
>> kotya wright <dechs@rampmaster.com> wrote in message
>> news:<CFZL7.1109$xB4.75424@brie.direct.ca>...
>>
>>> America must be a
>>> strange place indeed to ...
>>> settle their problems in ???Afganistan.
>>
>> You have been misinformed: On September 11 America was
>> handed an invitation (which it could not refuse) to go to war
>> in Afghanistan by Afghanistan's ruling people, the Taliban
>> (through their proxies, the terrorist al-Qaida mafia).
>>
>> Why such terrorists thought nothing of extending America such
>> an invitation is no doubt in part due to the unwillingness of
>> former US leaders from Jimmy Carter to Bill Clinton (including
>> Reagan and Bush Sr., despite the Gulf War) to put on a sustained
>> demonstration of the true military power of the United States...
>> thereby encouraging in Muslim militants the belief that America
>> was only a "paper tiger" unwilling to respond in kind to whatever
>> attacks/outrages America's enemies choose to commit against her.
>> [Or, why do you suppose it is that, after Desert Storm, Saddam
>> Hussein, with lots more motive and tons more means than bin Laden
>> to do America a mischief... refrained from doing so?]
>>
>> Yet, on the whole, they, those Muslim militants, carried out
>> their attack(s) primarily because Islam, especially in Arab
>> countries, encourages the hatred of and violence against all
>> non-Muslims:
>>
>> It is no doubt hard (especially for Americans, whose public
>> educational system is under a strict ban to refrain from
>> any religious teachings), it is extremely difficult for them
>> to fully appreciate the consequences of, say, a Saudi public
>> educational system which does not merely include religious
>> teachings but is actually dominated by religious teaching...
>> and which brain-washes its "talibans" with the 1,400-years old
>> religious prejudices against non-Muslims in the Koran and
>> that book's exhortations to do unspeakable violence to non-
>> Muslims [--as in, [8.12] "strike off their heads and strike
>> off every fingertip of them," or by teaching Mohammed's duty
>> [in Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366] to "expel the Jews
>> and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula" and to "not leave
>> any but Muslim" there... or [in Sahih Muslim The Book of Faith
>> (Kitab Al-Iman) Book 001, Number 0033] Mohammed's claim that
>> he has been commanded by Allah "to fight against people until"
>> they become Muslims! A "holy" book filled with exhortations to
>> unrestrained violence against all infidels/unbelievers, everywhere
>> demonizing and dehumanizing them: [9.29] "Fight those who do not
>> believe in Allah," sparing Jews and Christian ONLY provided they
>> "pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a
>> state of subjection." What can anyone imagine children who are
>> taught this to be "God's truth" every day of their lives will
>> grow up to believe and practice: [9.123] "O you who believe! fight
>> those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in
>> you hardness" and learning that even getting killed is well worth
>> carrying out such outrages against non-Muslims [4.74]: "Therefore
>> let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life
>> for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then
>> be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty
>> reward." Etc., [9:5] "fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find
>> them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them
>> in every stratagem...!] This is the "holy" textbook of the Muslim
>> educational system in most Muslim countries, especially in the
>> Arab countries. Should there be any mystery why the most cruel
>> and inhuman monsters today are all produced in such countries?
>>
>> And is it so difficult to imagine what sort of "talibans" might
>> be produced in American schools where Christians would be allowed
>> to endlessly repeat and repeat the Biblical contention that it
>> was the Jerusalem Jews who demanded that their Jesus be executed?
>>
>> Today the Associated Press reported "Leading Mideast thinkers"
>> were getting together to formulate a plan to improve the image of
>> Muslims: "CAIRO, Egypt (AP) Dozens of intellectuals from around
>> the Middle East will meet in Cairo next week to discuss ways to
>> counter a "defamation campaign" against Muslims in the West
>> following the Sept. 11 terror attacks. Arab League Secretary-
>> General Amr Moussa said Saturday the two-day meeting aims to
>> produce an action plan to be submitted for Arab League leaders'
>> approval when they meet in Beirut in March." Note that they have
>> no intention of trying to improve themselves, but only of ("trying
>> to hide the Sun behind a finger," or) countering the "defamation
>> campaign" they claim is being aimed at them (by the spotlight
>> which the horrors THEY have inspired and committed in the world
>> has now placed so squarely upon the public educational practices
>> of the Islamic countries).
>>
>> They might start by finally committing themselves to teaching
>> their children to re-join the brotherhood of human beings instead
>> of, as they are now doing, "educating" them to become mankind's
>> most implacable and unrelenting enemies. Just don't hold your
>> breath: Islam is the most successful, powerful and insidiously
>> enslaving mind-control cult humanity has ever produced. It is so
>> monstrously brain-washing that among its purest practitioners...
>> Islam even bans music because music might produce a momentary
>> distraction in the mind of the cult member during which the music
>> listener might "suspend" running the brain-washing Islamic program!
>> [There are not that very many brain-washing programs anywhere in
>> the world which take it to THAT extreme, frankly. So it is not
>> that strange that the Islamic world remains pretty stuck some 1,400
>> years in the past... and quite likely to remain stuck there for
>> many years to come even as human civilization continues on its
>> journey of never-ending progress everywhere else in the world.]
>>
>>> I read today that Arab's in America 
>>> were actually being targeted because
>>> they speak the same language as the terrorist pilots --
>>
>> Yes, it's hard to see why they don't also target, say, Canadians:
>>
>> And yet, one of these days there will arise a Canadian terrorist
(who
>> being neither Arab nor Muslim) will yet use Islam as his reason for
>> doing evil in the world. And when that day comes... remain assured
>> that it shall undoubtedly become a lot more difficult for the FBI
>> and other law-enforcement entities to look for Islamic terrorists
>> just only among Muslims and Arabs.
>>
>> S D Rodrian
>> poems.sdrodrian.com
>> physics.sdrodrian.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> kotya wright
>>> www.3blindmind.net