🚀 go-pugleaf

Suggested response:

"Eliminating all hyphenation requires substantial manual intervention
and manipulation of text lines and possibly necessitates the rewriting
of content. This is not part of our standard package, and the 
estimated cost will be three times our original quote."

You might also show how it is physically impossible. The word 
antidisestablishmentarianism comes to mind.

  - Herb

Good thing that your "client" doesn't have a thing about "colons" - otherwise you would be subjecting your documents to colonoscopies!

- Dov

OUCH!

Sadly I get this request all too frequently. I used to resist but over time 
I've learned to accept the old adage "the client is always right". I usually 
give education one honest effort then just set inDesign to no hyphens and 
let 'er rip! Occasionally they listen to reason, but not often.

Sheila 

Sometimes just showing the insistent client a page or two set HIS way and then the same pages set "the better" way, giving him a chance to compare the two will get him to change his mind. It sometimes works. Really!

Other times, you just take the money and run to the bank with it; then on to the next project!

Neil

Herb, 

      Eliminating all hyphenation requires substantial manual intervention and
      manipulation of text lines...




I don't know that I would charge a premium for setting copy this way, unless it is a reset after his review.

Neil

All right, I'll bite, I don't like hyphens. I only use them if a client makes me. I find them clunky, and a leftover of manual type setting days when letters were little bits of metal that either all fit in a row or didn't. With kerning, width control and all the other nifties we have now I don't see any reason to go hashing words in two.

Heather,

Sure, digitally you can get any line of type to fit a measure -- but sometimes at the expense of readability, type "color", and consistency with the rest of the page. The rules of good typography haven't changed all that much since the days of machine and foundry type.

I would sooner see the occasional hyphenated line if it maintains a consistent appearance, line to line, than a large hole at the end of the line, open letterspacing, vertical rivers between the type, or adjacent letters tripping all over each other.

Neil

Neil, I concur on things with small columns, like newsprint for example, but you don't end up with any of those issues you mentioned in body copy of wider widths. I'm not saying you take one line to 74% width to make it fit. I'm talking overall adjustment for space. I find getting a 'hanger' up etc. usually only takes a fine adjustment, .5% or less. Mostly I mean brochures, catalog pages etc. I find hyphens in such small amount of copy distracting and (personal opinion based on my own aesthetic) it makes me assume the designer didn't take much time. If upping the point size .1 pt, adjusting width by .2%, gets me a nice even, non-hyphenated sleek looking piece of body copy, I think it's worth the extra five minutes of adjustments and soft returns.
I also concur that this particular project is probably going to end up looking badly for all the reasons you mentioned on an 8 page, 3 column grid. I was just chiming in-defense of not wanting/liking hyphens. Weird to be backing up a client, kind of like waking up in the neighbors house. Anyway.
If the client was truly against hyphens I would suggest that this issue is out, but next issue switch to a 2 column where it will be easier to accomplish without looking foul.
It's why we get paid the "big bucks" (LOL), taking the random incongruent wants desires needs and resources of the client and making something that still looks professional and appealing.

Heather,

In advertising, I will actually rewrite copy or adjust the layout (including column width and font size or leading) to avoid hyphens in the art. So for that kind of type layout, we're in agreement.

But in a three-column newsletter layout -- sometimes even a two-column layout -- and particularly if long names or scientific and technical terms (or languages like German) are used, it is difficult to avoid occasional hyphenation. Used discreetly, I have no issue with it. And oftentimes, we are simply not paid enough by the client to spend the time to finesse the copy this way.

So, how often have you mysteriously awakened in your neighbor's house? <lol>

Neil

"So, how often have you mysteriously awakened in your neighbor's house? <lol> "

So far I haven't :), but I'd imagine it to be something akin to the feeling of defending the "same people" who for instance, recently insisted I change the headers of all text in their brochure to 18 pt Arial, cause it looks more "professional". Sigh.
Hyphens have there place, I think we pretty much agree on there place.
I also agree on not varying blocks of course. When I make adjustments I do it until it "universally" works etc.

Heather, 

      cause it looks more "professional".




The question begs: more professional than...what? <g>

Basically, I think you and I agree about the basics of hyphenation. But for me, we are not willing to spend too much of our own time finessing something that the client neither appreciates nor is willing to pay for.

...On to the next project!

Neil

One also has to consider that as designers we train our eyes to find things, and soon those things start to "pop out" to us in a way that doesn't occur to the regular reader. We have to differeniate things that we don't like from things that actually cause the reader to slow down.

For instance, I don't think that readers are slowed by a single hyphen (except at the end of a recto page). But if there are three in a row (or more) then you might have the reader's eye stop and look at this pattern. A designer or editor might discover a "river of white" that would be unnoticeable by a reader ... normally dangerous rivers only happen when formed by a gap of over-wide spaces.

A reader won't usually mind if slanted roman is used for italics, but a typographer will shudder. Even the curly quotes are pretty much an affectation of the typographer. We consider straight quotes to be wrong, but the user doesn't, and will read over them as if they were correct.

It is nice to make it look nice, but sometimes doing this is too costly.

For me I guess it's the perception thing I'm always trying to fight, and inspires me. I work for a small printing firm as the sole graphic designer, prepress personnel, web designer, and unfortunately as we are currently under staffed and fighting back from slow business after Katrina, front counter help. I also look about ten years younger than I am, which doesn't help. I have a BFA from SCAD, I worked for a huge subsidiary of HM after college. I've been doing graphic design for eight-nine years now, which is not LONG time, but a good chunk. Unfortunately we still get the perception from some of our clients that we're JUST printers, and when they need a new brochure yadda-yadda designed they need to go to a giant graphics design firm. I worked in the giant "corporate" environment and it made me miserable. I like small, I like complete control. I also like a regular paycheck and cannot ever envision being able to feel comfortable with freelance. Still I get the "well if you were any good you wouldn't be working HERE" attitude. So, when I get the opportunity to win some business, I kind of go all out. So far, through rush jobs we've snagged, we've won some major design business over the past few years. On big new orders, that we're trying to get more business from, I often spend more time designing than was billed. But I understand we also have to benefit of making up for that in the printing/finishing price that some do not. So far, any company of designed something for, has had us design future items they've needed printed, which is good. The challenge for me is getting them to give me the work in the first place. "What? You're the graphic designer? But you just ran my copies..." Ah well.

Some passing comments: 

      A reader won't usually mind if slanted roman is used for italics, but
      a typographer will shudder. Even the curly quotes are pretty much an affectation
      of the typographer. We consider straight quotes to be wrong, but the user
      doesn't, and will read over them as if they were correct.




And many folks just can't perceive the difference between really great art and a painting of six dogs playing poker done on black velvet. Or what is top-notch talent and what merely passes for talent (OK, on a high-school level) on any of these "American Idol"-style programs that are (for me) an exasperating waste of the airwaves. Or great fashion statements v unflattering "fashion" trends. You get the idea.

But we, as knowledgeable creative professionals, are in the position of being keepers of the flame and are responsible for spreading the word (to as many new designers as possible) what makes good design, good typography, good photography, good copy, et al.

That said, sometimes time and economics just don't let that play out in every project we tackle. We're largely commercial artists -- sometimes spelled with a capital "K". But at least we know the difference between good and bad. And we can apply that knowledge wherever and whenever we can.

Neil

      I also look about ten years younger than I am, which doesn't help




Don't worry about it. Another 10 years in this business and you will look 10 years older than your age.

Not so, Neal ... I am easily confused for a man ... well, a man as old as you. :)

And I am glad I'm not dealing with that exchange rate thing. When I was working for tight-fisted US publishers paying $25 an hour, that used to convert into a nice $35-$40 an hour. Now it would be a little tighter.

US $1.00 = Can $1.07, give or take. The current poor performance of the US dollar is a key reason my wife and I don't travel overseas now. But we drove into Canada (staying near the border) for one day while we were vacationing in New Hampshire and Vermont this past week. I know metrics well enough that I didn't bother converting my car's electronic speedometer to km/h. And I only exchanged about $20 for some pocket change. But my poor knowledge of French sure got a good workout!

But I digress.

Neil

Thanks for the words of encouragement :)