🚀 go-pugleaf

tomg@bnr.ca (Tom Gargulak) writes:
>> What should be
>> completely crystal clear is that HCI is 100% for a complete and total ban
>> on guns.
>
>Great!  So what's your problem?

    John doesn't need Uncle Sam to be his Nanny, too.

>Part 1 of NRA twists-the-facts BULLSH*T.  Even if one agrees with those
>statistics, how many of the crimes would have occurred if guns where 
>not easily available?

    1. It's not from the NRA. 
    2. Around 645K crimes per year involve guns. Many of these are
       actually paperwork violations, and therefore irrelevent to
       this discussion. With the latest study (by a Florida Criminologist,
       not the NRA) estimating that nearly 2M crimes are prevented through
       the use (rarely actually shooting) of a gun, guns in this culture
       seem to be beneficial.

>> Not only that, but within the 50% of the states with strict carry laws,
>> fully 80% of all murders occur.  Or put another way, you are 4 times
>> more likely to be murdered if you live in a state, such as Texas, which
>> has strict carry laws than if you live in a state without.
>
>This is not only BULLSH*T, it is pure NRA twist-the-facts BULLSH*T.  It

    3. This is not from the NRA. It's from the FBI, DOJ, and the GPO's
    Statistical Almanac.

>just so happens that generally the states with the strict carry laws
>are the same ones with the high-population cities, where the crime-rate 
>is always higher regardless if you are in America, Europe or anywhere else.
>The carry laws reduced crime in already high-crime areas.  Who gives a
>sh*t about passing a carry law if crime is low?

    Floridians obviously cared. Up until 1987 they technically had a carry
    permit system, but only the elite and well-connected could get a permit.
    The 1987 law made it possible for virtually any upstanding citizen to
    get a permit. Since then, Florida's murder rate has dropped 40%. This 
    is in a state which had tracked with the rest of the nation's murder
    rate since the FBI had been keeping score. It should also be noted that
    this is the same time frame when robbing people driving rental cars
    started to become the high-profile crimes. 

>Anyway, why compare USA states where guns are easily obtained?  Why not

    Because they have a lot in common. Far more than with other countries.
    Why not compare the areas bordering Canada with Canada? They're
    virtually identical, in spite of Canada's gun laws. Oops. 

>compare crime rates against other countries where guns are CONTROLLED
>and difficult to obtain?  Like Japan, England and most of Europe.  Then

    England, now there's a good example. THey have very little gun-related
    crime. They also have very, very strict gun laws. Example: to buy a
    single-shot shotgun, you have to apply for permission, including 
    character references from three high-ranking government or church
    officials. However, in the near 100 years since they started escalating
    gun gontrol laws, their violent crime rate has grown TWICE as fast
    as that of the US. Hmm.

>compare crime against countries where guns are easily obtained.  Like
>Mexico, Bosnia and Italy.  Its so obvious that only a gun-fanatic
>cannot understand it.

    Mexico has incredibly harsh gun laws. Have we lifted the arms embargo
    on Bosnia, yet? Oh, that's right, just a few months ago. Do you remember
    why we did that? Yep, so the "good guys" over there could get the guns
    they need to defend themselves from the lawless predators. Did you know
    that the US is exporting 10's of thousands of shotguns to Russia for 
    the same reason? Probably not, since the Clintonists are doing
    everything they can to keep it low profile, and the only place to 
    learn of it is within the industry, something hoplophobes know
    nothing at all about.. 

    I'd like point out something that's a little too subtle for most
    slobbering gun banners. Having two conditions, doesn't mean that 
    either condition causes the other.

    I drive a Honda. I also wear glasses. Does this mean that driving
    that specific car is why I wear glasses? Does it mean that I drive
    a Honda because I couldn't see another dealership? No, there's no
    cause-effect relationship at all.

    England's low crime (relative to ours) rate pre-dates their gun
    controls, as does Canada's. Now our violent crime rate is actually
    on the decrease (except for those committed by people who already can't
    legally buy guns) and english bobbies are arming themselves. 

    Didn't you once tell the nice folks at Convex how safe you felt walking
    the streets of Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia? Still think they're
    safe places to hang out? 

>You gun-fanatics.  Why not just give everyone a gun?  Kids, adults,

    Because we're not statist self-proclaimed-"liberals". We believe
    that everyone has the right to choose how to take care of themselves.
    Likewise, we believe that you have the right to completely rely on
    the government for your protection. That the government has no
    obligation whatsoever to provide it is beside the point.

>everyone.  NRA nuts always claim that it is impossible to keep guns
>out of the hands of criminals.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we always use the "War-On-Drugs" model, too.

>What would happen if every idiot
>had a gun?  

    Didn't you have access to a gun when you were in the military?
    Did you kill yourself with it?

    I figure if someone with as little understanding of guns as yourself
    can get by, those of us who have taken the time to study up on the
    subject and practice with them should have very little trouble.

>On the other hand, what if guns where heavily taxed and controlled?

     Then people who follow the laws would be heavily taxed and regulated.
     Unfortunately, this is the same groups of people who don't murder,
     and don't rape, and don't kill IRS agents who come to take thier
     money away. This is a seperate set from those who can't legally buy
     guns, yet somehow manage to commit more and more crimes every year.

     It's rather obvious hoplophobes completely fail to understand the
     rather simple concept of aiming at the target you intend to hit,
     without killing everything else in the area.

-- 
    Kevin Langston   
    langston@frontier.lonestar.org