🚀 go-pugleaf

You ARE a hateful little cuss, aren't you?

Islam is a VERY violently evangelical religion... it's only true counterpart
in this respect is Christianity.  Alternately, both religions have found
interpretations in their scriptures that give them the "right" to slaughter
and make war in the name of their faith.  In the case of Christianity, this
is a stretch because most of the talk of war is either about ancient events,
or the Second Comming...  and in the case of Islam, it's about the formation
and defense of a core to start the religion off, but once there was a
foothold muslims were told to propagate their faith with "a jihad of the
pen, not the sword".

Religions are religions... some people WILL abuse their own beliefs for
their own ends, but at heart no major religion is based on violence or
bloodletting.

As for what you said about most Islamic preachers/leaders/etc preaching
violence and hate being the norm... I want to know where you get this info.
Surely you don't rely on usenet - the same place that gave the impression to
the world that all Americans are bloodthirsty monsters who seriously
advocated general nuclear attacks against civilians in many countries simply
to get a few people... that we're a people who scream for war every time we
don't get our way.  EVERYTHING I've seen, heard, or read either personally
or from reliable sources goes against what you say.

What you're doing is not much different from basing your entire view on
Christianity from listening to Jimmy Swaggart railing against everything.

I've been to mosques before (hell, I've been to just about everything over
the last decade), and have heard pretty much the same things I've heard in
most churches.

The world is not all warm and fuzzy, and muslims are just as chaotically
human as everyone else... but you go too far in demonizing a group that you
don't seem to know much about, except through their history books.  I don't
judge every German I meet based on the nazi's... it doesn't make sense to do
the same for anyone else.  And if you do... be prepared for them to judge
you as well (and believe me, I don't think most Americans WANT to be judged
by our mistakes in the past - we've been of the worst genocidals ever -
namingly, Native Americans and their slaughter, warlike and peaceful alike).

--
"S D Rodrian" <sdr@sdrodrian.com> wrote in message
news:bf7b874e.0111280657.4186d554@posting.google.com...
> "PoleyDee" <paul@nospam.sox.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<QNoM7.16459$zh6.1781401@news1.cableinet.net>...
>
> > Point of information.
>
> I smell the blunt instrument of Propaganda (or of Ignorance).
>
> > The faith of Islam does not encourage the hatred of non muslims.
>
> So say you. However, almost without exception the "preachers"
> in most mosques throughout the Islamic world say differently:
> [This is so overwhelmingly the universal practice with them that
> several news items have told of Islamic preachers who, failing
> to spew out hatred and advocacy of violence against non-Muslims,
> are spending most of their time on the defensive against charges
> that they have been "bought" by the infidels.] This is no doubt
> an overstatement, but the perception is quite startling: It is
> as unimaginable that Christian preachers would advocate hatred of
> non-Christians from their church pulpits... as it is that Muslim
> preachers would advocate friendship with non-Muslims from theirs
> (unless it is at some special occasion attended by non-Muslim
> dignitaries or we're talking about a mosque in Europe or the U.S.).
>
> Most importantly: the Koran says differently, exactly as I quoted.
>
> It would be nice indeed if, as persons who are as misinformed
> (or as purposefully lying?) as you [obviously I cannot make an
> informed judgment about someone I don't know] say, that "Islam"
> means "Peace" or some such when it does not, for it translates
> as "Submit!" as in: "Submit or die." What in the world would
> anybody expect from a militantly proselytizing religion that
> styles itself: "Submit" ...?!?!
>
> Every aspect of Islam reflects its militant nature and history.
> Here are a few quotes from easily assessable texts in Usenet
> (make sure you unclude the complete URL in your browser's search):
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BBFE174.A653EC77%40aol.com&output=gpla
in
>
> If not the most authoritative, at least the most renowned
> historian of the 20th Century, Will Durant's essay on "The
> Moslem Conquest" (page 459 of the "Our Oriental Heritage"
> volume in his massive "Story of Civilization) should suffice
> to hint at the scale of the human catastrophe that Islam has
> been to Planet Earth. --Other Usenet quotes of interest here:
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8hkg1u%245k7%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&outpu
t=gplain
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8v7nb8%24nas%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&outpu
t=gplain
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=932877830.1804%40www.remarq.com&output=
gplain
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=933668917.13366%40www.remarq.com&output
=gplain
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Bharat-2232.990903%40news.mantra.com&ou
tput=gplain
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5785c0f4.0110022140.7a478f61%40posting.
google.com&output=gplain
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d0197aa3.0110031244.54eb5d50%40posting.
google.com&output=gplain
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8ljfag%244um%241%40gnamma.connect.com.a
u&output=gplain
>
>
> There are no questions about the insistence of ALL Muslims
> that infidels are not welcomed in the Mulism holy places. None.
> This is NEVER a sign of anybody with any but the least friendly
> of intentions towards strangers. Indeed, this is the most typical
> sign of paranoia, and the universal hallmark of those secretive
> cults which do not wish to let the world in on its true sinister
> intents and inner-working. And, sure enough... the Koran itself
> specifically warns against allowing non-Muslims to get hold of
> its text (for non-Muslims, would no doubt "misinterpret" its
> calls for genocide against them).
>
> If the Saudis suffer the presence of Americans in their country
> it is only because they fear they would be murdered my Saddam
> Hussein were they not there. But their religion demands freedom
> from the "pollution" that the presence of non-Muslims, demonized
> and dehumanized in Islam, in the Arabian peninsula represent
> --And this means that Muslims will NEVER accept Israel's presence
> there... never, regardless of anything they might swear to the
> contrary, since the Koran explicitly grants Muslims leave to lie
> as much as they wish to non-Muslims in order to "set them up"
> for a subsequent stab in the back... which it also explicitly
> advocates doing! Now THAT's a holy book with no namby-pamby
> apologies for ya.
>
> The entire 1,400 year history of Islam is one of unrelenting war
> and genocide against non-Muslims, even from the time of Mohammed,
> whose "humanity" is proclaimed by Muslims because he gave his
> victims the "choice" of conversion to his cult or suffer the usual
> massacre! This is so much so the case that non-Muslim historians
> tell the sorry tale (and Muslim historians like to boast) of
> Islam's betrayals and genocides (amounting to some 60 million
> victims so far, and continuing even unto this day ... from the
> genocide against the Armenians by the Turks, to places in Kashmir
> today where entire non-Muslim tribes have been reduced to mere
> handfuls of survivors): Making not only the German Nazi genocide
> of the 20th Century but all the instances of genocide by all the
> barbarians in human history--all of them--pale in comparison!
>
> > What you have done is quote passages
> > from Islamic Holy Books that seem to
> > prove that Islam itself is a non-tolerant
> > faith that aims to become the
> > exclusive faith on earth.
>
> If we were talking in vacuo about sheer abstractions it would be
> one thing, but the Koran is married to a historical context from
> which no shade of rose-colored glasses can divorce it. It is as if
> you proposed that Nazi literature could be taken to be completely
> innocuous and harmless to everyone: No it can not... and neither
> can the venom and malefaction of the Koran be so easily dismissed
> (except by hypocrites, the uneducated, and politicians looking to
> buy some ill-considered favor from Muslims which must invariably
> cost us all a Hell of a lot more down the line then it's worth).
>
> If there were places in this world, either now or in historical
> times, in which Muslims did not practice to their full horror
> what is so clearly and unequivocally set down for them in their
> Koran... there would be SOME justification to contend that the
> Koran's holy commands were merely "words nobody really paid any
> attention to." But the very sad fact is that, unlike the other
> religions of earth, the enslavement of Islam over its adherents
> is so complete that everywhere Islam has taken hold, there human
> civilization has become frozen in time (incapable on its own of
> again freeing itself from Islam's merciless subjugation--present
> day Iran being a classic example... where regardless of how much
> democracy is let loose there: there will never come a time when
> it is the people who really command their own destiny instead of
> the Islamic preachers). With only momentary respites occasioned
> mostly by military conquests over the liberated regions at the
> hands of non-Muslims (as with European colonial occupations which
> left behind native military establishments with enough of a taste
> for freedom from the Mullahs to determine to do everything in
> their power to prevent the usual conservative Islamic traditions
> from reclaiming their ancient power, as they did in Iran).
>
> And there's no need for Koran verification of Muslim practices:
> Suffice it that NO country on earth where Muslims are a majority
> have a secular democratic government which not only permits but
> encourages the full pursuit and expression by its citizens of
> individual human freedom. And none ever will because it is a point
> of faith with Islam, as it is with every mind-control cult, that
> individual freedom (of conscience, and that freedom which permits
> individuals availing themselves of every sort of information and
> making their own minds on the facts) is the death of Islam, as it
> is the death of every mind-control cult. And they might just be
> right: The only "good" Muslim is the Muslim who is either ignorant
> of his religion or who has managed to ally himself with military
> dictatorships that ruthlessly oppress the mullahs' eternal claim
> to absolute power (a claim supported by the Koran, and therefore
> by all pious Muslims in whatever shape/form "democracy"): Remember
> that Muhammad was not principally the general of his army or prime
> minister of his government but its religious leader, therefore true
> Islamic "republics" demand a mullah in actual supreme command. The
> alternative can only be a "military usurpation" (and not the sort
> of "true democracy" where it is the people who "judge" their leaders
> with any degree of finality instead of the leaders passing usually
> quite fatal judgments on their peoples).
>
> > All extreme groups manage to find passages
> > within their holy books that they
> > claim legitimises their cause.
>
> That may be partly true, perhaps even a statement of the
> obvious. But there are evils in this world which must be
> condemned EVEN when there are greater evils elsewhere in
> the world. So yours is a comment which you should have
> perhaps reserved for some context outside this particular
> discussion... because, as I suggested before, even though
> I do not know you, your including it in your reply here
> leaves the unsavory impression that, were we to have been
> discussing the evils of Nazi literature, you might very
> well have tossed in the comment that it's not just the Nazis
> that do evil in the world (so Nazi literature need not alarm
> anybody)... the implication being that it is somehow unfair
> to condemn the peculiar evilo of Nazism because "everybody
> does evil in this world." While, as I said, the truth is that
> in this world there are evils which men of good will ought to
> take the time to condemn--even when there may be greater evils
> everywhere else whose condemnation ought not to be put off.
>
> If you know a little of the Islamic war against humanity
> throughout history, then you know that it stands as a unique,
> unparalleled case of evil in this world (which not even
> the Nazi holocaust can match). That my concern here & now.
>
> The practice of excusing individual evils by immediately
> diluting them amongst the "undeniably many" evils of this
> evil-filled world... is a self-defeating practice which,
> intentionally or not, must eventually raze aall our "values
> judgments" by systematically canceling out each and every
> one of them against the rest until there remains nothing
> but the superstition that there is nothing worthwhile in
> life (and nothing in it worth fighting for). And then but
> read Will Durant's brief account of how adoption of that
> philosophy lay the Hindus of India open to the murderous
> hordes of Islamic thieves who DID feel that India had MANY
> things indeed well worth even the monstrously grotesque
> slaughter of millions/millions of her innocent inhabitants.
>
> Let this lesson of history never be easily lost on you...
> that just as those who do not know there are good persons
> in this world will refrain from encouraging and rewarding
> them, those who do not know there are evil persons in this
> world will -certainly- become their victims: And that the
> terrible fate of the Hindu victims of Islam who grew to
> believe that values were of little importance... is the fate
> that awaits all those who start to take their values to be
> a luxury:
>
> The same identical religious prejudices and educational texts
> which produced bin Laden and all those Saudi suicide hijackers
> are the same exact religious prejudices and educational texts
> which produced the historical infidel-hating hordes of Muslim
> mass-murders throughout the sorry 1,400-years history of the
> Islamic "religion" ... for they have not changed one iota from
> their brutal beginnings to this day. The only thing that has
> changed is that the peoples around them have progressed 1,400
> years, and are no longer as easily victimized as they once were.
>
> Islam can never hope to conquer a world which is and ever will
> be more and more advanced, but it can still produce individual
> Muslims who are brain-washed by its primitive/savage traditions
> into believing that it's well worth dying... to kill a number
> of infidels or to "strike a blow" against any whatever symbol
> of the human progress that is forever leaving them behind. Is
> there any doubt in anybody's mind that bin Laden would have
> refrained from using nuclear weapons in his utterly pointless
> and purposeless sneak attacks if he would have had them? Well:
> That is the complete and utter lack of scruples/humanity and
> justification we are facing in these "talibans" of Islam today
> ... and it is the identical meaningless/purposeless murder-for-
> the-sheer-pleasure-of-murdering faced by most of the victims of
> Islamic attacks for the past 1,400 years. ["Islam believes in
> one God (their God) but two humanities: the believers and the
> infidels.  Islam teaches, at least according to its most pious
> and learned men, Jihad or holy war against the infidels.  It
> is not that the infidels have done any harm to Islam or Muslims
> but it is simply because holy war against the infidels "is
> established as a divine ordinance, by the word of God..."]
>
> Do Palestinians or any other Arabs have any "just cause" against
> Israel? They don't have a leg to stand on: They originated a war
> of openly avowed genocide in 1948 and lost, so their very lives
> are forfeited to the Jewish State... and to this day that region's
> vanquished Arabs should consider themselves blessed that Israel
> permitted them to escape back to their countries with their lives.
>
> It's still amazing to me just how magnanimous Israel has been in
> victory (for such a victorious army might have quite justifiably
> demanded substantial parts of the lands of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi
> Arabia, Syria, et al, in compensation for their inhuman attack).
>
> And now, who really believes the Arabs would have been anything but
> the most unimaginably horrific of brutes had they won?!?!? Or that
> the world would have lifted a finger to stop them, for that matter?
>
> > ... this applies almost equally to all faiths
> > across the world. I can find
> > passages in the bible that legitimise
> > everything from murder to abortion to
> > hatred of gays to racism and all sorts of other things.
>
> And I can assure you that I shall never hesitate to denounce
> any and all such usages of religious texts... with the same
> conviction with which I say to you that the use by Muslims of
> the religious exhortations to murder and genocide in the Koran
> is & ever has been a threat to the humanity of this world.
>
> Just... don't ask me to go along with those who would flatter
> Muslims in order to get "small favors" from them, like those mere
> "politicos." And, just... don't ask me to go along with those
> who would have us believe that if we but pretend "everything is
> beautiful" it will be so (and not even if it's to spare anybody's
> kind feelings or embarrassment), becase, as far as I'm concerned:
> Let the whole world be embarrassed if there's a damn good reason
> it should be brought to embarrassment.
>
> > For most believers, a faith is about
> > basic principles of living, not about
> > strict adherence to texts that, although
> > they may be divinely inspired, are
> > certainly written and edited by mankind
> > and therefore open not only to
> > interpretation, but also error.
>
> So say you. But most religious persons will say the exact
> opposite. And, unfortunately, while humanist traditions have
> a foothold in the Western World, almost completely throughout
> the entire Islamic world it is still a capital offense to
> suggest that Darwin was anything other than an agent of Satan.
>
> > The Taliban and Al Qaida are two groups
> > that use religious texts to
> > legitimise actions that are otherwise
> > abhorrent to others of the same faith.
>
> So you claim. However, most polls throughout the entire
> Muslim world consistently show that, from among world
> personalities, bin Laden almost always comes out as their
> single most popular person.
>
> > Opinion;
> > My own opinion is that we shouldn't put
> > any credence in these references,
> > and should say so publicly. In this way,
> > the beliefs on which Al Qaida are
> > acting are undermined by the main stream
> > of Islam and gives them less
> > legitimacy.
>
> That is the stick-your-head-in-the-sand-and-hope-
> it-all-blows-away attitude: It has never worked,
> and it will never work. What does work and has always
> worked is opening up your eyes... and confronting the
> truth, however much that blowin' sand stings yer eyes.
>
> And sometimes the most beautiful sight in the world
> is when you're able to catch a glimpse of the guy who's
> sneaking behind you with the ugliest of intentions...
> in time.
>
> S D Rodrian
> poems.sdrodrian.com
> physics.sdrodrian.com
>
> > Pole
>
> re:
>
> > "SDR" <sdrodrian@sdrodrian.com> wrote in message
> > news:58087ec7.0111250920.5822a3dd@posting.google.com...
> >> kotya wright <dechs@rampmaster.com> wrote in message
> >> news:<CFZL7.1109$xB4.75424@brie.direct.ca>...
> >>
> >>> America must be a
> >>> strange place indeed to ...
> >>> settle their problems in ???Afganistan.
> >>
> >> You have been misinformed: On September 11 America was
> >> handed an invitation (which it could not refuse) to go to war
> >> in Afghanistan by Afghanistan's ruling people, the Taliban
> >> (through their proxies, the terrorist al-Qaida mafia).
> >>
> >> Why such terrorists thought nothing of extending America such
> >> an invitation is no doubt in part due to the unwillingness of
> >> former US leaders from Jimmy Carter to Bill Clinton (including
> >> Reagan and Bush Sr., despite the Gulf War) to put on a sustained
> >> demonstration of the true military power of the United States...
> >> thereby encouraging in Muslim militants the belief that America
> >> was only a "paper tiger" unwilling to respond in kind to whatever
> >> attacks/outrages America's enemies choose to commit against her.
> >> [Or, why do you suppose it is that, after Desert Storm, Saddam
> >> Hussein, with lots more motive and tons more means than bin Laden
> >> to do America a mischief... refrained from doing so?]
> >>
> >> Yet, on the whole, they, those Muslim militants, carried out
> >> their attack(s) primarily because Islam, especially in Arab
> >> countries, encourages the hatred of and violence against all
> >> non-Muslims:
> >>
> >> It is no doubt hard (especially for Americans, whose public
> >> educational system is under a strict ban to refrain from
> >> any religious teachings), it is extremely difficult for them
> >> to fully appreciate the consequences of, say, a Saudi public
> >> educational system which does not merely include religious
> >> teachings but is actually dominated by religious teaching...
> >> and which brain-washes its "talibans" with the 1,400-years old
> >> religious prejudices against non-Muslims in the Koran and
> >> that book's exhortations to do unspeakable violence to non-
> >> Muslims [--as in, [8.12] "strike off their heads and strike
> >> off every fingertip of them," or by teaching Mohammed's duty
> >> [in Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4366] to "expel the Jews
> >> and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula" and to "not leave
> >> any but Muslim" there... or [in Sahih Muslim The Book of Faith
> >> (Kitab Al-Iman) Book 001, Number 0033] Mohammed's claim that
> >> he has been commanded by Allah "to fight against people until"
> >> they become Muslims! A "holy" book filled with exhortations to
> >> unrestrained violence against all infidels/unbelievers, everywhere
> >> demonizing and dehumanizing them: [9.29] "Fight those who do not
> >> believe in Allah," sparing Jews and Christian ONLY provided they
> >> "pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a
> >> state of subjection." What can anyone imagine children who are
> >> taught this to be "God's truth" every day of their lives will
> >> grow up to believe and practice: [9.123] "O you who believe! fight
> >> those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in
> >> you hardness" and learning that even getting killed is well worth
> >> carrying out such outrages against non-Muslims [4.74]: "Therefore
> >> let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life
> >> for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then
> >> be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty
> >> reward." Etc., [9:5] "fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find
> >> them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them
> >> in every stratagem...!] This is the "holy" textbook of the Muslim
> >> educational system in most Muslim countries, especially in the
> >> Arab countries. Should there be any mystery why the most cruel
> >> and inhuman monsters today are all produced in such countries?
> >>
> >> And is it so difficult to imagine what sort of "talibans" might
> >> be produced in American schools where Christians would be allowed
> >> to endlessly repeat and repeat the Biblical contention that it
> >> was the Jerusalem Jews who demanded that their Jesus be executed?
> >>
> >> Today the Associated Press reported "Leading Mideast thinkers"
> >> were getting together to formulate a plan to improve the image of
> >> Muslims: "CAIRO, Egypt (AP) Dozens of intellectuals from around
> >> the Middle East will meet in Cairo next week to discuss ways to
> >> counter a "defamation campaign" against Muslims in the West
> >> following the Sept. 11 terror attacks. Arab League Secretary-
> >> General Amr Moussa said Saturday the two-day meeting aims to
> >> produce an action plan to be submitted for Arab League leaders'
> >> approval when they meet in Beirut in March." Note that they have
> >> no intention of trying to improve themselves, but only of ("trying
> >> to hide the Sun behind a finger," or) countering the "defamation
> >> campaign" they claim is being aimed at them (by the spotlight
> >> which the horrors THEY have inspired and committed in the world
> >> has now placed so squarely upon the public educational practices
> >> of the Islamic countries).
> >>
> >> They might start by finally committing themselves to teaching
> >> their children to re-join the brotherhood of human beings instead
> >> of, as they are now doing, "educating" them to become mankind's
> >> most implacable and unrelenting enemies. Just don't hold your
> >> breath: Islam is the most successful, powerful and insidiously
> >> enslaving mind-control cult humanity has ever produced. It is so
> >> monstrously brain-washing that among its purest practitioners...
> >> Islam even bans music because music might produce a momentary
> >> distraction in the mind of the cult member during which the music
> >> listener might "suspend" running the brain-washing Islamic program!
> >> [There are not that very many brain-washing programs anywhere in
> >> the world which take it to THAT extreme, frankly. So it is not
> >> that strange that the Islamic world remains pretty stuck some 1,400
> >> years in the past... and quite likely to remain stuck there for
> >> many years to come even as human civilization continues on its
> >> journey of never-ending progress everywhere else in the world.]
> >>
> >>> I read today that Arab's in America
> >>> were actually being targeted because
> >>> they speak the same language as the terrorist pilots --
> >>
> >> Yes, it's hard to see why they don't also target, say, Canadians:
> >>
> >> And yet, one of these days there will arise a Canadian terrorist
> (who
> >> being neither Arab nor Muslim) will yet use Islam as his reason for
> >> doing evil in the world. And when that day comes... remain assured
> >> that it shall undoubtedly become a lot more difficult for the FBI
> >> and other law-enforcement entities to look for Islamic terrorists
> >> just only among Muslims and Arabs.
> >>
> >> S D Rodrian
> >> poems.sdrodrian.com
> >> physics.sdrodrian.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> kotya wright
> >>> www.3blindmind.net