🚀 go-pugleaf

  Terry Poot (tp@mccall.com) raised several issues about DECset, and
  particularly the LSE component, several days ago.  Let me try to respond to
  them all (Terry, if I miss something please followup.)  Warning - this may be
  a little lengthy.

>I use VAXset v10, and now have the CDrom with DECset v11. Looking through the
>release notes it seems that massive changes have been made to LSE and SCA. The
>SCA changes look quite interesting, but the LSE changes have me a bit worried.
>I'm in the middle of a project and can't take the time to learn the new stuff
>and teach it to the other guy here. The SCA stuff, however, looks quite
>appealing and I'd like to be able to access it.
>
>The release notes mention a bunch of compatibility settings, but really only
>hint at them. The only manuals on the CDrom are guides, and don't talk about
>back-compatibility at all. The reference manuals aren't on the CD! They are in
>the product kits and you have to install the stuff to easily get access to 
>them!  (That's a first, as far as I know, and one I don't like, the reference 
>manuals should be on the CD.)

  The new document packaging has gotten some mixed reviews.  Some like it, some
  don't.  I suspect that what you are missing is that the reference manuals are
  included within the DECset images - there is a new set of savesets called
  DECSETDOCS that contains the manuals you want.  

  Unfortunately, for various reasons I'd rather not go into, we do not have
  bookreader format for these books.  The normal CD documentation distribution
  requires bookreader format, so they could not be included there.  Faced with
  not having the books available on-line, or putting them in our kits - we put
  them in the kits.

>So, anyone know the story? Can I install this stuff without rewriting my 
>section files and language environments and relearning and retraining almost 
>as though they were new products? Or should I resign myself to not having this 
>stuff till I can devote a week to getting it all up to speed? 

  You can install without breaking everything.  Installed correctly, LSE users
  that use the system section file won't be able to tell the a new LSE has been
  installed.  LSE users with customized section files will need to rebuild
  them, as is true of every new release of LSE.

>If the 
>compatibility stuff is all there, could anyone summarize how to turn it all 
>on? 

  LSE'S installation checks to see if there is a previously installed LSE.  If
  there is one, it asks the installer if he/she wants the use the default
  settings of the installed LSE.  If the installer says "yes" the user base
  won't be able to tell there is a new LSE on the system except for rebuilding
  their private section files which has always been the case for LSE.

  Note carefully!  LSE V4.0 has two command languages on VMS.  The V3.1
  compatable language and a "Portable Language" developed to be operating
  system independent and portably implemented. (The V3.1 compatable language
  depended on VMS)

  Documentation for the V3.1 compatable language is no longer shipped. So if
  you intend to continue to use it, save your manual(s).

>Any other gotchas on DECset v11? 

  You should be aware, if you haven't already gotten it, that there is a DECset
  version V11.0a that fixes the following problems:

      - A potential data corruption within very large CMS libraries.
      - Installing MMS did not recognize the existence of FMS correctly.
      - Installing PCA required DECwindows Motif to be on the system - even if
           you didn't want the Motif interface.

  The installation problems can be worked around (albeit not trivially.) 
  However, the CMS problem is potentially quite serious, and we recommend that
  you update to the new version of CMS.

>Comments on the debugger (I know I'm drifting off topic for this
>group, but I thought I'd ask, since I'm here :-) ).

  The debugger is essentially the same debugger coming out in new VMS releases.
  It has a *much* improved graphical interface.  We included it on the DECset
  kit as a "sneak preview", so that it would be available earlier than if it
  waited for a VMS release.

  The debugger may or may not continue to be released with DECset.  It will
  depend to some extent upon how the DECset, debugger and VMS schedules
  synchronize.
--
Chris Walsh    			walsh@zko.enet.dec.com
603.881.2302  (DTN 381-2302)    

In article <1993Jan11.182258.6008@e2big.mko.dec.com>, walsh@sparty.zko.dec.com
(Chris Walsh - DECset project lead writes:
>  Terry Poot (tp@mccall.com) raised several issues about DECset, and
>  particularly the LSE component, several days ago.  Let me try to respond to
>  them all (Terry, if I miss something please followup.)  Warning - this may
>be
>  a little lengthy.

Thank you!

>  The new document packaging has gotten some mixed reviews.  Some like it,
>some
>  don't.  I suspect that what you are missing is that the reference manuals
>are
>  included within the DECset images - there is a new set of savesets called
>  DECSETDOCS that contains the manuals you want.  

Great. Do I vmsinstal that or just unpack it? This stuff is on the CD, and I
just ran out the release notes with vmsinstal to review. I didn't catch the part
about the docs being separate, if it was in there.

>  Unfortunately, for various reasons I'd rather not go into, we do not have
>  bookreader format for these books.  

Is this a permanent situation? I'd _really_ prefer them to be on the doc CD's.

>The normal CD documentation distribution
>  requires bookreader format, so they could not be included there.  Faced with
>  not having the books available on-line, or putting them in our kits - we put
>  them in the kits.

Given you didn't have bookreader format, I think you made the right choice. But
again, I'd still prefer them on CD. Depending on how big they are, I may have to
print and then delete them, and I still won't have it on-line. I'll probably
print it anyway since there is so much new, so I do like having the option (one
of my gripes about bookreader, incidentally, is that I can't print that stuff).
What I'd really like, I guess, is both Bookreader and Postscript formats for
everything. I know I'm dreaming. :-)

>  You can install without breaking everything.  Installed correctly, LSE users
>  that use the system section file won't be able to tell the a new LSE has
>been
>  installed.  LSE users with customized section files will need to rebuild
>  them, as is true of every new release of LSE.

I don't mind rebuilding, I've got the source. As long as I don't have to rewrite
the source using the new command language, I'm happy.

>  LSE'S installation checks to see if there is a previously installed LSE.  If
>  there is one, it asks the installer if he/she wants the use the default
>  settings of the installed LSE.  If the installer says "yes" the user base
>  won't be able to tell there is a new LSE on the system except for rebuilding
>  their private section files which has always been the case for LSE.

Hmm. I must have neglected to read the installation guide, because I missed all
of that. Sorry.

>  Note carefully!  LSE V4.0 has two command languages on VMS.  The V3.1
>  compatable language and a "Portable Language" developed to be operating
>  system independent and portably implemented. (The V3.1 compatable language
>  depended on VMS)
>
>  Documentation for the V3.1 compatable language is no longer shipped. So if
>  you intend to continue to use it, save your manual(s).

Thanks for the warning. 

>      - A potential data corruption within very large CMS libraries.

Again, thanks for the warning. This one could have sunk us.

>>Comments on the debugger (I know I'm drifting off topic for this
>>group, but I thought I'd ask, since I'm here :-) ).
>
>  The debugger is essentially the same debugger coming out in new VMS
>releases.
>  It has a *much* improved graphical interface.  We included it on the DECset
>  kit as a "sneak preview", so that it would be available earlier than if it
>  waited for a VMS release.

I'm going to have to try out all this stuff in decwindows mode it seems. I long
ago just set it all up to mostly use decterms, especially the debugger.

Thanks very much for the authoritative answers! I really want to get my hands on
the new stuff, and now it looks like it'll be safe to install it (after reading
the release notes, installation guides, and reference manuals, of course). 
--
Terry Poot <tp@mccall.com>                   The McCall Pattern Company
(uucp: ...!rutgers!depot!mccall!tp)          615 McCall Road
(800)255-2762, in KS (913)776-4041           Manhattan, KS 66502, USA