Thread View: uk.tech.digital-tv
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Started by Green Xenon [Radium]
Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:49
Y [Luminance] signal on FM carrier wave.
Author: Green Xenon [Radium]
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:49
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:49
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On Oct 31, 4:06 pm, "Bob Myers" <nospample...@address.invalid> wrote in http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tech.digital-tv/msg/9488d94d6dfd0862 : > "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com> wrote in messagenews:4727a189$0$19640$4c368faf@roadrunner.com... > > > I'd like my QAM video > > signal to be at least > > 1-billion-bits-per-symbol but > > no more than 1-symbol-per-second. > > I then want to transmit this video > > signal on an ULF FM radio signal > > whose carrier wave is only 300 Hz. > I realize you're again just > either trolling or so astoundingly > ignorant of > the field that it's amazing you're > walking around without a keeper, > but...why? > What possible advantage would such > a system have, if it were possible > in the first place (which it isn't, > not by a rather large number of orders > of magnitude)? Okay I got a bit carried away here. Sorry. 1-billion-bits-per-symbol is equivalent allows for 2-to-the-p-wer-1,000,000,000 voltages. This is not possible. Just an imagination. Please forgive me and forget about it. Anyways, the QAM should be given the highest practical bit-resolution. 1-symbol-per-second should be the baud because I want to send the most information while using the least bandwidth. The following is interesting but only theoretically-possible. Not gonna happen with today's technology: The minimum voltage should be set to 1.6e-19 volt. A charge can generate a voltage. An area with one free electron vs. an area with no free electrons has a difference of 1.6e-19 volt because a single electron has a negative charge of 1.6e-19 coulomb Hence, the minimum voltage should be set to 1.6e-19 volt. The maximum voltage should be set to the highest you can get *without* doing any of the following to any extent: 1. Exceeding the dielectric strength of any electronic component 2. Generating temperatures above 70 Fahrenheit in any electronic component 3. Ionizing any electronic component The bit-resolution should be high enough that each "level" is a difference of 1.6e-19 volt from the level above/below. A resolution of 8-bit allows for only 256 different levels -- obviously *way* too low for deciphering all those voltage levels with differences of 1.6e-19 volt and with 1.6e-19 volt being the lowest voltage and the maximum voltage being just low enough *not* to do the undesired 1, 2, and 3 shown on the above list. 8-bits of resolution simply isn't *nearly* enough for this task because there are obviously a *lot* more than 256 voltage levels in the above. > And what in the hell does "QAM video signal" on an "FM radio signal" > mean in the first place? A QAM signal is broadcasted on an FM radio wave. What don't you understand about this? Anyways, again, the following is interesting but only theoretically-possible. Not gonna happen with today's technology: The original Y signal is converted to QAM. This QAM signal is then broadcasted on an FM radio carrier wave whose base frequency is 300 Hz. 300 Hz is the lowest ULF frequency and the lowest frequency used by telephones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_low_frequency Prior to converting the Y signal to QAM, the temporal and spatial frequencies [excluding DC -- 0 hertz] are downshifted in real time [sort of like the video-equivalent of the voice-changers used on the phone which can decrease the pitch of your voice in real time without decreasing the speed of your speech]. This frequency downshifting does not involve decreasing the "speeds" of the temporal or spatial components of the Y-signal. All temporal and spatial frequencies other than zero-hertz are shifted closer to zero. This decreases the bandwidth of the Y-signal. No low-pass filtering. No changing the speed of the temporal signal. No changing the size of the spatial signal. Even though the spatial signal does not have "speed" as its component because it is -- by nature -- static, it does have an equivalent which I have a hard time figuring out. Perhaps it�s the size? Decreasing the "speed" might involve increasing the size of the image? I am guessing this is the case. There are many audio softwares that allow downshifting the frequencies of music until they are closer to zero. They can do this without slowing the playback speed or increasing the length of the song. If a frequency is zero Hz, its stays at zero. However, if a frequency is not zero, it is shifted closer to zero. Apparently -- from what I see on the graph my audio software [Adobe Audition 1.5] -- downshifting decreases the amount of cycles per distance and then increases the lengths of the waves. So basically the signal does not take up more space than it did prior to the pitch-shifting. The amount of waves per area decreases but the remaining waves are increased in length, so the distance from where the waves started to where they finish do not decrease -- their lengths increase but their amounts decrease. So overall, the distance from start to finish remains the same. Hence the file�s length does not change. The real-time-video-equivalent of the above is done to decrease the overall frequency [and bandwidth] of the Y-signal prior to converting it to QAM. A sufficient amount of this frequency-downshifting is done to the original Y-signal such that the resulting QAM signal does not cause the FM signal to develop sidebands beyond 301 Hz or 299 Hz -- sideband is only 1 Hz + or - from baseband. Equally important, prior to conversion to QAM, the amplitude levels of the Y-signal are brought closer to the neutral without decreasing the amount of levels -- darker than neutral result is represented by a negative electric current while brighter than neutral is represented as a positive electric current. When the Y-signal is at medium light intensity, the current is neutral [i.e. right on the x-axis of a graph when measured]. Anyways, all of the brightness levels are shifted towards the x-axis so that the resulting QAM signal will not cause the FM radio signal's frequency to deviate beyond 301 Hz or 299 Hz -- peak deviation is only 1 Hz + or - from baseband. In a luminance signal, the medium light intensity is represented by voltages that are neither positive nor negative. If the light intensity increases above the medium brightness, a positive voltage results. If the light intensity falls below medium brightness, a negative voltage results. This is because the Y-signal is represented by AC current. The chroma along with instructions regarding how to reverse-process the Y-signal [so the original Y-signal is retrieved] -- as well as properly linking the chroma with the luma -- is delivered from the transmitting end to the receiving end via optic fibers. That way the equipment receiving the FM video signal can best decode the video back to how it originally looked -- not exactly how it looked but close. One potential disadvantage of this tech is the white flashes on the receiver's screen when there are electrical storms in the atmosphere [such as lightning], or manmade electric disturbances such as florescent lamps and automobile ignitions. Such visual interferences are worse during cloudy/rainy weather -- even if there is no lightning. The reception maybe FM, but the receiver is built to be extremely sensitive to the extremely low power signals emitted from the transmitting end. This FM receiver can coherently receive frequency-modulated 300 Hz electromagnetic signals as weak as 1.3e-24 watts per square meter. This weak signal is equivalent to 1 photon per second per square meter. Turn on a distant xenon-lamp [on the otherside of the world] and boom! The monitor displaying the video signals will start to show some interesting white disruptions -- dancing zig-zag lines, sawtooth waves, etc. That�s how sensitive this receiver is.
Re: Y [Luminance] signal on FM carrier wave.
Author: Green Xenon [Radium]
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:58
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 22:58
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Green Xenon [Radium] wrote: > "Bob Myers" <nospample...@address.invalid> wrote in > http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tech.digital-tv/msg/9488d94d6dfd0862 : Another f--king typo! that should be http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tech.digital-tv/msg/66f36babcae7864f not http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tech.digital-tv/msg/9488d94d6dfd0862 Sorry. On Oct 31, 4:06 pm, "Bob Myers" <nospample...@address.invalid> wrote in http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tech.digital-tv/msg/66f36babcae7864f :
Re: Y [Luminance] signal on FM carrier wave.
Author: Roderick Stewart
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 23:00
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 23:00
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In article <472b9a39$0$20584$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Green Xenon [Radium] wrote: > Anyways, again, the following is interesting but only� > theoretically-possible. Not gonna happen with today's technology: > > The original Y signal is converted to QAM. This QAM signal is then� > broadcasted on an FM radio carrier wave whose base frequency is 300 Hz.� > 300 Hz is the lowest ULF frequency and the lowest frequency used by� > telephones. Not gonna happen at all. If you try to modulate a 300Hz carrier with 5MHz video you'll end up with a mess. > Prior to converting the Y signal to QAM, the temporal and spatial� > frequencies [excluding DC -- 0 hertz] are downshifted in real time [sort� > of like the video-equivalent of the voice-changers used on the phone� > which can decrease the pitch of your voice in real time without� > decreasing the speed of your speech]. This frequency downshifting does� > not involve decreasing the "speeds" of the temporal or spatial� > components of the Y-signal. All temporal and spatial frequencies other� > than zero-hertz are shifted closer to zero. This decreases the bandwidth� > of the Y-signal. No low-pass filtering. No changing the speed of the� > temporal signal. No changing the size of the spatial signal. You still believe in magic, don't you? Rod.
Re: Y [Luminance] signal on FM carrier wave.
Author: spamtrap1888
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 23:49
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 23:49
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On Nov 2, 5:36 pm, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com> wrote: > Roderick Stewart wrote: > > Not gonna happen at all. If you try to modulate a 300Hz carrier with 5MHz > > video you'll end up with a mess. > > So decrease the 5 MHz frequency to a frequency that is low enough not to > cause any distortion on a 300 Hz carrier. I'm thinking 6 Hz would work; maybe as much as 9 Hz. > > You still believe in magic, don't you? > > What about this is magic? Have you ever considered actually doing an electronics course? Not that I envy whoever would have to teach you.
Re: Y [Luminance] signal on FM carrier wave.
Author: Green Xenon [Radium]
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 00:36
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 00:36
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Roderick Stewart wrote: > In article <472b9a39$0$20584$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Green Xenon [Radium] > wrote: > >>Anyways, again, the following is interesting but only >>theoretically-possible. Not gonna happen with today's technology: >> >>The original Y signal is converted to QAM. This QAM signal is then >>broadcasted on an FM radio carrier wave whose base frequency is 300 Hz. >>300 Hz is the lowest ULF frequency and the lowest frequency used by >>telephones. > > > Not gonna happen at all. If you try to modulate a 300Hz carrier with 5MHz > video you'll end up with a mess. So decrease the 5 MHz frequency to a frequency that is low enough not to cause any distortion on a 300 Hz carrier. > > >>Prior to converting the Y signal to QAM, the temporal and spatial >>frequencies [excluding DC -- 0 hertz] are downshifted in real time [sort >>of like the video-equivalent of the voice-changers used on the phone >>which can decrease the pitch of your voice in real time without >>decreasing the speed of your speech]. This frequency downshifting does >>not involve decreasing the "speeds" of the temporal or spatial >>components of the Y-signal. All temporal and spatial frequencies other >>than zero-hertz are shifted closer to zero. This decreases the bandwidth >>of the Y-signal. No low-pass filtering. No changing the speed of the >>temporal signal. No changing the size of the spatial signal. > > You still believe in magic, don't you? What about this is magic?
Re: Y [Luminance] signal on FM carrier wave.
Author: spamtrap1888
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 00:40
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 00:40
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On Nov 2, 6:36 pm, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com> wrote: > spamtrap1...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Nov 2, 5:36 pm, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com> > > wrote: > >>Roderick Stewart wrote: > >>>Not gonna happen at all. If you try to modulate a 300Hz carrier with 5MHz > >>>video you'll end up with a mess. > >>So decrease the 5 MHz frequency to a frequency that is low enough not to > >>cause any distortion on a 300 Hz carrier. > > I'm thinking 6 Hz would work; maybe as much as 9 Hz. > > What are you talking about? 6 Hz or 9 Hz of what? short attention span a problem for you? >>a frequency that is low enough not to >>cause any distortion on a 300 Hz carrier.
Re: Y [Luminance] signal on FM carrier wave.
Author: Green Xenon [Radium]
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 01:36
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 01:36
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spamtrap1888@gmail.com wrote: > On Nov 2, 5:36 pm, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com> > wrote: >>Roderick Stewart wrote: >>>Not gonna happen at all. If you try to modulate a 300Hz carrier with 5MHz >>>video you'll end up with a mess. >>So decrease the 5 MHz frequency to a frequency that is low enough not to >>cause any distortion on a 300 Hz carrier. > I'm thinking 6 Hz would work; maybe as much as 9 Hz. What are you talking about? 6 Hz or 9 Hz of what?
Re: Y [Luminance] signal on FM carrier wave.
Author: Green Xenon [Radium]
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 01:52
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 01:52
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spamtrap1888@gmail.com wrote: > On Nov 2, 6:36 pm, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com> > wrote: >>What are you talking about? 6 Hz or 9 Hz of what? > short attention span a problem for you? Sorry. I still don't understand what you're discussing about the 6 Hz and 9 Hz?
Re: Y [Luminance] signal on FM carrier wave.
Author: Roderick Stewart
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 03:09
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 03:09
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In article <472bb331$0$25644$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Green Xenon [Radium] wrote: > >>Anyways, again, the following is interesting but only� > >>theoretically-possible. Not gonna happen with today's technology: > >> > >>The original Y signal is converted to QAM. This QAM signal is then� > >>broadcasted on an FM radio carrier wave whose base frequency is 300 Hz.� > >>300 Hz is the lowest ULF frequency and the lowest frequency used by� > >>telephones. > > >� > >� > > Not gonna happen at all. If you try to modulate a 300Hz carrier with 5MHz� > > video you'll end up with a mess. > > So decrease the 5 MHz frequency to a frequency that is low enough not to� > cause any distortion on a 300 Hz carrier. It's not a frequency, it's a *range* of frequencies. 5MHz is roughly the bandwidth required for a standard TV signal. You can't reduce it without reducing the picture quality, and if you reduce it too far it wouldn't be recogniseable as a picture at all. 5MHz bandwidth just doesn't fit in the bandwidth available with a 300Hz carrier. It's like trying to route motorway traffic down a garden path, or funnel a river through a drinking straw; it simply doesn't fit; it's fundamentally impossible. Several people have tried to explain this to you already but you keep hoping there will be some magic solution and there isn't one. Rod.
Re: Y [Luminance] signal on FM carrier wave.
Author: Travis James
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 04:00
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 04:00
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Hey guys, please remove ba.broadcast from the crossposts.
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