🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <dberkes-3012971953290001@192.168.1.30>,
Dan Berkes-Lemos <dberkes@marvin.webcom.com> wrote:

>Does anyone really think that taking pepper spray out of the hands of
>police will actually curb police brutality? Take away the implement and
>something else will take its place just as quickly. I'd rather see effort
>expended on reforming the human resources of police departments.

If pepper spray is outlawed, only outlaws will have pepperspray.

They can take the pepperspray from my cold, dead fingers.

Sounds to me more like a case of the police needing a little better over-
sight into how liberally they can use it.  It seems that there are more
stories about inviduals using them for legitimate self-defense than gangs
have pepper-spray wars.

Some people carry guns for self-defense.  I'm ok with that, but it's not
my personal cup-o-tea.  I think pepper spray is great -- it is a sort of
non-lethal, non-contact self defense mechanism that allows you to safely
escape from harm without having to put a hole in someone's head just
because they attacked you.  It's not attractive or flashy enough for the
street hoods, so it seems to be a mostly self-defense tool.

As a man and being of somewhat intimidating size, I'm pretty lucky.  For
people of slighter build that might look like easy marks for street scum,
pepper-spray is the best stuff I've heard of yet for a citizen to carry.

I'd much rather have cops carrying the stuff and using it as an intermediate
step between the baton and the handgun.  Too big of a gap in between
otherwise.

All opinions expressed are mine, and somewhat generalized.  Just seems like
a silly debate to me.  It's bad enough that people can't feel safe walking
home at night, why would outlawing pepper spray make things easier?


--Doug

-- 
Doug Mason, Consulting Messaging Czar (douglas@netcom.com) 
http://www.kentconsulting.com/dmason
95/96 TZ250, AMA#154, WSMC#154, CCS#154, GLRRA#54, AFM#154r	

In ba.general Doug Mason <douglas@netcom.com> wrote:
: In article <dberkes-3012971953290001@192.168.1.30>,
: Dan Berkes-Lemos <dberkes@marvin.webcom.com> wrote:
  -SNIP-
: Some people carry guns for self-defense.  I'm ok with that, but it's not
: my personal cup-o-tea.  I think pepper spray is great -- it is a sort of
: non-lethal, non-contact self defense mechanism that allows you to safely
: escape from harm without having to put a hole in someone's head just
: because they attacked you.  

 "non-lethal" ?   If an asthmatic happens to get sprayed, either
 intenionally or accidentally then that little totally unregulated
 "non-lethal" weapon has just become a letal weapon!

 With the dramatic increase in the incidence of asthma, among 
 children and adults alike, the continued unregulated sale of
 this product is sheer stupidity!

    P. Strogen

Have I missed something or was I just hallucinating the dramatic
statistical drop in the crime rate in the U.S.? Seems like the most useful
thing to own a firearm for today is plinking--more fun, too (tastes
great/less filling argument to follow).

In article <dberkes-0101981153160001@192.168.1.30>,
dberkes@marvin.webcom.com (Dan Berkes-Lemos) wrote:

>In article <68gks0$7gf$1@nnrp1.crl.com>, pstrogenANTISPAM@crl.com wrote:
>
>>  With the dramatic increase in the incidence of asthma, among 
>>  children and adults alike, the continued unregulated sale of
>>  this product is sheer stupidity!
>
>With the dramatic increase in the incidence of rapes, muggings, and other
>violent crime, the expectation that the police will provide any sort of
>protection once you take a self-defense measure out of the hands of plain
>old ordinary citizens is sheer stupidy. 
>
>Or would you rather that the citizenry arm themselves with the latest
>Saturday night specials instead?
>
>Speaking of which, since it seems to be fairly easy to purchase an illicit
>firearm if one really wants one, imagine what regulation and prohibition
>would do for the distribution of pepper spray.
>
>-- 
> Dan Berkes-Lemos  \\//  dberkes@marvin.webcom.com
>"This life is stranger than fiction" -- Duran Duran
>         Zap the martian to reply via mail

-- 
Remove the words "NOSPAM" from my address before replying.

In ba.general Dan Berkes-Lemos <dberkes@marvin.webcom.com> wrote:

: Speaking of which, since it seems to be fairly easy to purchase an illicit
: firearm if one really wants one, imagine what regulation and prohibition
: would do for the distribution of pepper spray.

 It would more than likely keep it out of the hands of morons and 
 punks! 

 As far as "illicit" firearms go, why bother? Most anyone can purchase
 a legal firearm if one really wants one. At least most people
 understand that if they point a gun at someone and pull  the 
 trigger that the consequences will be rather severe! That is
 NOT the case with pepper spray! It is sold over the counter to
 damned near anyone without the benefit of any training in it's
 use or restrait whatsoever.

 Pepper spray should have never been made available to the 
 general public in the first place. It's bad enough that the
 police do not seem able to properly "admisister" this toxic
 agent and thay supposedly have received some training in
 it's use.

Dan Berkes-Lemos wrote:

> In article <68i3ur$eer$1@nnrp1.crl.com>, pstrogenANTISPAM@crl.com wrote:
> >  It would more than likely keep it out of the hands of morons and
> >  punks!
> Just like it would keep guns out of their hands, too, right?

Much less so.  If California banned pepper spray, Californians could easily buy
the stuff in neighboring states.  That doesn't work with guns, unless you want to
establish residency in the other state and/or risk 5 years imprisonment, per
firearm.

> Fine, "most people" understand this, yet "some people" still pull the
> trigger, and "a lot of people" die from that action, probably much more
> than have keeled over from a snoot full of pepper spray. All the years and
> decades of prohibition and regulation still hasn't stopped it.

Yeah, I'm surprised liberals don't all *love* pepper spray.  If they really wanted
to end "gun violence" rather than create a society of cowards, they'd push pepper
spray as an alternative to guns (and perhaps as an excuse for more gun control).

> >  Pepper spray should have never been made available to the
> >  general public in the first place.
> Again, you would rather have a much more powerful and lethal weapon, such
> as a gun, in the hands of the general public? Or do you merely expect the
> general public to become a meek society of victims?

He probably wants the latter.  I love hearing criminal sympathizers whine about
how inhumane it is for the rest of us to protect ourselves through any means,
lethal or non-lethal.  All those poor, misunderstood thugs are trying to do is
earn an honest living like the rest of us....

pstrogenANTISPAM@crl.com says...
> "non-lethal" ?   If an asthmatic happens to get sprayed, either
> intenionally or accidentally then that little totally unregulated
 "non-lethal" weapon has just become a letal weapon!

When was the last time you heard of an asthmatic criminal trying
to mug someone? Criminals prefer more lethal weapons of intimidation
because they are more intimidating. Pepper spray users outside of the
police are ordinary people trying to protect themselves from criminals.
When was the last time you heard of a disgruntle postal worker pepper
spraying everyone in the post office? This idea is utterly ridiculous.

> With the dramatic increase in the incidence of asthma, among 
> children and adults alike, the continued unregulated sale of
> this product is sheer stupidity!

Unregulated? You obviously know nothing about the process of purchasing
pepper spray.

-- 
                              Danny Low
                                HP NSD 
                           Danny_Low@hp.com
             "The only good vampire is a dead vampire"
              

pstrogenANTISPAM@crl.com says...
> Pepper spray should have never been made available to the 
> general public in the first place. It's bad enough that the
> police do not seem able to properly "admisister" this toxic
> agent and thay supposedly have received some training in
> it's use.

When peppers are outlawed, only outlaws will have pepper.

-- 
                              Danny Low
                                HP NSD 
                           Danny_Low@hp.com
             "The only good vampire is a dead vampire"
              

Danny Low <dlow@ppg01.sc.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> With the dramatic increase in the incidence of asthma, among 
>> children and adults alike, the continued unregulated sale of
>> this product is sheer stupidity!
>
>Unregulated? You obviously know nothing about the process of purchasing
>pepper spray.

AFAIK, it is completely unregulated at the state level.  Using the
California Codes web server (www.leginfo.ca.gov) the closest hit I
get WRT pepper dealing with peace and safety is: (searching ALL codes)

   CALIFORNIA CODES
   FOOD AND AGRICULTURAL CODE

   77203.  The production and marketing of peppers produced in this
   state is hereby declared to be affected with a public interest.  This
   chapter is enacted in the exercise of the police power of this state
   for the purpose of protecting the health, peace, safety, and general
   welfare of the people of this state.

In the context of the rest of the chapter which it was extracted 
from, it has to do with growing peppers, and a pepper commission, and
has nothing to do with the spray made from the pepper oils.  (20/20 
hindsight: I didn't search for all laws regarding "tear gas")

Viewing the 1995 bill which made it legal for uncertified citizens to
purchase and own tear gas for self defense purposes, I do see some
limitations on who can purchase or possess tear gas...  While I can 
imagine the merchants possibly filing a form certifying that each sale 
exceeded these limitations, for the most part, it appears to be mostly
unregulated.

I'd be curious as to what "regulations" you know of when buying pepper
spray, as I am considering going out and purchasing some since a little
cycling incident I had on a bike trail one night a few weeks back with
an angry and unleashed dog.

Back to the info I found, a California DOJ manual on licenses returns 
the following:

================================================================
   CA Trade & Commerce Agency 
   Business 101 
     JUSTICE, DEPARTMENT OF
[...]     
     Tear Gas for Citizen Self-Defense
     
     Assembly Bill (AB) 830, Chapter 437 (Speier), was signed into law on
     September 5, 1995 and will take effect January 1, 1996. This bill
     repeals or revises portions of California Penal Code (PC) Sections
     12401-12460 governing the regulation of tear gas and tear gas
     weapons in California, including pepper spray products.
     
     Effective January 1, 1996, the Department of Justice (DOJ) will no
     longer review or certify tear gas and tear gas weapons. It will be
     the responsibility of local law enforcement to enforce the
     provisions of this bill.
     
     Licensing and permits by DOJ: Individuals who sell tear gas aerosol
     sprays over 2.5 ounces to law enforcement and who physically posses
     and transport these products will be required to carry a tear gas
     permit by the DOJ. Individuals who sell tear gas weapons classified
     as "destructive devices," under PC Section 12301 (a), must obtain a
     destructive device permit before selling these products to law
     enforcement.
     
     The DOJ will no longer issue tear gas licenses and/or permits to
     anyone who wishes to manufacture, distribute, or sell tear gas for
     citizen self-defense purposes. Manufacturers who wants to drop-ship
     orders to law enforcement will not need a permit.
     
     Additional Information: Department of Justice, Firearms Program,
     P.O. Box 820200, Sacramento, CA 94203-0200; (916) 227-3703

[...]     
   California License Handbook
=============================================================

Looking at the 95-96 AB-830, I find:

==============================================================

AB 830 Tear gas weapons.

   BILL NUMBER: AB 830 CHAPTERED 09/05/95 
   
   CHAPTER 437
   FILED WITH SECRETARY OF STATE SEPTEMBER 5, 1995
   APPROVED BY GOVERNOR SEPTEMBER 2, 1995
   PASSED THE ASSEMBLY AUGUST 21, 1995
   PASSED THE SENATE JULY 29, 1995
   AMENDED IN SENATE JULY 3, 1995
   AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY APRIL 6, 1995
   
  INTRODUCED BY Assembly Member Speier
[...]  
   
   (3) Existing law regulates the purchase, possession, transportation,
   and use of any tear gas or tear gas weapon and makes its provisions
   applicable to, among others, specified peace officers, licensed
   private investigators, private patrol operators, employees of
   specified state agencies, and minors.
   
   This bill would revise and recast these provisions by repealing
   certain licensing requirements administered by the Department of
   Justice and other requirements covering oleoresin capsicum
   certification and the purchase, possession, or use of tear gas or tear
   gas weapons in which this active ingredient is used. The department
   would be authorized to issue a permit for the possession and
   transportation of tear gas or tear gas weapons that are not intended
   or certified for personal self-defense purposes, upon proof that good
   cause exists for the issuance of this permit.
   
   This bill would require that every tear gas container and tear gas
   weapon that may be lawfully purchased be accompanied at the time of
   purchase by printed instructions for use.
   
   This bill would also repeal the provision that no tear gas or tear gas
   weapon shall be possessed, sold, or transported in this state unless
   the Department of Justice has certified that particular type and brand
   of tear gas weapon to be acceptable. The bill would make other
   related, technical and conforming changes.
   
[...]   
   SEC. 6. Section 12403.7 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
   
   12403.7. (a) Notwithstanding any other law, any person may purchase,
   possess, or use tear gas and tear gas weapons for the projection or
   release of tear gas if the tear gas and tear gas weapons are used
   solely for self-defense purposes, subject to the following
   requirements:
   
   (1) No person convicted of a felony or any crime involving an assault
   under the laws of the United States, of the State of California, or
   any other state, government, or country or convicted of misuse of tear
   gas under paragraph (8) shall purchase, possess, or use tear gas or
   tear gas weapons.
   
   (2) No person who is addicted to any narcotic drug shall purchase,
   possess, or use tear gas or tear gas weapons.
   
   (3) No person shall sell or furnish any tear gas or tear gas weapon to
   a minor.
   
   (4) No person who is a minor shall purchase, possess, or use tear gas
   or tear gas weapons.
   
   (5) (A) No person shall purchase, possess, or use any tear gas weapon
   that expels a projectile, or that expels the tear gas by any method
   other than an aerosol spray, or that contains more than 2.5 ounces net
   weight of aerosol spray.
   
   (B) Every tear gas container and tear gas weapon that may be lawfully
   purchased, possessed, and used pursuant to this section shall have a
   label that states: "WARNING: The use of this substance or device for
   any purpose other than self-defense is a
   
   crime under the law. The contents are dangerous--use with care."
   
   (C) After January 1, 1984, every tear gas container and tear gas
   weapon that may be lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant to
   this section shall have a label that discloses the date on which the
   useful life of the tear gas weapon expires.
   
   (D) Every tear gas container and tear gas weapon that may be lawfully
   purchased pursuant to this section shall be accompanied at the time of
   purchase by printed instructions for use.
   
   (6) Effective March 1, 1994, every tear gas container and tear gas
   weapon that may be lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant to
   this section be accompanied by an insert including directions for use,
   first aid information, safety and storage information, and explanation
   of the legal ramifications of improper use of the tear gas container
   or tear gas product.
   
   (7) Any person who uses tear gas or tear gas weapons except in
   self-defense is guilty of a public offense and is punishable by
   imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months, or two or three years or
   in a county jail not to exceed one year or by a fine not to exceed one
   thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment,
   except that if the use is against a peace officer, as defined in
   Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2,
   engaged in the performance of his or her official duties and the
   person committing the offense knows or reasonably should know that the
   victim is a peace officer, the offense is punishable by imprisonment
   in a state prison for 16 months or two or three years or by a fine of
   one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.
   
   SEC. 7. Section 12403.8 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
   
   12403.8. (a) Notwithstanding paragraph (4) of subdivision (a) of
   Section 12403.7, a minor who has attained the age of 16 years may
   purchase and possess tear gas or tear gas weapons pursuant to this
   chapter if he or she is accompanied by a parent or guardian, or has
   the written consent of his or her parent or guardian.
   
   (b) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section
   12403.7, a person may sell or furnish tear gas or a tear gas weapon to
   a minor who has attained the age of 16 years and who is accompanied by
   a parent or guardian, or who presents a statement of consent signed by
   the minor's parent or guardian.
   
   (c) Any civil liability of a minor arising out of his or her use of
   tear gas or a tear gas weapon other than for self-defense is imposed
   upon the person, parent, or guardian who signed the statement of
   consent specified in subdivision (b) who shall be jointly and
   severally liable with the minor for any damages proximately resulting
   from the negligent or wrongful act or omission of the minor in the use
   of the tear gas or a tear gas weapon.
[...]   
====================================================================

-- 
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Reverend Tweek says...
>I'd be curious as to what "regulations" you know of when buying pepper
>spray, as I am considering going out and purchasing some since a little
>cycling incident I had on a bike trail one night a few weeks back with
>an angry and unleashed dog.

You have found the pertinent laws on who can buy pepper spray. FYI these are 
the essentially the same requirements for buying a long gun in this state. It 
is also my undertstanding that what you can buy as a civilian is not as 
powerful as what the police can buy.

-- 
                              Danny Low
                                HP NSD 
                           Danny_Low@hp.com
             "The only good vampire is a dead vampire"
              

In article <68gks0$7gf$1@nnrp1.crl.com>,  <pstrogenANTISPAM@crl.com> wrote:

> With the dramatic increase in the incidence of asthma, among 
> children and adults alike, the continued unregulated sale of
> this product is sheer stupidity!

11 people died from Asprin last year, I'm going to try to get in banned.  With
all the headaches caused by stress nowadays, it's incredible that such lethal
stuff is available over the counter.

I think in California (or at least it used to be) you had to have a permit
to carry pepper spray.  I still have one around somewhere, so I knew this
firsthand.


--Doug


-- 
Doug Mason, Consulting Messaging Czar (douglas@netcom.com) 
http://www.kentconsulting.com/dmason
95/96 TZ250, AMA#154, WSMC#154, CCS#154, GLRRA#54, AFM#154r