🚀 go-pugleaf

Serveral other studies concurr with the one you quoted.
I agree that graduating students seem to be having more trouble finding work
this year than earlier.
The only thing that I have noticed that could explain this is that the BIG
companies are holding back, trying to get more lean.  There seems to be jobs
in smaller compaines, which do not have the HR facilities that the larger ones
do, and a lot of these positions seem to get advertized and filled through the
grapevine.
I still think there are still a lot of economic opportunities in the computer
science/techonology field.  Get together a few people with a knack for the
technology, someone with a head for business, and some capital; the sky is the
limit...

--
|Ralph Doncaster, Acadia Univ.     ph & fax: (902)542-3010      |
|880274d@aucs.acadiau.ca   ASU box 6585, Wolfville, NS B0P 1Z1  |

In article <870086t.702698756@aucs> 870086t@aucs.acadiau.ca (Shannon Tremblay) writes:
> .............            ..............          ...................
>In the article it is suggested that there is currently a shortage of software
>workers that could reach over 14000 by 1995.
>
>It goes on to suggest that 12000 to 14000 more jobs will be available to people
>in the software industry by 1995.
>
>****
>
>MY QUESTION IS THIS
>
>As a graduating student with a BCS and 16 months of Co-op experience behind
>me and no job waiting for me at present;  I question the accuracy of these
>statements.  I know of a number of students here on campus, also graduating
>that are asking the same questions.
>If there is a shortage of workers, then WHY can we not get jobs.
>
As a practitioner with 2 years of telecommunications and 15+ years 
of hardware and software experience (I am 40) I feel that there 
is always scarcity of good, knowledgeable, cheap engineers and 
computer scientists :-)

I graduated in a period very similar to the present one, during a recession
(after the Kippur War and the consequent oil embargo). There were projections
of an engineering shortage of 150,000 units in 5 years...However, nobody
wanted to hire a new grad and everybody was looking for 5 years of experience
at a new grad's salary :-) Eventualy, for those of us who remained in 
engineering, enduring a couple of though years, the microprocessor boom came
and we came in high demand.

Not knowing anything about micros, I accepted a job paid 25% below the going
new grad rate (like having a M.A.Sc., two years of RF experience, and accepting
$24,000/year today). In two years I was at the same level of my manager
(12 years older than me).

To make long story short, the employers's point of view is that there is a
shortage of competent, knowledgeable, experienced, etc. professionals
at $32,000/year. In a sense they are right: if one has 5 years of UNIX and
C, 2 or 3 years of multitasking and real-time, 2 or 3 years of data comms,
one does not want to be paid $32,000-35,000/years. Thus, there is a 
shortage ...:-)

Employers want a favorable supply & demand situation.

Things in  edmonton are quite tight.  Calgary is mostly laying off people.
I'm staying put in my job for a bit.

Andrei Chichak
c/o the above address

The CS job market only *appears* to be tight right now because of the
recession.  I suspect that as soon as employers start turning a buck
at a faster rate employment will once again pick up.  By way of 
comparison, I am currently finishing my PhD in theoretical physics
and as soon as I am done, I will be looking for a job in software
because there are NO jobs in physics.  Part of the problem with cs
jobs is that there are a lot of people like me around who slop over
from other fields to pollute your job market.
		Kevin

870086t@aucs.acadiau.ca (Shannon Tremblay @ Acadia University) once wrote....
>
>
>I recently read an article in "DIRECT ACCESS", March27, 1992, top of page 6;
>for those who what to check for themselves.  The article is called 
>"Crisis Situation" and speaks of a report, called "Software and National Competitiveness: Human Resource Issues and Opportunities," funded by Employment and
>Immigration Canada and co-sponsored by  CATA and CIPS.
>
>In the article it is suggested that there is currently a shortage of software
>workers that could reach over 14000 by 1995.
>
>It goes on to suggest that 12000 to 14000 more jobs will be available to people
>in the software industry by 1995.
>
>****
>
>MY QUESTION IS THIS
>
>As a graduating student with a BCS and 16 months of Co-op experience behind
>me and no job waiting for me at present;  I question the accuracy of these
>statements.  I know of a number of students here on campus, also graduating
>that are asking the same questions.
>If there is a shortage of workers, then WHY can we not get jobs.
>
>What is the sensus for the rest of the country?  Are the jobs available?
>Am I simply looking in the wrong places?
>
>Based on the numbers from the article I read, I would expect companies to 
>be breaking down the doors trying to hire graduating students.
>
>
>Be sure to post your replys as there must be others asking the same questions.
>
>
>
>
>
Hope to hear from you all   :-)
>
>Shannon Tremblay
>graduating class May, 1992
>               (at least I hope so :-) :-)
>
>Acadia University
>Wolfville, NS
>
>

I met with some students from Humber College a few weeks ago. They echoed
your sentiments. I asked them what they were being taught : it was typical
*large data processing environment* concepts, with COBOL and RPG.

What are companies looking for? People who can program in C; people who
can put together applications using API's; people who can integrate
Novell networks and other assorted stuff.....

Somehow, the educational system is relying on the curriculum of the 80's
and Corporate Canada has moved into the 90's.

I understand I am probably opening up some flames here. However, I regularly
see companies looking for network specialists, PC skills, integration 
skills, etc.

I see fewer companies looking for traditional DP mindsets....

jc

----
        ____     ___ ___       Jim Carroll, J.A. Carroll Consulting
          / /\  /   /          Mississauga, Canada   jcarroll@jacc.com
         / /__\/   /           Voice/Fax             +1.416.274.5605 
     \__/ /    \___\___        MCI, Bix              JCarroll   
                               Envoy 100             JA.CARROLL              

870086t@aucs.acadiau.ca (Shannon Tremblay) writes:

>In the article it is suggested that there is currently a shortage of software
>workers that could reach over 14000 by 1995.

there's probably also a shortage of money to fill the shortage of people.

In article <1992Apr8.130314.2201@helios.physics.utoronto.ca>
  dooley@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Kevin Dooley) writes:

>........................................................By way of 
>comparison, I am currently finishing my PhD in theoretical physics
>and as soon as I am done, I will be looking for a job in software
>because there are NO jobs in physics.  Part of the problem with cs
>jobs is that there are a lot of people like me around who slop over
>from other fields to pollute your job market.


I believe that most of the jobs are going to be for people who have
degrees in something else, but also know their way around a computer.

Discount prices for PCs and the like have now reached the point where
they are comparable to the price you would pay for a good circular
saw.
Software prices aren't much different.
This cannot help but change the way people regard computers. They are
now just tools, and (except for the large companies in the mass
market - Microsoft et. al.) what is wanted is someone who knows how to
use the tool for medical/accounting/astronomical/etc. purposes.

Or at least that is my rationalisation for the fact that I can't even
get interviews despite having worked on minis and mainframes for about
25 years. (Being 54 and not possessing a degree in anything doesn't
help, of course, but it still seems to me that the entire nature of
the business has changed).


-- 
                      | He had bought a large map representing the sea,
Roy Millar            | Without the least vestige of land,
                      | And the crew were much pleased when they found it to be
                      | A map they could all understand.  - L. Carroll.

In article <8181-PCNews-124beta@jacc.com> jcarroll@jacc.com (Jim Carroll) writes:


   I met with some students from Humber College a few weeks ago. They echoed
   your sentiments. I asked them what they were being taught : it was typical
   *large data processing environment* concepts, with COBOL and RPG.

   What are companies looking for? People who can program in C; people who
   can put together applications using API's; people who can integrate
   Novell networks and other assorted stuff.....

   Somehow, the educational system is relying on the curriculum of the 80's
   and Corporate Canada has moved into the 90's.

I think it has a lot to do with the recession.

University and colleges by their nature will never be in sync with
corporate needs. C is just yet another programming language (and not a
very good one at that for anything other than system programming.
There are much better ones.). Specific skills such as integrating
Novell networks becomes obsolete even faster than Cobol because they
are based on a specific technology.

Many companies have specific needs which will never be met by any
university. Who else in the world cares about a language named Protel
and a telephone switch named DMS besides BNR.

   I understand I am probably opening up some flames here. However, I regularly
   see companies looking for network specialists, PC skills, integration 
   skills, etc.

I think the situation for the community college grads could be worse than
university grads. The community college grads that I have met/worked
with, generally (There are exceptions so no flames please), are not as
"well rounded". They will know how to program in specific languages or
use specific DBMS packages but lacks the conceptual grasp of issues of
high-level S/W design. Once they made a switch in their mindset to S/W
design rather than coding or testing, which was painful for some, they
usually did OK.

There appears to be a failing in the curriculum of the community
college to teach S/W engineering skills rather than, in general, the
failing of the students. My profs (the good ones) always told me that 
they never cared what methodology/language we learned. They just want
to make sure we can think.
--

Spencer Cheng     scheng@BNR.CA  Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada  613-763-4046

In article <8181-PCNews-124beta@jacc.com> jcarroll@jacc.com writes:
>870086t@aucs.acadiau.ca (Shannon Tremblay @ Acadia University) once wrote....
>>
>>
>>I recently read an article in "DIRECT ACCESS", March27, 1992, top of page 6;
>>for those who what to check for themselves.  The article is called 
>>"Crisis Situation" and speaks of a report, called "Software and National Competitiveness: Human Resource Issues and Opportunities," funded by Employment and
>>Immigration Canada and co-sponsored by  CATA and CIPS.
>>
>>In the article it is suggested that there is currently a shortage of software
>>workers that could reach over 14000 by 1995.
>>
>>
>>****
>>
>>MY QUESTION IS THIS
>>
>>What is the sensus for the rest of the country?  Are the jobs available?
>>Am I simply looking in the wrong places?
>>
>>Based on the numbers from the article I read, I would expect companies to 
>>be breaking down the doors trying to hire graduating students.
>>
>>
>
>What are companies looking for? People who can program in C; people who
>can put together applications using API's; people who can integrate
>Novell networks and other assorted stuff.....
>
>Somehow, the educational system is relying on the curriculum of the 80's
>and Corporate Canada has moved into the 90's.
>
There was an article just last week in the Winnipeg Free Press with
stated that University weren't putting out students with the skills 
that local software houses wanted. The Universities were putting out
skills for the larger companies with mainframes etc.

I nearly puked, what a crock. After 4 years of blood and sweat you'd
think that I could pick up any skill in the universe. University
curiculums(sp) are designed to put out well rounded students who can
think and learn quickly. What's needed are training programs to bring
their skills up to the particular company's needs. I get the feeling
that most of the software shops hope that someone else will pay the
bill - either the gov. or his/her previous employer. Remember that of
all developed countries Canada spends perhaps the least amount on 
training and retraining - certainly less than the US and Japan. So whats
with Coporate Canada? I've sent out resumes where the skills requested
were a perfect match with my skills, with no reply or a polite "Thanks,
but no thanks, were looking for someone with 5 years experience." 

As for the 14000 jobs in 1995, I suspect that most of these will not be
filled, or filled by experienced foreigners (ah HAH!) :-)
At any rate, Canada will fall further and further behind in technical
skills if we don't get our act together and give recent grads training
and -at least- a chance to prove ourselves. 

>I understand I am probably opening up some flames here.
maybe just a bunsun burner ;-)

> However, I regularly
>see companies looking for network specialists, PC skills, integration 
>skills, etc. I see fewer companies looking for traditional DP mindsets....

True, the industry is slowly moving to open systems, but mainframes
and COBOL will still be around for years to come.

I hope that these comments don't ruin a chance for me to get a job 
with anyone reading this. 

Salik.
"Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor not an employment councilor!"

-- 
Now a 1/4 century old.    	     Its nice to know I'm "not a high priority".
Salik Rafiq                          At least I know where I stand!
Department of Computer Science   	    Internet:rafiq@cs.UManitoba.CA
University of Manitoba, Winnipeg,Manitoba   BITNET:rafiq@UOFMCC     ph#:474-8313

In article <8181-PCNews-124beta@jacc.com> jcarroll@jacc.com writes:
>
>I met with some students from Humber College a few weeks ago. They echoed
>your sentiments. I asked them what they were being taught : it was typical
>*large data processing environment* concepts, with COBOL and RPG.
>
>What are companies looking for? People who can program in C; people who
>can put together applications using API's; people who can integrate
>Novell networks and other assorted stuff.....
>
>Somehow, the educational system is relying on the curriculum of the 80's
>and Corporate Canada has moved into the 90's.
>
>I understand I am probably opening up some flames here. However, I regularly
>see companies looking for network specialists, PC skills, integration 
>skills, etc.
>
>I see fewer companies looking for traditional DP mindsets....
>
>jc
>
>----
>        ____     ___ ___       Jim Carroll, J.A. Carroll Consulting
>          / /\  /   /          Mississauga, Canada   jcarroll@jacc.com
>         / /__\/   /           Voice/Fax             +1.416.274.5605 
>     \__/ /    \___\___        MCI, Bix              JCarroll   
>                               Envoy 100             JA.CARROLL              

	Wait a minute, I was working for a small computer VAR in London
(well not that small) and I was selling PC's (not retail), installing
systems, networks ect...
	Are you saying that I was getting a better education there than
I am at University (BTW I'm learning C, C++ OOP).  Did I make a mistake ?
I don't think so, but if you would like to offer me a job I could
reconsider my position.   :)
	I would like to think that I am getting something of value at U.
and that I will have sellable skills in the near future,  but I look in
the paper and most ads are asking for COBAL, dBase and sometimes Clipper!
The few ads I've seen for C and C++ generally ask for significant experience
	I guess I don't know what to think.

	I would really like to hear from more employers (even if you are
not hiring) about what you think of these issues and any advice you can 
offer.

thanks in advance for replying.

Dave
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|     David Aspinall      |  NeXT Step : what windows should have been!	  |
| cs911409@ariel.yorku.ca |  OS/2 V2   : what windows should have been!   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+

In article <1992Apr9.012727.4670@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs911409@ariel.yorku.ca (RICHARD DAVID ASPINALL) writes:
>	Are you saying that I was getting a better education there than
>I am at University (BTW I'm learning C, C++ OOP).  Did I make a mistake ?
>I don't think so, but if you would like to offer me a job I could
>reconsider my position.   :)
>	I would like to think that I am getting something of value at U.
>and that I will have sellable skills in the near future,  but I look in
>the paper and most ads are asking for COBAL, dBase and sometimes Clipper!
>The few ads I've seen for C and C++ generally ask for significant experience

	Just like to add my 2c to this whole thing:

	It would appear that, in general, universities train CS students
to learn about computer science, and not 'how to program in language X'.
This is probably the best way of going about things, as learning a 
language is really a matter of getting a book and reading it.  Thus,
universities can spend their time teaching paradigms and somewhat more
important and theoretically useful things.

	However, for the most part, this isn't what corporations want,
and most people end up having to learn COBOL and dBASE...

	Kinda sad.


-- 
  storm@cs.mcgill.ca           McGill University         C program run.  Run  
  Marc Wandschneider           Montreal, CANADA          Program run! PLEASE!
Ever wonder how Worf got to be Security Officer on the Enterprise when the 
Capt gets kidnapped from the bridge every two episodes and Troy Beats him up?

Felt I ought to add my two cents worth (American):

I Co-Op'd for two years at the US NIST (National Institude of Standards
and Technology). This experience was invaluable and has given me a big
advantage over my peers ever since. WHY? I learned that to succeed in
the computer world, you had better understand as many facets of the 
field as possible - networking, operating systems, database mgmt,
programming languages, software engineering, user interface 
technologies, basic principles of the hardware. What does this give
you? FLEXIBILITY! In my experience, corporations do not what a 
button-hole fit for any specific job. They want someone with good
QUALITIEs as well as good capabilities. Qualities like initiative, 
dependability, honesty, and ability to work with many different
types of people. 

Now this is a lot to ask of anyone. In fact, in my experience most
people do not even come close. I have worked with (and for) way
too many marginal people in my career. But that is the real world
we live in. New graduates face a tough challenge - instead of being
looked at as bringing fresh thoughts, innovation, etc - they are
viewed as being cheap labor that will require a lot of EXPENSIVE
hand-holding by existing more Senior staff. This view is really
stupid and short-sighted if you ask me. After all, everyone was
new at one point or another.

So my advice to new graduates - learn as much as you can about
as much as you can, hone your people skills, accept criticisms
willingly, and maintain your self confidence. If you are a GOOD
person, people will eventually recognize you as good and place
their trust and faith in your professional views. 

Enough pontificating...

========================================================================
Steve Norman                  +             Disclaimer:
Sr. Software Engineer         +   All views are those of the Author.
Martin Marietta Astronautics  +        Feel free to disagree.
Denver, Colorado, USA         +      After all, this is the USA.
========================================================================

In article <8181-PCNews-124beta@jacc.com> jcarroll@jacc.com writes:
>870086t@aucs.acadiau.ca (Shannon Tremblay @ Acadia University) once wrote....
>>
>>
>>I recently read an article in "DIRECT ACCESS", March27, 1992, top of page 6;
>>for those who what to check for themselves.  The article is called 
>>"Crisis Situation" and speaks of a report, called "Software and National Competitiveness: Human Resource Issues and Opportunities," funded by Employment and
>>Immigration Canada and co-sponsored by  CATA and CIPS.
>>
>>In the article it is suggested that there is currently a shortage of software
>>workers that could reach over 14000 by 1995.
>>
>>It goes on to suggest that 12000 to 14000 more jobs will be available to people
>>in the software industry by 1995.
>>
>>****
>>
>>MY QUESTION IS THIS
>>
>>As a graduating student with a BCS and 16 months of Co-op experience behind
>>me and no job waiting for me at present;  I question the accuracy of these
>>statements.  I know of a number of students here on campus, also graduating
>>that are asking the same questions.
>>If there is a shortage of workers, then WHY can we not get jobs.
>>
>>What is the sensus for the rest of the country?  Are the jobs available?
>>Am I simply looking in the wrong places?
>>
>>Based on the numbers from the article I read, I would expect companies to 
>>be breaking down the doors trying to hire graduating students.
>>
>>
>>Be sure to post your replys as there must be others asking the same questions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Hope to hear from you all   :-)
>>
>>Shannon Tremblay
>>graduating class May, 1992
>>               (at least I hope so :-) :-)
>>
>>Acadia University
>>Wolfville, NS
>>
>>
>
>I met with some students from Humber College a few weeks ago. They echoed
>your sentiments. I asked them what they were being taught : it was typical
>*large data processing environment* concepts, with COBOL and RPG.
>What are companies looking for? People who can program in C; people who
>can put together applications using API's; people who can integrate
>Novell networks and other assorted stuff.....
>
 I don't know what world you are living in but frankly after doing lots
 of looking for summer jobs and talking to 'corporate canada' the things
 they want you to know are simple...Dbase and Cobol. Dbase more than
 anything, they couldn't give a damn about any theory you might know.
 Oh, they kind of appreciate Clipper and they consider FoxPro to be
 exotic and have never even heard of lisp. C will do you well too but
 nothing like Dbase. So... if you want a job go to one of those job
 grindmills that advertise about 'your futur in software programming'
 where they will spend the entire time teaching you Dbase, lotus and 
 workperfect.

>Somehow, the educational system is relying on the curriculum of the 80's
>and Corporate Canada has moved into the 90's.

	Hardly. 
>
Troy


-- 
*****************************************************************
--Your naive idiocy makes me very angry -- Job (The Lawnmower man)
"I want to lie Shipwrecked and comatose, drinking fresh mango juice"
--Part of Themesong to Red Dwarf

troye@cs.mcgill.ca (Troy ENGLISH) writes:
> I don't know what world you are living in but frankly after doing lots
> of looking for summer jobs and talking to 'corporate canada' the things
> they want you to know are simple...Dbase and Cobol. Dbase more than
> anything, they couldn't give a damn about any theory you might know.

Troy: I would both agree and DISAGREE with whatyou say. Yes, one should
study COBOL and Sys Analysis/Design as well as C++. Round out your CS
education as well as your degree in general (just like taking electives
from other disciplines.) COBOL may not be sexy, but it pays the bills
for a lot of people.
However, for a long term view of your career, get that degree. The 
graduates of "dbase schools" will be limited in career progression.
Unless you picture yourself at age 55 doing dbase (or the 21st century
equiv) instead of being the boss, then forsake a degree for a short
term goal of an immediate job. If you think competition for a job
is tough, think about promotions.
--
Don Tyzuk
841613t@aucs.acadiau.ca
Wolfville, Nova Scotia

In article <1992Apr9.204810.16255@den.mmc.com> norman@possum.den.mmc.com (Steve Norman) writes:
>Felt I ought to add my two cents worth (American):
>
>I Co-Op'd for two years at the US NIST (National Institude of Standards
>and Technology). This experience was invaluable and has given me a big
>advantage over my peers ever since. WHY? I learned that to succeed in
>the computer world, you had better understand as many facets of the 
>field as possible - networking, operating systems, database mgmt,
>programming languages, software engineering, user interface 
>technologies, basic principles of the hardware. What does this give
>you? FLEXIBILITY! In my experience, corporations do not what a 
>button-hole fit for any specific job. They want someone with good
>QUALITIEs as well as good capabilities. Qualities like initiative, 
>dependability, honesty, and ability to work with many different
>types of people. 
>
>Now this is a lot to ask of anyone. In fact, in my experience most
>people do not even come close. I have worked with (and for) way
>too many marginal people in my career. But that is the real world
>we live in. New graduates face a tough challenge - instead of being
>looked at as bringing fresh thoughts, innovation, etc - they are
>viewed as being cheap labor that will require a lot of EXPENSIVE
>hand-holding by existing more Senior staff. This view is really
>stupid and short-sighted if you ask me. After all, everyone was
>new at one point or another.
>
>So my advice to new graduates - learn as much as you can about
>as much as you can, hone your people skills, accept criticisms
>willingly, and maintain your self confidence. If you are a GOOD
>person, people will eventually recognize you as good and place
>their trust and faith in your professional views. 
>
>Enough pontificating...
>
>========================================================================
>Steve Norman                  +             Disclaimer:
>Sr. Software Engineer         +   All views are those of the Author.
>Martin Marietta Astronautics  +        Feel free to disagree.
>Denver, Colorado, USA         +      After all, this is the USA.
>========================================================================


I have to agree.  I found a quote from a Heinlein book that I think is
appropriate to this line of thought and have tried to follow its philosphy.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a
hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a
wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act
alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.

Specialization is for insects.

Lazarus Long

In article <1992Apr9.012727.4670@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca>, cs911409@ariel.yorku.ca (RICHARD DAVID ASPINALL) writes:

|> 	I would like to think that I am getting something of value at U.
|> and that I will have sellable skills in the near future,  but I look in
|> the paper and most ads are asking for COBAL, dBase and sometimes Clipper!
|> The few ads I've seen for C and C++ generally ask for significant experience
|> 	I guess I don't know what to think.
|> 

You have to realize that the majority of job openings are never
advertised, they are obtained through contacts, friends, and
perserverance.  Don't look at the paper and extrapolate that all the
jobs available are the same.

The jobs that are advertised are IMHO generally ones that are hard to
fill or no-one wants them.  In some cases the employer is asking too much
(20 years experience in D, C++ and Hyperspace control systems ;-) that
no-one could ever qualify for.

These opinions are mine and not necessarily those of my employer.
-- 

...fraser

"We're going to need another Timmy" 
- Mr. Lizard

In article <1992Apr9.212406.14502@cs.mcgill.ca> troye@cs.mcgill.ca (Troy ENGLISH) writes:
> I don't know what world you are living in but frankly after doing lots
> of looking for summer jobs and talking to 'corporate canada' the things
> they want you to know are simple...Dbase and Cobol. Dbase more than
> anything, they couldn't give a damn about any theory you might know.
> Oh, they kind of appreciate Clipper and they consider FoxPro to be
> exotic and have never even heard of lisp. C will do you well too but
> nothing like Dbase. So... if you want a job go to one of those job
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> grindmills that advertise about 'your futur in software programming'
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> where they will spend the entire time teaching you Dbase, lotus and 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> workperfect.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry, can't pass this one by...

    If you want a career then make sure that you get a proper education.
If you just want a job then you're probably in the wrong field.  Also,
do you REALLY want to work for an employer who can't see beyond your
immediate skills to see the potential that you offer?

    Before I get flamed too much, I should point out that I realize that
the economy isn't exactly running on all cylinders.  As a consequence,
it probably makes a lot of sense to optimize some things in the short term.
Just don't forget that five or ten years from now, you might get tired
of your job and wish that you had optimized your career.  In my humble
opinion, in the computing field, optimizing your career starts with a
University education.

Nuf said.

P.S. I've got 13 years of experience since I graduated with by BSc in
computing.  I've done a lot of crazy things.  Practically none of them
would have been possible without a University education.  On the other hand,
I don't make anywhere near as much or do as interesting things (from their
perspective) as a lot of people without University training.

>
>>Somehow, the educational system is relying on the curriculum of the 80's
>>and Corporate Canada has moved into the 90's.
>
>	Hardly. 
>>
>Troy
>
>
>-- 
>*****************************************************************
>--Your naive idiocy makes me very angry -- Job (The Lawnmower man)
>"I want to lie Shipwrecked and comatose, drinking fresh mango juice"
>--Part of Themesong to Red Dwarf

> In article <8181-PCNews-124beta@jacc.com> jcarroll@jacc.com (Jim Carroll) writes:
> 
> 
>    I met with some students from Humber College a few weeks ago. They echoed
>    your sentiments. I asked them what they were being taught : it was typical
>    *large data processing environment* concepts, with COBOL and RPG.
> 
>    What are companies looking for? People who can program in C; people who
>    can put together applications using API's; people who can integrate
>    Novell networks and other assorted stuff.....
> 
>    Somehow, the educational system is relying on the curriculum of the 80's
>    and Corporate Canada has moved into the 90's.
> 

Guess you were talking to the wrong students from Humber College.  I'm  a
professor in the Computer Engineering Department at Humber.  My students
program in C from the beginning of 2nd year, take courses in Real Time,
work under DOS, VMS and several flavours of Unix etc.  They also work with
networks and systems in a technical sense: programming, managing and debuggin
hardware and software (certainly trainable to Novell CNE).  We also do some 
work with API's ie: DOS interrupts, ORACLE (though we had to drop the C to
ORACLE exercise this year because of time constraints - it'll be back).
Last year we introduced the Whitewater Resource Toolkit for Windows;  this
year we did some Windows programming into the Graphics course and intro'd
RESEDIT for the Mac.   Data structures are introduced as if the student were
writing their own API for that data type.  We also have a 2nd year Software
Engineering/Systems Analysis Course as well.  So we're getting there.

    Please remember that our lead times for introducing material is different
than yours.  Texts have to be ordered half a semester before the start of
a term, and evaluated before that; material has to be tried out - a community
college has to give its students marketable skills ie:  I'm fully aware
that programming Windows/X/MAC OS/OS//2 has a 6 months learning curve -
I've got to make the student productive over a single 15 week course.
So, last year my 2nd year Software Project Course was using Unix Curses
(with some students opting for a PC windowing API knowing I did not have
time to support it) while introducing Windows to 3rd year.  Over time the
material should migrate down.

    I should add that we are buried somewhere near the back of the college
calendar -  I'm sure that staff at the registrar's office a) Think we
teach computer repair (we do - by osmosis - if a student breaks something,
finds a problem, they ask around and fix it)  b) Think of the business
division courses first.  We also have fewer students - First year has
150 applicants but they are only allowing one class of 35 students.
(Sigh )-:) However we do have openings for students in the 2nd year
because of 1st year attrition.       

BTW:  Note that you wear a label of "consultant".   In general I don't 
recommend to my students that they apply to consulting or headhunting
firms for the first two years out of school.  I feel its important to
get their feet wet as a "regular" employee in order to find out their 
abilities.  We also don't teach COBOL or business programming:  they can
use a spreadsheet and BS a Cost-Benefit Analysis but know nothing about
bookkeeping. 

king@feline.uucp (KingLeon @ Humber College Technology Dept.) once wrote....
>> In article <8181-PCNews-124beta@jacc.com> jcarroll@jacc.com (Jim Carroll) writes:
>> 
>> 
>>    I met with some students from Humber College a few weeks ago. They echoed
>>    your sentiments. I asked them what they were being taught : it was typical
>
>Guess you were talking to the wrong students from Humber College.  I'm  a
>professor in the Computer Engineering Department at Humber.  My students
>program in C from the beginning of 2nd year, take courses in Real Time,
>[material deleted]

>    Please remember that our lead times for introducing material is different
>than yours.  Texts have to be ordered half a semester before the start of
>[material deleted]
>
>    I should add that we are buried somewhere near the back of the college
>calendar -  I'm sure that staff at the registrar's office a) Think we
>teach computer repair (we do - by osmosis - if a student breaks something,
>finds a problem, they ask around and fix it)  b) Think of the business
>[material deleted]

I understand what you are trying to accomplish and applaud you for it. 
Obviously, the group that I spoke to were in a different stream.

To respond to all the comments that have gone through this thread : 
currently, I am dealing with a client that has been using a so-called 
'system integrator'. The integrator has been singularly unable to go 
through the simple process of plugging together two different LAN base 
mail environments. The integrator has not been effective at supporting 
an office environment consisting of 20-25 PC's, in a Novell LAN, with 
about 10 different applications. Nothing complex. And for this type of 
activity, the firm is now looking for options for support, which could 
come from a new integrator or in-house support. Hence, that is the type
of job that seems to be in demand : I see this as a common need in many
organizations.

It seems that we are at a point that this new 'client/server' environment
demands the types of skills that you refer to in your note : if something
breaks down, companies need someone to be able to fix it. If something needs
to be connected, they need someone to be able to connect it. If something
needs to be developed using tools on the market, they need someone to
develop it.

This calls for a wide ranging skill set : and one that is not easily 
obtained without a lot of experience. I think that the skills for this 
type of environment don't exist in a large way, and will evolve over time.
Basically, it involves the application of analytical skills and 
technical knowledge to solve particular problems in these interconnected
environments.

I think that the type of people you are putting through your course will
be the ideal mindset for the type of problems that I am seeing in organizations.
I only hope that other institutions (and even your own) begin to pursue
this environment to a greater degree....

(And before I am inundated with memos about this particular client of
mine, they are in the process of trying out another 'integrator', to see
if they have more technical and analytical knowledge than the current
one...)
                                        

>BTW:  Note that you wear a label of "consultant".   In general I don't 
>recommend to my students that they apply to consulting or headhunting
>firms for the first two years out of school.  I feel its important to
>get their feet wet as a "regular" employee in order to find out their 
>abilities.  We also don't teach COBOL or business programming:  they can
>use a spreadsheet and BS a Cost-Benefit Analysis but know nothing about
>bookkeeping. 

I am a Chartered Accountant, with 12 years in the large firm corporate
world, with 8 years of indepth technology work during that time. I too 
don't recommend that someone try to start out as a consultant : after all, 
a consultant only **sells their experience** to others...

jc

----
        ____     ___ ___       Jim Carroll, J.A. Carroll Consulting
          / /\  /   /          Mississauga, Canada   jcarroll@jacc.com
         / /__\/   /           Voice/Fax             +1.416.274.5605 
     \__/ /    \___\___        MCI, Bix              JCarroll   
                               Envoy 100             JA.CARROLL              

> 
> |> 	I would like to think that I am getting something of value at U.
> |> and that I will have sellable skills in the near future,  but I look in
> |> the paper and most ads are asking for COBAL, dBase and sometimes Clipper!
> |> The few ads I've seen for C and C++ generally ask for significant experience
> |> 	I guess I don't know what to think.
> |> 

I don't know, but when I look through the ads in our Sunday paper, under Computer
and under Technical, I see lots of calls for C and C++, and for Oracle and for
GUI programmers. And the job shops always have work for these programmers, and often
require less experience. (The job shops are places like Comsys and Volt and TAD 
Technical, etc., that are temporary agencies for programmers, engineers and
tech writers.)

> 
> 
> The jobs that are advertised are IMHO generally ones that are hard to
> fill or no-one wants them.  In some cases the employer is asking too much
> (20 years experience in D, C++ and Hyperspace control systems ;-) that
> no-one could ever qualify for.
> 

Not always so. A lot of places advertise internally for two weeks and then if
nobody inhouse wants the job, they advertise outside. But, yes, they do seem to
often expect more experience than is possible, especially for the salary they
advertise. Just because they want somebody with a certain degree and so many
years of experience doesn't mean they won't take something else. If you think
your background prepares you for the job, answer the ad. I've been on the hiring
side and almost nobody fits an ad's requirements exactly, but people with relevant
and interesting backgrounds do get called in for interviews without having exactly
what the ad asked for. Once you're in the interview, it's up to you to convince
the interviewer you can do the job.


Mindy in Phoenix
-- 
*****************************************************************************************
Mindy Machanic  (AG Communication Systems/Quality Engineering, Phoenix, AZ)               
UUCP: ....!{ncar!noao!asuvax | att}!gtephx!machanicm       FAX: (602) 52-7111
Internet: gtephx!machanicm@asuvax.eas.asu.edu              Voice: (602) 582-7374