Re: magnetic insoles

#15

Author: King & Associates Int'l
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:00

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Deacon:

This has become quite a topic for discussion and it is time to wrap it up,
it really has gone on long enough).

I do recall stating earlier I am NOT a scientist and I am not familiar with
all the is required of scientific study any more than you may be aware of
how to compose a symphony or master choral work etc. ( I am a professional
musician).

The problem I find with quoting scientific studies regarding many topics is
there are always conflicting studies no matter what the topic (except for
maybe the earth being round and the sun being stationary).  You keep giving
the address of a web site which supposidly shows topics classified under the
general heading of "quakery", this I must admit is "cute".  Who determined
all this "stuff" was quakery?  Who has given these people permission to pass
judgement on all these things??  I agree, most of the topics covered are
questionable and if one uses their God-given common sense will stay clear of
them BUT not all that is listed can be "proven" as quakery, some I would
suggest are put in this list by just general consent.

Of course, I expect you to come back to me (us) with all kinds of
qualifications for the people involved etc. BUT you would be missing my
point if you did.  Let's take for example your contention that "magnets"
used in shoe insoles, elbow wraps, ankle wraps and the like is "quakery".
You will immediately site several well known scientists etc. with all kinds
of letters after their names to "prove" your point.  I on the other hand
would respond by giving a list of my own to "prove" the opposite is true
therefore we come to a complete stand-still (as I already suggested in my
last email).  Personally, I am not about to get into a "spitting" contest
with you.  Conclusion: round and round we go and where she stop's nobody
knows.  So what do we do to break this stale-mate.  How is a person suppose
to know what to do with conflicting sources of information from people who
all have letters after their names and are specialists in their respective
fields and cannot agree.  The answer of course is to investigate for
yourself, in other words -  "buyer beware".

My wife and I just bought a new vaccuum cleaner, best vaccuum we have ever
owned.  Picks up stuff our last vaccuum cleaner obviously did not even know
existed, even has a hepa-filter for my allergies.  Consumer Reports magazine
included it in a study recently and ranked it very low when compared to the
other ones in its class, my response to the report was to ignore it because
our experience has shown us otherwise.

My point is exactly the same one I gave in my last email,  I use the
products because it has been my experience they work on me!!  I really don't
care what the "experts" say (expert - a drip under pressure) and by the way,
I did NOT hear any testimonial about the product prior to trying it
therefore I had no preconcieved ideas ( no "suggestion") one way or the
other about it's "effectiveness".  I knew you would not accept my suggestion
to check out "Healing With Magnets" because I knew you would question the
authority of Dr. Gary Null and since I don't know the man or his supposed
qualifications I will not pass any comment here except to say the portion of
the book I suggested was NOT written by him, I did point that out in my last
email.

Perhaps another book would be more to your liking..."Magnet Therapy" by Dr.
Ron Lawrence, M.D., Ph.D and Dr. Paul J. Rosch, M.D., F.A.C.P. (ISBN
0-7615-1547-X).  "This book is a valuable resouce for consumers who are
confused about claims for magnets...it seperates fact from fancy" - Dr.
Martin Blank, Ph.D., Department of Physiology and Cellular Biophysics,
Columbia University.  Links to relevant studies may also be found on the
folowing web site www.5pillars.com

Bottom line:  I believe these products work because I have experienced
relief for my own discomforts only AFTER I started using them (coincidence -
isn't that always the answer??).  I know I can do things now that I could
not do as little as a year ago when I was not using them.  I can go out and
golf 18 holes now (no big deal to most people but it is to me!!).  I can get
out of bed in the morning without cringing as my back goes spastic and I am
not as stiff.  I have not taken a Tylenol3 or other strong pill to ease my
back discomfort in over a year.  No matter what you state or claim, no
matter what scientific studies you throw at me I have already determined for
my body this stuff works.

I leave the final word to Dr. Ron Lawrence and Dr. Rosch who in their book
state..."Up to the present, the study of magnets has been just a field.  It
is just starting to become a science.  We don't know how magnets,
acupuncture, homeopathy, or for that matter, how aspirin works; but that's
not particularly important.  Theories don't have to be correct; only facts
do. ...Such applies to magnets today.  Many current theories about why
magnets work are incorrect.  what is important are the facts, and the fact
is that they do work, even if we don't completely understand why or how."

Robert King
King & Associates International

Re: magnetic insoles

#16

Author: Colin Bigam
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:00

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On Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:24:26 -0600, "King & Associates Int'l"
<kai@5pillars.com> wrote:

>Deacon:

>The problem I find with quoting scientific studies regarding many topics is
>there are always conflicting studies no matter what the topic

Um, no there aren't. A good, careful, controlled study in any field
will (almost) always give reliable, consistent results. If not, then
you've possibly discovered something. (if only that your scientific
method and/or experiment is lacking)

Tell you what. I've got references to a lot of good scientific studies
that say magnetic insoles are snake oil. The only way you can claim
otherwise is to provide an equally rigorous scientific study that
indicates otherwise. Until then, I (and anyone else) is perfectly free
to call you a snake oil salesman. In fact, even if you came up with
good evidence that they worked, I'd still have permission to pass
judgement on them. In fact, I'd say it's my duty to do so, even if I
were in the minority.

Colin
(not deacon)

Re: magnetic insoles

#10

Author: John Bain
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 00:00

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  (Colin Bigam) wrote:

> Tell you what. I've got references to a lot of good scientific studies
> that say magnetic insoles are snake oil.

I'd be grateful to see them.   I've only found the 1997 study which
used home made insoles.
Evaluation of magnetic foil and PPT Insoles in the treatment of heel
pain.
Caselli MA, Clark N, Lazarus S, Velez Z, Venegas L
Department of Orthopedic Sciences, New York College of Podiatric
Medicine, NY, USA.
J Am Podiatr Med Assoc 1997 Jan;87(1):11-6

Against that I would put these two studies
Chronic submaximal magnetic stimulation in peripheral neuropathy
Weintraub M
American Journal of Pain Management. 1998;8:9-13. (New York Medical
Center)
Magnetic biostimulation in painful diabetic peripheral neuropathy
Weintraub M
American Journal of Pain Management. 1999; 9:8-17. (New York Medical
Center)

Which used commercially available insoles for periprheral and diabetic
neuropathy pain and were very successful.   There is a multisite study
across the US now in progress.

If you know of other studies please let me know, I would like to add
them to my collection.   I have over 200 positive studies and only 9
negative studies.

Best wishes
--
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
Surround Sound for Television

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Re: magnetic insoles

#11

Author: His Divine Shadow
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:00

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in article 8m1b4t$1no$1@nnrp1.deja.com, John Bain at JBainSI@aol.com wrote
on 7/30/00 7:38 AM:


> 
> If you know of other studies please let me know, I would like to add
> them to my collection.   I have over 200 positive studies and only 9
> negative studies.

You have 200 double-blind peer reviewed published studies on pain managment
using magnets? I'll call BS on that one.

Re: magnetic insoles

#12

Author: John Bain
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 00:00

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<his_shadow@my-deja.com> wrote:
   >John Bain at JBainSI@aol.com wrote
   > > If you know of other studies please let me know,
   > > I would like to add them to my collection.
   > > I have over 200 positive studies and only 9
   > > negative studies.
> You have 200 double-blind peer reviewed published studies on
> pain managmentusing magnets? I'll call BS on that one.

My collection is magnotherapy studies in general, ranging from
Altzheimers to Ulcers all taken from Medline.   You will see a partial
list here
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/References.htm

Now back to the subject.   You said you had several studies showing
magnotherapy insoles do not work.   Please post your references, I've
posted mine.

Best wishes
--
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
Surround Sound for Television

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Re: magnetic insoles

#13

Author: His Divine Shadow
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 00:00

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in article 8m7dl8$eu8$1@nnrp1.deja.com, John Bain at JBainSI@aol.com wrote
on 8/1/00 2:58 PM:

> <his_shadow@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> John Bain at JBainSI@aol.com wrote
>>> If you know of other studies please let me know,
>>> I would like to add them to my collection.
>>> I have over 200 positive studies and only 9
>>> negative studies.
>> You have 200 double-blind peer reviewed published studies on
>> pain managmentusing magnets? I'll call BS on that one.
> 
> My collection is magnotherapy studies in general, ranging from
> Altzheimers to Ulcers all taken from Medline.   You will see a partial
> list here
> http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/References.htm
> 
> Now back to the subject.   You said you had several studies showing
> magnotherapy insoles do not work.   Please post your references, I've
> posted mine.

That was not me. That was another poster.

However, there is no valid method by which magnetic insoles can work for
pain management or blood flow, aside from the fact that they are insoles. If
you have an evidenced theory of operation,please post it. Links
demonstrating why they cannot work have already been posted in this NG.

In addition to the fact that your list is just that,a list (with no
abstracts or data) some of the 'studies' you list seem quite meaningless.

>Scientific Definition of the Magnetic Treatment of Water: Its Subsequent Use in
>Preventing Scale Formation and Removing Scale.
>Marth, R.A. 
>1997. A� Research Conducted for Descal-A-Matic Corporation

Descal-A-Matic? Anyone think they might have an interest in the results of
any study of their own device? Hello?

http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html

Consumer Reports magazine (Denver 1996) tested a $535 magnetic water
treatment device from Descal-A-Matic Corporation. Two electric water heaters
were installed in the home of one of the Consumer Reports staffers. The hard
water (200 ppm) entering one of the heaters was first passed through the
magnetic treatment device. The second water heater received untreated water.
The water heaters were cut open after more than two years and after more
than 10,000 gallons of water were heated by each heater. The tanks were
found to contain the same quantity and texture of scale. Consumer Reports
concluded that the Descal-A-Matic unit was ineffective.

http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html

>Kronenberg, Klaus J. Magnetic water treatment demystified. (paper courtesy of
>Teldon of Canada Ltd.)

Magnetic water treatment? There are no effects on water by anything but
extremely strong fieds. What exactly is the field supposed to be operating
on?

>Kronenberg, Klaus J. Magnetised: What makes treating water with magnets so
>alluring Aqua Magazine, August 1993, pp. 20-24

Aqua magazine? I said peer reviewed double blind studies, not opinion
articles from a hot tub magazine.

>Narvaez, Thomas. The analysis of water using intrinsic data fields. A paper
>presented to the Institute for Advanced Water Sciences Research, October 1997

Intrinsic data fields? It's WATER. I can't find a lick of info on the IAWSR,
and any posts on newsgroups concerning this org are prefaced by questions
about 'structured water' and other bunk. Water does not have mamory, and
anyone who wants to be taken seriously should steer as far away as possible
from claims for the effectiveness of homeopathic 'cures'. Seeing as how they
are nothing but distilled water, they can have no treatment value except as
a placebo, which isn't really treatment anyway.

Even if magnets can be used to soften water, and that has nothing to do with
blood flow or pain management anyway. Niether do a collection of articles
about magnetic fluids and their behaviour in magnetic fields, and the human
body is not magnetic, and neither is your blood.

Re: magnetic insoles

#14

Author: John Fleming
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 00:00

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John Bain <JBainSI@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8m7dl8$eu8$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
> <his_shadow@my-deja.com> wrote:
>    >John Bain at JBainSI@aol.com wrote
>    > > If you know of other studies please let me know,
>    > > I would like to add them to my collection.
>    > > I have over 200 positive studies and only 9
>    > > negative studies.
> > You have 200 double-blind peer reviewed published studies on
> > pain managmentusing magnets? I'll call BS on that one.
>
> My collection is magnotherapy studies in general, ranging from
> Altzheimers to Ulcers all taken from Medline.   You will see a
partial
> list here
> http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/References.htm

Interesting site.

Let's take this abstract you quote here

* * * * * Begin Abstract * * * * *

Title Use of magnet therapy to heal an abdominal wound: a case study.
Szor JK; Topp R Toledo Hospital, Ohio, USA.
Ostomy Wound Manage, 44(5):24-9 1998 May
Abstract
Complementary therapies, in particular magnet therapy, may have
benefits to offer in healing chronic wounds. This case study involves
a 51 year old paraplegic woman with an abdominal wound that had been
present for one year. Traditional approaches to wound care had not
achieved complete healing. Prior to surgical intervention, the patient
consented to the application of magnet therapy over her usual wound
dressing. In one month, the wound completely healed. On the basis of
this case, further investigation of magnet therapy for wound healing
appears to be warranted.

* * * * * End Abstract * * * * *

All the author indicates is that the matter may be worthy of further
investigation.

The case refers to a single patient, and may not be statistically
relevant.  While it may have worked here, there is no indication that
the treatment could produce similar effects with even a small study
group.

There is no indication of any steps taken to counter any placebo
effect.  The patient was aware of the unorthodox treatment, and may
have recovered *because she believed it would work.* (My emphasis)

Let's look at another one.

* * * * * Begin Abstract * * * * *

Title Magnetic fields and seasonality of affective illness:
implications for therapy.
Author Sandyk R; Anninos PA; Tsagas N Department of Psychiatry, Albert
Einstein College of Medicine/Montefiore Medical Center, Bronx, NY
10461. Source Int J Neurosci, 58(3-4):261-7 1991 Jun
Abstract
Seasonal affective disorder is characterized by recurrent winter
depression associated with hypersomnia, overeating, and carbohydrate
craving. The severe form of winter depression affects about 5% of the
general population and is believed to be caused by light deficiency.
About 70%-80% of patients with winter depression experience
attenuation of symptoms when exposed to bright light therapy.
Hypotheses pertaining to the pathogenesis of winter depression
implicate the effects of light on different characteristics of
circadian rhythms. One of the environmental factors which may be
implicated, in addition to light, in the pathophysiology of winter
depression is the geomagnetic field. There is strong indication that
the pineal gland is a magnetosensitive system and that changes in the
ambient magnetic field alter melatonin secretion and synchronize the
circadian rhythms. In man, shielding of the ambient magnetic field
significantly desynchronizes circadian rhythms which could be
gradually resynchronized after application of magnetic fields. The
strength of the environmental magnetic field diminishes during the
winter months, leading to increased susceptibility for
desynchronization of circadian rhythms. Thus, since the acute
application of magnetic fields in experimental animals resembles that
of acute exposure to light with respect to melatonin secretion (i.e.,
suppression of melatonin secretion), magnetic treatment might be
beneficial for patients with winter depression. In addition, since the
environmental light and magnetic fields, which undergo diurnal and
seasonal
variations, influence the activity of the pineal gland, we propose
that a synergistic effect of light and magnetic therapy in patients
with winter depression would be more physiological and, therefore,
superior to phototherapy alone.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

* * * * * End Abstract * * * * *

Again, even the study is careful to suggest that magnetic fields may
be a factor and worthy of further investigation.

The reference to seasonal variation in environmental magnetic fields
is interesting, and is a surprise to me.

Of course, because the Earth does follow an elliptical orbit, it is
closer to the sun at certain times of the year than others.
Logically, when the Earth is a bit closer to the sun, the solar
component of the environmental fields would be a bit stronger.

Of course, that suggests that we should see the reverse effect in the
southern hemisphere.  I.e., if the environemental magnetic field is
stronger in the northern hemisphere during the summer, then it should
also be stronger in the southern hemisphere during the winter
months--a condition that would nullify any connection with seasonal
affective disorder as I understand it.

Any other behaviour in the environmental magnetic fields would be
inconsistent with my understanding of the bahaviour of magnetic
fields.

Now, you may have a reference to a study or two that delves into this
material further, and I missed it because I have a limited amount of
time to go through all your references and track down some of the
quoted studies.  If there is one, I'd appreciate a pointer to the
study.

--

John Fleming
Edmonton, Alberta

email:     johnfgh@nice.ab.ca (nice should be ecn, remove 'gh')
web pages: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/6070
           http://www.ecn.ab.ca/~johnf

- Only if you have been in the deepest valley can you
  ever know how  magnificent it is to be on the highest
  mountain.

                                   R.M.Nixon  1913-1994

This message may be freely copied, distributed, or
otherwise be retransmitted.

🚀 go-pugleaf

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