🚀 go-pugleaf

Marybeth Fisher (fisher@math.duke.edu) wrote:

: as opposed to being free to roam at will after his parents posted his
: bond of $175,000 as is usual with other criminals? house arrest is
: certainly an additional serious restriction on his movements.

No Marybeth...as opposed to a bond that would be too high to get him
out of jail...I am sure his parent don't have the infinite supply of
money you seem to think the conservative population of this country
has.
 
: i can only assume that you're too lazy or stupid to read a front page
: article on the case rather than just glancing at the headline and
: spouting your usual "it must be a liberal conspiracy" drivel.

Leave it to you to start with personal attacks when none where directed
at you...you live up to the stereotype of the typical duke student:

book smart, no common sense.

I have the article appearing today in the Durham Herald Sun...I don't
spend my time bowing to the Independant and the Spectator rags.
 
: the probable cause hearing is in october and the district attorney 
: requested the house arrest himself - in order to protect the victims,
: based on his knowledge of statements made by the accused regarding the
: victims which the district attorney chose not to reveal to the press.

Probable cause has NOTHING to do with the amount of a bond...if a 
person is charged with an offense, bond is set based on the totality
of the circumstances involved in the offense. Since he was ID'd by the
rape victim, hours after the offense occured...you set the bond high
enough to the alleged perpetrator CAN'T get out of jail.

Given your limited real-world knowledge, you might be better off limiting
your postings to your college major (mathematics).
 
: dont know what the going bond rate is for kidnapping and rape. anyone?

Again Marybeth - no common sense.

You speak like what you probably will turn out to be - a permanent student.
In school until you are in your late fortys who will go on to mooch off
of the federal government with an everlasting supply of grant money.
 
Maybe we shouldn'd have bonds for everyone, maybe we should just let
anyone who commits a crime and just forget about jails...

: and what paper exactly are you reading?

See above.

Oh yeah, maybe I should read the NANDO for true UNBIASED reporting...
I didn't bring political views into this, I crossposted to triangle.
politics hoping that you WOULDN'T read triangle.general and hoping
you didn't read triangle.politics.
 
: -mary beth

Airhead...


--
Dave Briggman

******************************************************************************
Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of 
Congress. But I repeat myself.

	Mark Twain: Manuscript note, c.1882.

fisher@math.duke.edu (Marybeth Fisher) wrote:



>dont know what the going bond rate is for kidnapping and rape. anyone?

Regular ole black kid...  about $250,000

Well connected white kid...  about $0

>>... I have not heard or read any articles 
>>pertaining to this incident that mention ANY amount of bond.

>and what paper exactly are you reading?

>>Amazed,

>and how. 

>-mary beth

gronke@acpub.duke.edu (Paul Gronke) wrote:
>In article <43q5ge$ic0@redstone.interpath.net>,
>   paradigm@mercury.interpath.net (David Briggman) wrote:

>Let's see: the guy has no record, he has a steady job, and, yes, his 
>parents are stable members of the community.  How high could the 
>bail have gone to make it unpayable?  1,000,000?  10,000,000?  Thos 
>kinds of bails are almost never set, are they?  Certainly not in a 
>first offense case.

Believe it or not Paul, people who have no prior criminal records commit 
violent crimes like this hairball is accused of doing...A prior criminal 
record is taken into account during sentencing (as is his job and his 
parents)...which is why courts run PSIs (pre-sentencing investigations) 
prior to their sentencing if they are found convicted. Obviously you 
have become affixed with the "Gothic Wonderland" and the magic border 
you and others believe that Duke possesses. I could name countless 
numbers of people who committed violent acts with no prior criminal 
record and were not given the privilege of house arrest prior to his 
court hearing (Timothy McVeay, Colin Ferguson, Blanch Taylor-Moore, 
anybody involved in the Little Rascals case [all of them were no-bail 
holds], the law school student who shot up Chapel Hill)...there goes 
your argument about high/no bails on first offenses.

>Dave, the story in the Herald Sun, which you claim you read, says 
>quite clearly that the District Attorney *requested* house arrest as 
>a greater restriction on his movements.

Wednesday's Herald Sun article made no mention of that...and how does 
one assume that being on house arrest is MORE restrictive than being in 
a cell with guards?

The only thing the bracelet does on this guy will alert the Sheriff';s 
Department that he's left the confines of his house...it doesn't shock 
him and it doesn't provide for tracking him so once he's gone, he's 
gone.

>>book smart, no common sense.
>
>Dave, weren't you the person who told us not to stereotype schools a 
>few weeks ago when someone made a disparaging comment about GMU?  Go 
>look this word up in the dictionary: "hypocrite"

Actually, Paul, if you'll go back and read the posting, what I said was 
that most state colleges and universities (both in Virginia and 
nationwide) could provide a better undergraduate and graduate education 
in most any field of endeavor (with the possible exception of the 
Medical School) and that Duke lives off of it's reputation it earned 
quite a while ago (long before any of the current crop of students 
arrived here) and doesn't really live up to today. I also said they live 
off of their alumni and that there are better educational values to be 
had, I should know, I paid for the law school tuition of my girlfriend, 
who attended and graduated Duke Law.

Lord knows that for the money, most state colleges provide more 
education and knowledge for the dollar.

One of the departments I am contracting for has a fourth year EE who 
doesn't know what formatting a hard drive does and doesn't know what the 
operating system of a computer does for the computer...yet he's going to 
be designing microchips - makes sense huh? Most ten year olds know what 
that does - my daughter knew when she was five - as do most children 
nowadays.

>Uh, isn't probable cause part of "the totality of the 
>circumstances."  Am I missing something?  Just a dumb Dukie, ya 
>know.

You said it, not me...probable cause is determined by the totality of 
the circumstances in the alleged criminal offense...what you have is a 
19-year old white male with a gun who kidnapped three people and raped 
one of them after giving her the option of rape or being shot (gee Paul, 
which would you choose)...it has NOTHING to do with whether the alleged 
perpetrator has committed a crime before or the fact that his parents 
are both physicians or that he works in Duke Medical Center or that he 
is an NC State Student - NOTHING, ZERO, NIL.

It's amazing how none of the liberals have made any reference to my 
opinion that had he been black he'd still be in the Orange County jail 
(a regular term is "pre-trial detention") where the community would be 
guaranteed to be safe from him and he would be guaranteed to show up for 
his trial. No such guarantee exists with him on house arrest.


Dave

Dave Briggman (paradigm@mercury.interpath.net) wrote:
: gronke@acpub.duke.edu (Paul Gronke) wrote:
: >In article <43q5ge$ic0@redstone.interpath.net>,
: >   paradigm@mercury.interpath.net (David Briggman) wrote:

: >Let's see: the guy has no record, he has a steady job, and, yes, his 
: >parents are stable members of the community.  How high could the 
: >bail have gone to make it unpayable?  1,000,000?  10,000,000?  Thos 
: >kinds of bails are almost never set, are they?  Certainly not in a 
: >first offense case.

: I could name countless 
: numbers of people who committed violent acts with no prior criminal 
: record and were not given the privilege of house arrest prior to his 
: court hearing (Timothy McVeay, Colin Ferguson, Blanch Taylor-Moore, 
: anybody involved in the Little Rascals case [all of them were no-bail 
: holds], the law school student who shot up Chapel Hill)...there goes 
: your argument about high/no bails on first offenses.

All of these cases have one thing in common - BIG name recognition.
In TV's case, big flee potential...

: >Dave, the story in the Herald Sun, which you claim you read, says 
: >quite clearly that the District Attorney *requested* house arrest as 
: >a greater restriction on his movements.

: Wednesday's Herald Sun article made no mention of that...and how does 
: one assume that being on house arrest is MORE restrictive than being in 
: a cell with guards?

House arrest is more restrictive than not having house arrest given equal bail.


: >>book smart, no common sense.
: >
: >Dave, weren't you the person who told us not to stereotype schools a 
: >few weeks ago when someone made a disparaging comment about GMU?  Go 
: >look this word up in the dictionary: "hypocrite"

: Actually, Paul, if you'll go back and read the posting, what I said was 
: that most state colleges and universities (both in Virginia and 
: nationwide) could provide a better undergraduate and graduate education 
: in most any field of endeavor (with the possible exception of the 
: Medical School) and that Duke lives off of it's reputation it earned 
: quite a while ago (long before any of the current crop of students 
: arrived here) and doesn't really live up to today. I also said they live 
: off of their alumni and that there are better educational values to be 
: had, I should know, I paid for the law school tuition of my girlfriend, 
: who attended and graduated Duke Law.

You girlfriend is not herewith elected Representative of the Duke Law
School and while her experiences are important, the are not a paradigm.
Duke has only recently earned its reputation in certain fields, and in
another opinion holds up very well in many fields.  While the school does seek 
money from alumni, it does so becuase in terms of its national prominence 
it is young and has no where near the endowments of the other five
schools that make up the top six in the nation.  I also don't
think that "most" state school can provide better undergradute and graduate 
education in "most" any field of endevor.  If you look at *all* the state 
schools you will without question find some that have better programs in
some fields, but your generalization doesn't wash.  Have any stats?

: Lord knows that for the money, most state colleges provide more 
: education and knowledge for the dollar.

The Lord may know it, but without any proof on your part, us mortals 
don't.

: One of the departments I am contracting for has a fourth year EE who 
: doesn't know what formatting a hard drive does and doesn't know what the 
: operating system of a computer does for the computer...yet he's going to 
: be designing microchips - makes sense huh? Most ten year olds know what 
: that does - my daughter knew when she was five - as do most children 
: nowadays.

Who is this person?  He should not be getting his degree.  However - 
does he know how to design a micro-chip?

: It's amazing how none of the liberals have made any reference to my 
: opinion that had he been black he'd still be in the Orange County jail 
: (a regular term is "pre-trial detention") where the community would be 
: guaranteed to be safe from him and he would be guaranteed to show up for 
: his trial. No such guarantee exists with him on house arrest.

Had he been Black I think there would probably be a greater 
chance of his either getting a much larger bond or a no-bond
hold.  Using a Greene-esque line of reasoning, given the 
general economic state African-Americans face here, the bail 
as set may have been sufficiently high...

Which, I suppose, begs the question - should the affluence of the 
accused or his/her family be taken into account when setting 
bail?  If I am accused of some crime and am able in a pinch to 
get a $30,000 bond but another person who is like me in most 
regards except affluence is able to post $100,000 should my bond be 
set lower?

mrg@acpub.duke.edu (Michael R. Gustafson II) wrote:

>House arrest is more restrictive than not having house arrest given >equal bail.

>Had he been Black I think there would probably be a greater 
>chance of his either getting a much larger bond or a no-bond
>hold.  Using a Greene-esque line of reasoning, given the 
>general economic state African-Americans face here, the bail 
>as set may have been sufficiently high...
>
>Which, I suppose, begs the question - should the affluence of the 
>accused or his/her family be taken into account when setting 
>bail?  If I am accused of some crime and am able in a pinch to 
>get a $30,000 bond but another person who is like me in most 
>regards except affluence is able to post $100,000 should my bond be 
>set lower?

Bringing this discussion back into focus, I removed some tangential issues I put in (sorry, I do that sometimes)...

Michael has excellent points and is correct on all of them...

Maybe there needs to be codified standards that are unilaterally applied such that a family's wealth or standing in a community is n=
ot applied to a determination as to whether bail should be granted or in what amount or bail should be set at.

It APPEARS to me the relatively low ($175,000 = either putting one's house up or saying bye-bye to about $26,000 when given to a bai=
lbondman) bail AND the house arrest would not have been afforded a black man who was charged with armed kidnapping/rape/robbery. It =
also APPEARS that this solution regardless of race, etc. is not the solution that is best for the community. That's my point.


Dave

On 21 Sep 1995, Michael R. Gustafson II wrote:

> I've just had it lately with people trying to drag Duke's name through 
> the mud
> without supporting claims having any basis on the total package of the school,
> and also with these four-hudred article bitch and moan sessions between people
> that has NOTHING to do with newsgroups.  Take them outside.

	Look, Mike.  I can't get Ophra or Phill or even Jereraldo on this 
here TV at work, but I *can* get Bergman and Mary Beth.  Please don't 
take my soap operas away.

Jim "no sig" Meyer

Dave Briggman (paradigm@mercury.interpath.net) wrote:

: Maybe there needs to be codified standards that are unilaterally 
: applied such that a family's wealth or standing in a community is 
: not applied to a determination as to whether bail should be granted 
: or in what amount or bail should be set at.

: It APPEARS to me the relatively low ($175,000 = either putting one's 
: house up or saying bye-bye to about $26,000 when given to a
: bailbondman) bail AND the house arrest would not have been afforded a 
: black man who was charged with armed kidnapping/rape/robbery. It 
: also APPEARS that this solution regardless of race, etc. is not the 
: solution that is best for the community. That's my point.


: Dave


Well, a 15 year old charged with 3 counts of robbery with a dangerous
weapon, two counts of first-degree kidnapping (what, by the way, determines
the degree of a kidnapping), one count of first-degree rape, and one count 
of assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill got bail set at
$100,000.  He has a record including armed robbery, possesion of a stolen
vehicle, and possesion of a weapon of mass destruction.  His alleged crime was 
against two Duke students, and he is an African American.  After his case 
came up for trial, his bond was changed to $500,000 (the prosecution
requested $1 million)...

I threw the part about the victims in because even people from the Gothic 
Wonderland are the victims of crime.  Now, in this particular case, I would 
say that the person /should/ have been held without bond due to the 
extremely violent nature of the crime and his previous record.  That opinion 
came well before any mention of race.

I agree with the first paragraph.  In cases such as these (and, really, all 
cases) the relative wealth of the family should not enter into how justice
is done.  Although it may have to...  If a bail is set at $1 million, the 
judicial intent is most likely to hold the person and NOT to make the 
bondsfolk rich.  Some accused may however be able to put up that much 
money, thereby making the bond economically unfair.  If a rich guy and 
a poor guy go in on a crime and one can afford the bail and one cannot, 
where is the justice in that?  There are just too many questions, so I 
suppose we should not be surprised when something like the $8000 bond 
for a murder case comes out.  Angry, confused maybe, but not surprised.

Mike

David Briggman (paradigm@mercury.interpath.net) wrote:


: : i can only assume that you're too lazy or stupid to read a front page
: : article on the case rather than just glancing at the headline and
: : spouting your usual "it must be a liberal conspiracy" drivel.

: Leave it to you to start with personal attacks when none where directed
: at you...you live up to the stereotype of the typical duke student:

: book smart, no common sense.

What the heck is it with people trying to stereotype Duke students all 
the time.  First George Conklin, now David Briggman.  Later you bring up ONE
example of someone in the EE department who is clueless and attempt to 
denigrate the entire department.  Give a rest to the 
sad argument of trying to use someone's school *whatever it is* against 
them. It's childish and not at the level this discussion requires. 


: Given your limited real-world knowledge, you might be better off limiting
: your postings to your college major (mathematics).

Clearly, this is among the more obnoxious things posted...

: : dont know what the going bond rate is for kidnapping and rape. anyone?

: Again Marybeth - no common sense.

It's common sense what the 'going rate' for kidnapping and rape are?  You 
seem to imply that such a thing actually exists.  Each one is set different 
depending on the crime, the nature of the offense, and the accused.

: You speak like what you probably will turn out to be - a permanent student.
: In school until you are in your late fortys who will go on to mooch off
: of the federal government with an everlasting supply of grant money.

Another statement having nothing to do with the discussion at hand.


: Oh yeah, maybe I should read the NANDO for true UNBIASED reporting...
: I didn't bring political views into this, I crossposted to triangle.
: politics hoping that you WOULDN'T read triangle.general and hoping
: you didn't read triangle.politics.
:  
: : -mary beth

: Airhead...

Please take your attacks off the newsgroups and into e-mail if you must.
Regardless of someone else's making personal attacks, retribution should 
not come in the form of a public post except to correct the matter at hand.
I've just had it lately with people trying to drag Duke's name through the mud
without supporting claims having any basis on the total package of the school,
and also with these four-hudred article bitch and moan sessions between people
that has NOTHING to do with newsgroups.  Take them outside.

: Dave Briggman

mrg@acpub.duke.edu (Michael R. Gustafson II) writes:

deleted

>is done.  Although it may have to...  If a bail is set at $1 million, the 
>judicial intent is most likely to hold the person and NOT to make the 
>bondsfolk rich.  Some accused may however be able to put up that much 

I disagree. High bail is meant to give a great disincentive to you fleeing
because mom and dad will LOSE the house they put up if you do, etc. It
may sometimes be used as a de facto excuse to keep you locked up, due
to an inordinate, unpostable bail, but the bail system is intended
as a disincentive for flight, not as a fee to get out of jail in the meantime.

>money, thereby making the bond economically unfair.  If a rich guy and 
>a poor guy go in on a crime and one can afford the bail and one cannot, 
>where is the justice in that?  There are just too many questions, so I 
>suppose we should not be surprised when something like the $8000 bond 
>for a murder case comes out.  Angry, confused maybe, but not surprised.

Something people seem to be missing in this discussion of bail is that
if the bailee skips, the full amount of the bail is due the courts.
This means your parents' house gets foreclosed if you flee, or the 
bailbondsman loses big chunks of cash. This also means that bailbondsmen 
usually have VERY efficient bounty hunters in their employ so they don't 
end up forfeiting their high-dollar bond. Thus, the incentive to not skip 
is that you and/or whomever posted your bail will be out a significant sum, 
or a very nasty bunch of motivated people (who don't have to follow police 
search and seizure and conduct laws) will be coming after your butt.

Cases with high bonds reflect the court's desire to have you show up.
Social standing in the community becomes a factor because people with
lots of immobile assets, and lots of roots in the community (jobs, relatives,
businesses, etc.) have inherently less desire to flee. 
--
Steve Holzworth
sch@unx.sas.com                    "Do not attribute to poor spelling
SAS Institute   x6872               That which is actually poor typing..."
SAS/Macintosh Development Team                            - me
Cary, N.C.

Steve Holzworth (sch@unx.sas.com) wrote:

: I disagree. High bail is meant to give a great disincentive to you fleeing
: because mom and dad will LOSE the house they put up if you do, etc. It
: may sometimes be used as a de facto excuse to keep you locked up, due
: to an inordinate, unpostable bail, but the bail system is intended
: as a disincentive for flight, not as a fee to get out of jail in the meantime.

Let me see if I get this straight...Arguendo, this hairball did what he's
accused of doing. You think anybody who commits this type of offense
cares about whether his parent loses their house? You could argue that
he probably doesn't care about whether his parents would lose their house
because he's already publically humiliated his parents. Again, that is only
for the sake of this discussion...I'll wait until the DNA results come back,
I hardly think anyone is going to accuse a cop of having put his semen
inside the female victim. 

: Cases with high bonds reflect the court's desire to have you show up.

In certain instances it's also demonstrative of the court's intent to
attempt to maintain a safe community.
 
: Social standing in the community becomes a factor because people with
: lots of immobile assets, and lots of roots in the community (jobs, relatives,
: businesses, etc.) have inherently less desire to flee. 

Sorry Steve, I don't agree with you on this point.

BTW, anyone know where this 19 year old got the handgun from?
 
--
Dave Briggman

******************************************************************************
Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of 
Congress. But I repeat myself.

	Mark Twain: Manuscript note, c.1882.

> ..arrest would not have been afforded a black man who was charged 
> with armed kidnapping/rape/robbery. It also APPEARS that this 
> solution regardless of race, etc. is not the solution that is 
> best for the community. That's my point.
 
Actually, Durham was all abuss recently over a young black man 
with a list of crimes quite similar to the above being let off
with an $8000 bond and NO house arrest.  The only reason it came
to light was that the individual was accused of murder on top of
everything else and the judge was chastised (although let off in
the end) for violating proceedures.
 
Let's face it.  Except for capital crimes, bond is used to
assure that the accused will appear for trial.  And dozens
of armed robbers and rapists are out walking around right
now awaiting trial.  Are you really surprised?

In <43rt5b$f5i@news.duke.edu>, Dave Briggman <paradigm@mercury.interpath.net> writes:
>One of the departments I am contracting for has a fourth year EE who 
>doesn't know what formatting a hard drive does and doesn't know what the 
>operating system of a computer does for the computer...yet he's going to 
>be designing microchips - makes sense huh? Most ten year olds know what 
>that does - my daughter knew when she was five - as do most children 
>nowadays.

actually the ability to design microchips does not necessitate much knowledge
of current operating systems. your statement would have been only slightly
more invalid if you chastised this EE for not knowing how to uuencode a
zip file.

as mankind progresses towards more complicated and powerful technology
it becomes increasingly important to specialize; otherwise we impede progress.
certainly at some point in development (project-wise, not time-wise) someone
most manage the meshing of hardware and software, but not every electrical
engineer involved.

aloha
dav coleman

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"i want to go, but i'm hard to start
 and my brakes are bad, so i'm hard to stop" - Morphine

<a href="http://www.cybernetics.net/users/dav/dav.html">dav coleman</a>

In article <43q3ih$21a@news.duke.edu>,
Marybeth Fisher <fisher@math.duke.edu> wrote:
[...]

While you seem to be a great educator advertising newspaper reading,
is it also true that you are willing to be lenient on people of the
rapist's sort?

-- 
                                ***
Department of Computer Science, Duke University, Durham, NC 27708-0129
Internet:	paul@cs.duke.edu
WWW:           <A HREF="http://www.cs.duke.edu/~paul/HomePage.html" </A>

paradigm@mercury.interpath.net (David Briggman) writes:

>Steve Holzworth (sch@unx.sas.com) wrote:

>: I disagree. High bail is meant to give a great disincentive to you fleeing
>: because mom and dad will LOSE the house they put up if you do, etc. It

deleted

>Let me see if I get this straight...Arguendo, this hairball did what he's
>accused of doing. You think anybody who commits this type of offense
>cares about whether his parent loses their house? You could argue that

Yes, exactly. He has no priors. This is (apparently) very out of character
for the defendant (if you believe the interviews with friends and associates).
If he's guilty, and given the above, the incident probably qualifies as
a fit of passion, rage, stupidity (pick several), but he is most likely
not now in the same frame of mind. He very likely does not wish to further
complicate his life, or his parents' lives, by fleeing. Most people still
have a fairly developed sense of responsibility (I hear choking noises around
the Triangle), even if that isn't often apparent.

If he's innocent, the physical evidence in the case will almost certainly
prove his innocence. Thus, he would have no reason to flee. The fact that
he *hasn't* been sprung yet implies that his blood type and minor factors
probably matched the physical evidence, thus requiring the more exacting
and time consuming DNA test.

A counter example would be someone with a history of criminal or violent
behavior.  That would tend to indicate that this person doesn't follow the
norms of behavior, so the personal/familial disincentive of your parents
losing their house, etc., would be less of a factor in the defendant's
decision to flee or not. Bail would be less likely in this case.

>In certain instances it's also demonstrative of the court's intent to
>attempt to maintain a safe community.

Usually not. If the DA can argue successfully that the defendant represents
a serious threat of harm to members of the community, the courts can easily
deny bail. I still argue that the size of the bail is set as disincentive to
flee. I have no comment on the amount of bail set for particular types of
cases or classes of defendant. In this particular case, the DA apparently
argued that the defendant posed *some* threat, although not egregious, thus
the imposition of house arrest as a condition of bail.

> 
>: Social standing in the community becomes a factor because people with
>: lots of immobile assets, and lots of roots in the community (jobs, relatives,
>: businesses, etc.) have inherently less desire to flee. 

>Sorry Steve, I don't agree with you on this point.

Differences of opinion are what make things interesting. Thanks for
keeping it civil.
--
Steve Holzworth
sch@unx.sas.com                    "Do not attribute to poor spelling
SAS Institute   x6872               That which is actually poor typing..."
SAS/Macintosh Development Team                            - me
Cary, N.C.

In article <43tf45$dsv@parsifal.nando.net> dav@nando.net   (dav coleman) writes:
>From: dav@nando.net   (dav coleman)
>Subject: Foolish EE? was: Duke Forest/House Arrest
>Date: 22 Sep 1995 04:47:01 GMT

>In <43rt5b$f5i@news.duke.edu>, Dave Briggman <paradigm@mercury.interpath.net> writes:
>>One of the departments I am contracting for has a fourth year EE who 
>>doesn't know what formatting a hard drive does and doesn't know what the 
>>operating system of a computer does for the computer...yet he's going to 
>>be designing microchips - makes sense huh? Most ten year olds know what 
>>that does - my daughter knew when she was five - as do most children 
>>nowadays.

>actually the ability to design microchips does not necessitate much knowledge
>of current operating systems. your statement would have been only slightly
>more invalid if you chastised this EE for not knowing how to uuencode a
>zip file.

>as mankind progresses towards more complicated and powerful technology
>it becomes increasingly important to specialize; otherwise we impede progress.
>certainly at some point in development (project-wise, not time-wise) someone
>most manage the meshing of hardware and software, but not every electrical
>engineer involved.

>aloha
>dav coleman

>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>"i want to go, but i'm hard to start
> and my brakes are bad, so i'm hard to stop" - Morphine

><a href="http://www.cybernetics.net/users/dav/dav.html">dav coleman</a>

And Einstein did not fully understand algebra, but he could definitely wail in 
physics!
Jon