🚀 go-pugleaf

On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:58:39 -0600, pvb@monarch.net wrote:
>If the DeLorean is on the side of the road, with no owner, no one would give a
>rat's ass if it was taken.
>Surely not the ex owners of the former, now defunct company
>They relinquish that right when they go broke or out of business.
>PV Beveren LLB

Woot!  Woot! I like that one! That is the BEST one I have heard so
far. Good one PV!!! :) 

Damn... there is a smart person is this thread!

/*Raj*/

In article <3d12jusoim1kmm51v9j2p27528s85380bv@4ax.com>, Raj wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:58:39 -0600, pvb@monarch.net wrote:
> >If the DeLorean is on the side of the road, with no owner, no one would give a
> >rat's ass if it was taken.
> >Surely not the ex owners of the former, now defunct company
> >They relinquish that right when they go broke or out of business.
> >PV Beveren LLB
> 
> Woot!  Woot! I like that one! That is the BEST one I have heard so
> far. Good one PV!!! :) 
> 
> Damn... there is a smart person is this thread!

Yep, sure is... If you find a fully licensed legal copy of Pagestream4 
on the side of the road, you have every right to keep it.

:)

-- 
Doughnuts are my downfall

Thats all i got to say, im afraid.
doktor lorenz

"Joona I Palaste" <palaste@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:afuvh6$fd3$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> James H <hastie@smartchat.net.au> scribbled the following
> on comp.sys.amiga.games:
> > Alfred, go get fucked, get a life and learn how to spell.
>
> Says the man who only capitalises a proper name or the first word in a
> sentence once in a blue moon. But hey, do as I say, don't do as I do,
> right?
>
> (Insults snipped)
>
> --
> /-- Joona Palaste (palaste@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
> | Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
> | http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste       W++ B OP+                     |
> \----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
> "'It can be easily shown that' means 'I saw a proof of this once (which I
didn't
> understand) which I can no longer remember'."
>    - A maths teacher

Lemming wrote:

> "John Burns" <joobs@free-online.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I agree about the browser but then you don't have a decent mailer or
> >newsreader.  HeHe. Not forgetting all those "undocumented features" of the
> >OS which make it possible for the most feable of lamers to infect your system
> >with virii.
>
> Oh, I don't know;  I like Agent, personally, for both news and email.

I've tried and tried to like that program, but it's just impossible. Until the
next version of Opera comes out, I'm using Netscape.

>
> When are you going to register your copy of Thor, BTW?
>
> Windows has many vulnerabilities but interestingly enough the first
> virus I ever came across was for the Amiga.

Umm.. so?? Might that possibly be because you owned an Amiga before you got a PC?
:-)

>  If there aren't many new
> viruses being written nowadays it's probably because even the virus
> writers recognise the Amiga is a dead platform.

Well, virus writers are pretty stupid, you know.

Joachim

Raj <raj@intelstarbase-01.net> wrote:

> No company + No support + No enforcement of the IP == Abandonware

Yeah, sure; only because the company doesn't exist anymore (or does not 
produce the software anymore, many companies that made Amiga games are 
still in business) doesn't mean there's noone who holds the copyright.
And what about companies like Cinemaware? They went down but now they are 
here again, does it mean you was allowed to copy the software for years but 
now it isn't abandonware anymore?!

> DeLorean's are still manufactured and supported by the manufacturer.
> Silly argument.

Oh, you are living in a timezone twenty years ago?

http://www.delorean-owners.org/legend/
"Only 8,583 DeLoreans were manufactured in 1981, 1982, and 1983: 6,539, 
1,126, and 918, respectively."
"Another reason you don't see many DeLoreans on the road is the unfounded 
fear that service and parts are unavailable for a car that ceased 
manufacturing 15 years ago."

There's noone building DeLoreans anymore, for a long, long time. There may 
be a company that bought the name but they are making no cars.

So please be carefull before you call someone silly, I bet the last 
Delorean was produced long before you was born...

Ciao, Alfred

Raj <raj@intelstarbase-01.net> wrote:

> So?! Who cares... Automobiles has nothing to do in this thread.

Great, that's a very good argument for pirating software.

Ciao, Alfred

pvb@monarch.net wrote:

> If the DeLorean is on the side of the road, with no owner, no one would
> give a rat's ass if it was taken.

How do you know it has no owner? Is there a sign on it "Take me home, I'm 
homeless"? This would be the same as if a company says you are allowed to 
copy their software.
Only because you do not see anybody looking for the car (software) this 
doesn't mean it doesn't belong to someone.

Ciao, Alfred

Troy Parker <tparker66@nc.rr.com> wrote:

> Yep, sure is... If you find a fully licensed legal copy of Pagestream4 
> on the side of the road, you have every right to keep it.

Nope, you haven't, and you do not have the right to keep money that you 
find on the road. You should bring it to the lost-property office and if 
noone wants it you may be allowed to keep it.
Maybe this was some new information for you?!

Ciao, Alfred

In article <Xns924C721849172AlfredPSchwarzkerckh@134.176.2.249>, Alfred 
Schwarz wrote:
> Troy Parker <tparker66@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> > Yep, sure is... If you find a fully licensed legal copy of Pagestream4 
> > on the side of the road, you have every right to keep it.

(but you still can't copy it :)

> Nope, you haven't, and you do not have the right to keep money that you 
> find on the road. You should bring it to the lost-property office and if 
> noone wants it you may be allowed to keep it.
> Maybe this was some new information for you?!

Lost property office? The closest thing we have here is the local 
police department, who only take in items of identifiable-estate, 
personal items, items worth at least $100 and items that can be 
physically identified as being owned, ie: has a name on it.

This analogy is growing roots.

-- 
Doughnuts are my downfall

On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 16:15:49 GMT, Troy Parker <tparker66@nc.rr.com>
wrote:

>
>Who's talking about only "Amiga" software? You should read the thread 
>to find out which side your on, as it's not limited to anything, the 
>person I was responding to supports "All Piracy" in all forms.
>
>"All Piracy"
>
>When you've read that, and his hatred of programmers, then and only 
>then, come back and tell me you still agree with him.
>

Ok, I didn't read the thread :)

I don't know why he would hate programmers? But as for piracy, I
support piracy for the poor, the middle and upper classes must pay
though.

I'll speak no more on the subject :)

On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:45:55 +0100, "Lando" <bill@microsoft.com> wrote:


>> I the hell pirates shareware? Absolutly no one.
>
>Probably 99.9% of people?
>Or are you trying to tell me that all those people with WinZip installed on
>their machines have registered it?

Hehhee good point. 1 for you....
>
>> The AMiGA
>> is a fucken peice of shit compared to a Pentium....
>
>At what, exactly?  Having programmed PC's professionally for over a decade,
>I'd be inclined to say that quite the opposite is true.

Well I agree, I programmed AMiGA and am getting into PC now. AMiGA was
a lot easier. But the AMiGA is dead, therefor a piece of shit...
>
>It's interesting to note that none of you pro-piracy people can spell or use
>punctuation.
>
>

We cheat on our spelling and gramma. WE LiVe by a CrEEd  Dun u Know.

On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 23:50:49 GMT, "Angelo Vigliotti"
<jamesvigATT@cox.net> wrote:


>
>They're typically 14-20 years old.  Haven't had a date in just as long.
>Spend 5 hours a day playing Half Life or it's modifications on their
>"peEcEee" while applying acne cream to their infested faces and still
>drinking too much soda staying up to 3 a.am.
>
>Don't hold it against them, it's just juvenile angst, rebel against anything
>they do not understand. And they can't appreciate anything that
>doesn't "gimmie gimmie gimmie" something directly to them usually
>for free.  Mommy and Daddy still pay the bills so work is this
>"outside" thing others do so they can play cO0l WaREz and
>chat with their fake friends whom they have never seen in
>real life about the latest wArez they found.  Their fake
>friends being pedophiles waiting for the right moment to "invite"
>them to a scene party.
>
>We have a professional support line setup for these lost souls.
>All they need to do is ask for help.
>
>Don't hold it against them. ;-)
>
>                Jim

Dun think so... I support piracy for da p00r... Those that can afford
must pay...

On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 22:57:42 GMT, Greg Tallent <tjg@tgr.arg(ROT13)>
wrote:


>>
>>It's interesting to note that none of you pro-piracy people can spell or use
>>punctuation.
>
>It's a pity that there isn't a pirated version of "Hooked on Phonics"
>floating around for them to download...
>

Hehehe, Ok, 1 for you as well...

On 13 Jul 2002 4:10:48 +0000, "John Burns" <joobs@free-online.co.uk>
wrote:


>
>OK lets get some fact straight I for instance have a top of the range PC 
>(self built and no Pentium!), a Mac Quadra, and a few Amigas. Of the three 
>systems I prefer to spend money on the Amigas. Why? because I prefer the OS 
>not because it is the fastest of the systems, but hey it's my money and I 
>can decide how I spend it.
>
>I was in the pub last night with some friends from work I paid �1.50 for a 
>pint of lager whilst they paid �2 for a small bottle (half pint appprox) of 
>Becks. Did I stop them paying a grossly exorbitant amount for their drinks 
>or steal them since I felt they were overpriced? No, of course not, the fact 
>that I, or you, feel something is overpriced is no excuse for theft. Hwy if 
>it was I'd have a stolen Ferrari sitting outside my front door, as no doubt 
>would my neighbours. BTW I think PCs are overpriced so give me your address 
>and I'll come around and steal yours - Fair enough, ain't it.
>

I support theft for survival, but stealing from the rich only....
Robin Hood! Generally I support theft as political action, but theft
from the wealthy only!

I am a pirate! Ugh hurrr me buckies...

>Hmm, there may be more truth to this than you realize.  if you consider that
>pirates steal the works of other persons and feel no guilt from it, then
>these are people that I(for one) would watch VERY closely if they were near
>me since they have no respect for the property of others.
>
>Don't leave anything you value near them...
>
>>arguments from a real world to give a good answer, but this is something 
>>that is as alien to him as copyright law is.
>>As always, it is useless to argue with a pirate, even if you can get some 
>>fun from reading such posts :)
>

Man, wake up and smell reality. Don't the wealthy steal from the
working classes on a daily bases?

Or do you believe that the wealthy are honest hard working people?

Yeh right! hard at work ripping the poor off!

On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:11:54 GMT, elvis007now@hotmail.com (Jim) wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 16:15:49 GMT, Troy Parker <tparker66@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Who's talking about only "Amiga" software? You should read the thread 
> >to find out which side your on, as it's not limited to anything, the 
> >person I was responding to supports "All Piracy" in all forms.
> >
> >"All Piracy"
> >
> >When you've read that, and his hatred of programmers, then and only 
> >then, come back and tell me you still agree with him.
> >
> 
> Ok, I didn't read the thread :)
> 
> I don't know why he would hate programmers? But as for piracy, I support
> piracy for the poor, the middle and upper classes must pay though.
> 
Which begs the question of who decides who are the "poor".

> I'll speak no more on the subject :)
> 

On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:25:39 GMT, elvis007now@hotmail.com (Jim) wrote:

> 
> >Hmm, there may be more truth to this than you realize.  if you consider that
> >pirates steal the works of other persons and feel no guilt from it, then
> >these are people that I(for one) would watch VERY closely if they were near
> >me since they have no respect for the property of others.
> >
> >Don't leave anything you value near them...
> >
> >>arguments from a real world to give a good answer, but this is something 
> >>that is as alien to him as copyright law is.
> >>As always, it is useless to argue with a pirate, even if you can get some 
> >>fun from reading such posts :)
> >
> 
> Man, wake up and smell reality. Don't the wealthy steal from the working
> classes on a daily bases?
> 
> Or do you believe that the wealthy are honest hard working people?
> 
Whilst I see and agree with the sentiment I would just point out that two wrongs
don't make a right. Karl Marx (who I believe was a bit of a socialist) himself
said that the ends don't justify the means.

> Yeh right! hard at work ripping the poor off!

Fact is Pirates don't give a shit how wealthy a games publisher is all they want
is to get something for free. Making out that software piracy is in some way
akin to being a modern day Robin Hood endeavour is morally bankrupt.

"John Burns" <joobs@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8962101197834.NC-1.53.joobs@news.free-online.net...
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:11:54 GMT, elvis007now@hotmail.com (Jim) wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 16:15:49 GMT, Troy Parker <tparker66@nc.rr.com>
wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Who's talking about only "Amiga" software? You should read the thread
> > >to find out which side your on, as it's not limited to anything, the
> > >person I was responding to supports "All Piracy" in all forms.
> > >
> > >"All Piracy"
> > >
> > >When you've read that, and his hatred of programmers, then and only
> > >then, come back and tell me you still agree with him.
> > >
> >
> > Ok, I didn't read the thread :)
> >
> > I don't know why he would hate programmers? But as for piracy, I support
> > piracy for the poor, the middle and upper classes must pay though.
> >
> Which begs the question of who decides who are the "poor".
>
> > I'll speak no more on the subject :)
> >
>

Well if you're "begging" the question...... ;-)
heehee couldn't resist!

            Jim

> > If the DeLorean is on the side of the road, with no owner, no one would
> > give a rat's ass if it was taken.

This DeLorean analogy with copying games, with lost-found office and
all, is really the most bizarre piece of nonsense I've ever read in
any newsgroup.

On 16 Jul 2002 01:41:01 +0100, "John Burns"
<joobs@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote:


>> 
>> I don't know why he would hate programmers? But as for piracy, I support
>> piracy for the poor, the middle and upper classes must pay though.
>> 
>Which begs the question of who decides who are the "poor".
>

Well every person knows there own financial situation. So it's an
honour system... If you can afford you buy, ifyou can't afford use for
free.

On 16 Jul 2002 01:50:54 +0100, "John Burns"
<joobs@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:25:39 GMT, elvis007now@hotmail.com (Jim) wrote:

>> 
>Whilst I see and agree with the sentiment I would just point out that two wrongs
>don't make a right. Karl Marx (who I believe was a bit of a socialist) himself
>said that the ends don't justify the means.
>


>> Yeh right! hard at work ripping the poor off!
>
>Fact is Pirates don't give a shit how wealthy a games publisher is all they want
>is to get something for free. Making out that software piracy is in some way
>akin to being a modern day Robin Hood endeavour is morally bankrupt.
>

A pirate doesn't have to care about the game publisher. A pirates job
is to release their wares and the individual who d/l's has to wiegh up
the morality of wether it's right or wrong.

I beleive those that can afford to buy must buy, those who can't
afford, well d/l for free.

Anyone who earns more than $600 per week is in a position to buy all
the software. People that are lower working class or unemployed don't
earn enough money and therefor should have access to warez.

"Jim" <elvis007now@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d35790c.10405401@news.froggy.com.au...
> On 16 Jul 2002 01:50:54 +0100, "John Burns"
> <joobs@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:25:39 GMT, elvis007now@hotmail.com (Jim) wrote:
>
> >>
> >Whilst I see and agree with the sentiment I would just point out that two
wrongs
> >don't make a right. Karl Marx (who I believe was a bit of a socialist)
himself
> >said that the ends don't justify the means.
> >
>
>
> >> Yeh right! hard at work ripping the poor off!
> >
> >Fact is Pirates don't give a shit how wealthy a games publisher is all
they want
> >is to get something for free. Making out that software piracy is in some
way
> >akin to being a modern day Robin Hood endeavour is morally bankrupt.
> >
>
> A pirate doesn't have to care about the game publisher. A pirates job
> is to release their wares and the individual who d/l's has to wiegh up
> the morality of wether it's right or wrong.
>
> I beleive those that can afford to buy must buy, those who can't
> afford, well d/l for free.
>
> Anyone who earns more than $600 per week is in a position to buy all
> the software. People that are lower working class or unemployed don't
> earn enough money and therefor should have access to warez.

For fucks sake Jim I have more than my fair share of lets say 'dodgy'
software and I don't ever give it much thought if I'm offered the latest
game for free. I take it as most people would. But even I can see you're
talking absolute fucking bollocks.

DAVID YOUR A FUCKING COCK PUTTING AN INDIVIDUALS PRIVATE ADDRESS UP HERE

"David Solohub" <ChryslerMan@ironhoof.com> wrote in message
news:cfa07711.0206300450.17c463c2@posting.google.com...
> L@@K FREE Amiga software from this site.Why spend money again on Amiga
software!
>
> http://www.enigma.i12.com
>
> If you don't like this bullshit that's killing the Amiga then do something
> about it and get the asshole thats running this site and is selling
illegal
> pirated Amiga software on CD and making $$$.
>
> He goes by the name Enigma or Swobbly or what ever bullshit he likes
calling
> himself but his real name is Gary Marshall and he lives at this address.
>
> Flat 1-Brockhurst Road
> Gosport
> PO12 3BB
> England
>
> Telephone No +44 2392 786644
>
> I've done my bit and I hope the Amiga community does something about it.
>
> Regards
>
> David Solohub

Oh and btw way David, Gary has been made aware of your irresponsible
activities


"David Solohub" <ChryslerMan@ironhoof.com> wrote in message
news:cfa07711.0206300450.17c463c2@posting.google.com...
> L@@K FREE Amiga software from this site.Why spend money again on Amiga
software!
>
> http://www.enigma.i12.com
>
> If you don't like this bullshit that's killing the Amiga then do something
> about it and get the asshole thats running this site and is selling
illegal
> pirated Amiga software on CD and making $$$.
>
> He goes by the name Enigma or Swobbly or what ever bullshit he likes
calling
> himself but his real name is Gary Marshall and he lives at this address.
>
> Flat 1-Brockhurst Road
> Gosport
> PO12 3BB
> England
>
> Telephone No +44 2392 786644
>
> I've done my bit and I hope the Amiga community does something about it.
>
> Regards
>
> David Solohub

WELL AREN'T YOU A LITTLE DO GOODER THEN< LIKE YOU HAVE NEVER USED PIRATE
SOFTWARE IN ANY FORM< YOU CUNT
"Swizzle" <kjk@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:329U8.216648$nZ3.102365@rwcrnsc53...
> Well it looks like he takes most of his payments through Pay Pal - so I
just
> filed a complaint with them to have his account freezed. However, he's
been
> a Pay Pal member for over a year and it doesn't look like he's ever had
> someone send him any money ;)
>
> "David Solohub" <ChryslerMan@ironhoof.com> wrote in message
> news:cfa07711.0206300450.17c463c2@posting.google.com...
> > L@@K FREE Amiga software from this site.Why spend money again on Amiga
> software!
> >
> > http://www.enigma.i12.com
> >
> > If you don't like this bullshit that's killing the Amiga then do
something
> > about it and get the asshole thats running this site and is selling
> illegal
> > pirated Amiga software on CD and making $$$.
> >
> > He goes by the name Enigma or Swobbly or what ever bullshit he likes
> calling
> > himself but his real name is Gary Marshall and he lives at this address.
> >
> > Flat 1-Brockhurst Road
> > Gosport
> > PO12 3BB
> > England
> >
> > Telephone No +44 2392 786644
> >
> > I've done my bit and I hope the Amiga community does something about it.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > David Solohub
>
>

In article <3d35790c.10405401@news.froggy.com.au>, Jim wrote:
> On 16 Jul 2002 01:50:54 +0100, "John Burns"
> <joobs@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> >On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:25:39 GMT, elvis007now@hotmail.com (Jim) wrote:
> 
> >> 
> >Whilst I see and agree with the sentiment I would just point out that two wrongs
> >don't make a right. Karl Marx (who I believe was a bit of a socialist) himself
> >said that the ends don't justify the means.
> >
> 
> 
> >> Yeh right! hard at work ripping the poor off!
> >
> >Fact is Pirates don't give a shit how wealthy a games publisher is all they want
> >is to get something for free. Making out that software piracy is in some way
> >akin to being a modern day Robin Hood endeavour is morally bankrupt.
> >
> 
> A pirate doesn't have to care about the game publisher. A pirates job
> is to release their wares and the individual who d/l's has to wiegh up
> the morality of wether it's right or wrong.
> 
> I beleive those that can afford to buy must buy, those who can't
> afford, well d/l for free.
> 
> Anyone who earns more than $600 per week is in a position to buy all
> the software. People that are lower working class or unemployed don't
> earn enough money and therefor should have access to warez.

What an elitist bunch we've become as a people!

A home computer is a luxury. There are people in this world who can't 
afford basic things like food and shelter (heh, like programmers these 
days)

-- 
Doughnuts are my downfall

> A home computer is a luxury. There are people in this world who can't
> afford basic things like food and shelter (heh, like programmers these
> days)

Not to mention the fact that while in the US you may consider $600 a week
poor, in other, not so lucky parts of the world it can be a lot. This is a
simple fact that is normally overlooked by US citizens.
Software is normally priced to make it affordable in the US, strangely quite
a lot of people fail to buy software there, and people earning less are more
likely to buy.
Strange world, isn't it...?

Istv�n

PS: I'm a developer and hence strictly against piracy, but I wanted to
highlight a not so obvious thing.

"Istv�n F�bi�n" <askme@where.com> wrote:

> Not to mention the fact that while in the US you may consider $600 a
> week poor, in other, not so lucky parts of the world it can be a lot.
> This is a simple fact that is normally overlooked by US citizens.

You mean there are US citizens that *know* that there is a world around 
them???
I always though all the normal US dude knows about "Paris" is that it is 
located in Texas...

Ciao, Alfred

Bikerdude <bikerdude@nospam.com> scribbled the following
on comp.sys.amiga.games:
> WELL AREN'T YOU A LITTLE DO GOODER THEN< LIKE YOU HAVE NEVER USED PIRATE
> SOFTWARE IN ANY FORM< YOU CUNT

In all fairness, how do you know for certain he has used pirate
software? I would think it is certainly plausible for people who have
never touched a pirate copy of anything to exist.

-- 
/-- Joona Palaste (palaste@cc.helsinki.fi) ---------------------------\
| Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
| http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste       W++ B OP+                     |
\----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
"C++ looks like line noise."
   - Fred L. Baube III

"Alfred Schwarz"
<Alfred.P.Schwarz@idontwantspam-kerckhoff.med.uni-giessen.de> wrote in
message news:Xns924F7820DA3C2AlfredPSchwarzkerckh@134.176.2.249...
> "Istv�n F�bi�n" <askme@where.com> wrote:
>
> > Not to mention the fact that while in the US you may consider $600 a
> > week poor, in other, not so lucky parts of the world it can be a lot.
> > This is a simple fact that is normally overlooked by US citizens.
>
> You mean there are US citizens that *know* that there is a world around
> them???
> I always though all the normal US dude knows about "Paris" is that it is
> located in Texas...
>
> Ciao, Alfred


NAH. We all know it's in that fun loving country that didn't want to
extradite
terrorists connected with Sept. 11th if they might face the death penalty
in the US if convicted!

Gotta love the froggies and their logic.  Create the Guillotine and carry
out more public executions in short time then any other country then
feel so guilty about it later that no person seems to deserve execution.
Regardless of the crime impact.

          Jim

Angelo wrote:

> "Alfred Schwarz"
> <Alfred.P.Schwarz@idontwantspam-kerckhoff.med.uni-giessen.de> wrote in
> message news:Xns924F7820DA3C2AlfredPSchwarzkerckh@134.176.2.249...
> > "Istv�n F�bi�n" <askme@where.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Not to mention the fact that while in the US you may consider $600 a
> > > week poor, in other, not so lucky parts of the world it can be a lot.
> > > This is a simple fact that is normally overlooked by US citizens.
> >
> > You mean there are US citizens that *know* that there is a world around
> > them???
> > I always though all the normal US dude knows about "Paris" is that it is
> > located in Texas...
> >
> > Ciao, Alfred
>
> NAH. We all know it's in that fun loving country that didn't want to
> extradite
> terrorists connected with Sept. 11th if they might face the death penalty
> in the US if convicted!
>
> Gotta love the froggies and their logic.  Create the Guillotine and carry
> out more public executions in short time then any other country then
> feel so guilty about it later that no person seems to deserve execution.
> Regardless of the crime impact.

No human being has the right to convict another human being to death. Death
penalty is barbaric, and so is any country still practicing it.

Joachim

"Joachim Froholt" <jfroholt@c2i.net> wrote in message
news:3D37BE2F.6BA30B3D@c2i.net...
>
>
> Angelo wrote:
>
> > "Alfred Schwarz"
> > <Alfred.P.Schwarz@idontwantspam-kerckhoff.med.uni-giessen.de> wrote in
> > message news:Xns924F7820DA3C2AlfredPSchwarzkerckh@134.176.2.249...
> > > "Istv�n F�bi�n" <askme@where.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Not to mention the fact that while in the US you may consider $600 a
> > > > week poor, in other, not so lucky parts of the world it can be a
lot.
> > > > This is a simple fact that is normally overlooked by US citizens.
> > >
> > > You mean there are US citizens that *know* that there is a world
around
> > > them???
> > > I always though all the normal US dude knows about "Paris" is that it
is
> > > located in Texas...
> > >
> > > Ciao, Alfred
> >
> > NAH. We all know it's in that fun loving country that didn't want to
> > extradite
> > terrorists connected with Sept. 11th if they might face the death
penalty
> > in the US if convicted!
> >
> > Gotta love the froggies and their logic.  Create the Guillotine and
carry
> > out more public executions in short time then any other country then
> > feel so guilty about it later that no person seems to deserve execution.
> > Regardless of the crime impact.
>
> No human being has the right to convict another human being to death.
Death
> penalty is barbaric, and so is any country still practicing it.
>
> Joachim

Said the man right before his family was killed for no other reason than
just being there.  Lay down like sheep.  When you can come to grips
that in humanity there are individuals your rose colored glasses cannot
ever change nor be reconciled with maybe you will see truth
in all it's ugliness as well as beauty.

EVERY individual has the right to sentence another to death if it
means preventing that individual from killing more.
The death penalty is NOT a damn deterrence to others it's
a permanent prevention of THAT individual.
You can philosophize all you want about life/death consequences,
but you had better come to grips with reality that some people
will just kill period instead of having mealy mouthed rose colored
blinders/explanations.

When the bad men come to pay you a visit do you just cry
and lay down?  Your response has already answered that.

            Jim

> Said the man right before his family was killed for no other reason than
> just being there.  Lay down like sheep.  When you can come to grips
> that in humanity there are individuals your rose colored glasses cannot
> ever change nor be reconciled with maybe you will see truth
> in all it's ugliness as well as beauty.
>
> EVERY individual has the right to sentence another to death if it
> means preventing that individual from killing more.
> The death penalty is NOT a damn deterrence to others it's
> a permanent prevention of THAT individual.
> You can philosophize all you want about life/death consequences,
> but you had better come to grips with reality that some people
> will just kill period instead of having mealy mouthed rose colored
> blinders/explanations.
>
> When the bad men come to pay you a visit do you just cry
> and lay down?  Your response has already answered that.
>
>             Jim

You had better come to grips with the reality that some people will just
kill period because they've got fuck all else to do and fuck all to live
for. You answer to scociety's problems is to kill people. Well what do you
know! *Their* answer to life's problems is to kill people too! Vicious
fucking circle until enough people get smart enough to change things.

"John Burns" <joobs@grizo.free-onlineNOJUNK.co.uk> wrote in message
news:89661891134717.NC-1.53.joobs@news.free-online.net...
> On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:32:03 GMT, "Angelo" wrote:
>
> >
> > "Joachim Froholt" <jfroholt@c2i.net> wrote in message
> > news:3D37BE2F.6BA30B3D@c2i.net...
> > >
> > >
> > > Angelo wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Alfred Schwarz"
> > > > <Alfred.P.Schwarz@idontwantspam-kerckhoff.med.uni-giessen.de> wrote
in
> > > > message news:Xns924F7820DA3C2AlfredPSchwarzkerckh@134.176.2.249...
> > > > > "Istv�n F�bi�n" <askme@where.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Not to mention the fact that while in the US you may consider
$600 a
> > > > > > week poor, in other, not so lucky parts of the world it can be a
> > lot.
> > > > > > This is a simple fact that is normally overlooked by US
citizens.
> > > > >
> > > > > You mean there are US citizens that *know* that there is a world
> > around
> > > > > them???
> > > > > I always though all the normal US dude knows about "Paris" is that
it
> > is
> > > > > located in Texas...
> > > > >
> > > > > Ciao, Alfred
> > > >
> > > > NAH. We all know it's in that fun loving country that didn't want to
> > > > extradite
> > > > terrorists connected with Sept. 11th if they might face the death
> > penalty
> > > > in the US if convicted!
> > > >
> > > > Gotta love the froggies and their logic.  Create the Guillotine and
> > carry
> > > > out more public executions in short time then any other country then
> > > > feel so guilty about it later that no person seems to deserve
execution.
> > > > Regardless of the crime impact.
> > >
> > > No human being has the right to convict another human being to death.
> > Death
> > > penalty is barbaric, and so is any country still practicing it.
> > >
> > > Joachim
> >
> > Said the man right before his family was killed for no other reason than
> > just being there.  Lay down like sheep.  When you can come to grips that
in
> > humanity there are individuals your rose colored glasses cannot ever
change
> > nor be reconciled with maybe you will see truth in all it's ugliness as
well
> > as beauty.
> >
> > EVERY individual has the right to sentence another to death if it means
> > preventing that individual from killing more. The death penalty is NOT a
> > damn deterrence to others it's a permanent prevention of THAT
individual.
> > You can philosophize all you want about life/death consequences, but you
had
> > better come to grips with reality that some people will just kill period
> > instead of having mealy mouthed rose colored blinders/explanations.
> >
> From a citizen of the country which supported terrorism as long as it was
in
> someone else's backyard. (NORAID, Contras, etc.). Now that the reality of
> terrorism has come home to roost you bleat like stuck pigs.

Careful John, your IRA background is showing.  What's wrong?
The IRA fed up with indescriminate killings and you are out of
a job now?
Yeah we SURE supported terrorism.  Do you even know what
the fuck NORAID is?  Or what the Contras were fighting?
Hint...It's not a glib sound-bite you can just throw around ignorant
or it's meaning/background.  Been watching too much tellie?
Now I know where the phrase "Why can't Johnny read?"
comes from.  Back up your claims John.

>
> > When the bad men come to pay you a visit do you just cry and lay down?
Your
> > response has already answered that.
> >
> And what about those who are wrongly convicted? No justice system is
perfect and
> miscarriages sadly happen, one can compensate these people for the time
they
> have been incarcerated but one cannot resurrect them.

And such is the state of humanity.  Nothing is perfect.  You can only
make as perfect as possible.  You tell me the numbers of incarcirated
"innocent" individuals then tell me the "better" system.  Tell me how many
saved from death by the death of one committing it?  Tell me your
perfect world where there is a perfect system. Until that
it's just hyperbole.  Your option? No death penalty and
incarceration for life? Hmmm some would argue that is more
inhumane than the death penalty.  Say your life prisoner
escapes (after all with a definite life sentence all they have
to live for is escape)  what do you say when they start murdering
again in the manner that would have brought a death sentence?
Study the stats on "rehabilitated" murderers that could have
received a death sentence that are repeat offenders.
Try your own country's stats.  You might find something
you don't want to read.

Not as simple as just "No death penalty" is it.

             Jim

"Troy Parker" <tparker66@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17a2b5bc83979d1b989904@news-server.nc.rr.com...
> In article <x2evg7bbz24.fsf@vigrid.ifi.uio.no>, Henrik Grindal Bakken
> wrote:
> >
> >  [ This is rather off-topic, but, hey.  It's usenet, isn't it? ]
> >
> > Troy Parker <tparker66@nc.rr.com> writes:
> >
> > > In article <x2e8z47di7e.fsf@vigrid.ifi.uio.no>, Henrik Grindal Bakken
> > > wrote:
> > >> No one said they were going to release the bastard.  I'm always a
> > >> bit puzzled by these people who can't see any option between
> > >> putting people back on the streets and executing them.
> > >
> > > And nobody said he was going to be executed either.
> >
> > I thought that was the scenario.  At least that chances are that he
> > would be.
>
> Sure there's a chance, but remember, we have liberals here too 8^)
> I give  John "Walker" Lindh pretty good odds he'll get life in prison
> watching the Cartoon Channel and Nick at Nite. Right now there's a
> movement here that wants War Criminals to be tried in Civilian Courts,
> with all the same rights as a Citizen! Even France hasn't gone that
> far!
>
> So having no extradition preventing the trial is acceptable based on
> what the punishment might be? Who *would* France extradite if not the
> people responsible for 9/11?
>
> Are they not a part of NATO anymore?
>
> > > What puzzles me is when a body of people who A) Arn't a party to the
> > > agressor, and B) Arn't a party to the victim, seem to think they are
> > > somehow involved and should somehow stand between the two to prevent
> > > justice.
> >
> > Huh?  That's obvious.  It is IMHO _very_ important in order to keep a
> > certain justice that the victims have very little to say when it comes
> > to sentencing.  _Every_ sentencing should be carried out by impartial
> > bodies (as impartial as possible, at least).
>
> The French by refusing to extradite block the trial, blocking
> sentencing, or anything having to do with Justice at all. The French
> are not "Impartial" with regards to Justice, they're apathetic to it.
>
> > >> Practically every country in Europe will refuse to extradite a
> > >> criminal to a country in which (s)he could face the death penalty,
> > >> and I'm glad they do.
> > >
> > > We're not talking about a criminal, we're talking about an
> > > International Terrorist,
> >
> > A criminal.
>
> A War Criminal, by the terms of NATO. Which by the way is violated when
> a nation blocks justice of said.
>
> > > one who's successfully murdered thousands upon thousans of people
> > > who's only crime was to show up for work that day, only to have tons
> > > of rubble and burning fuel bury them alive screaming as they became
> > > a crater in one of our largest cities, as the rest of the country
> > > watched in horror as they watched live on TV hundreds of people
> > > jumping out of windows like lemmings to their death as the skyline
> > > of the city falls with them.
> >
> > Yes, it's an extremely nasty crime that was commited, and obviously
> > they should face very severe punishment,
>
> I don't think they "should face very severe punishment, " I think they
> should be extradited to serve trial for the crimes they've committed.
>
> > but there are many who just
> > don't believe in the death penalty as anything worth considering,
>
> Many here didn't want to see Eliam sent back to Cuba either, but we'd
> like to think that Justice carries a higher priority than local
> opinion.
>
> > and
> > when the Americans can't promise that they will absent from DP, then
> > the terrorist won't be extradited.
>
> So the French are acting as "Defense lawyers" for War Criminals now.
> "Promise us this and we'll let them stand trial"
>
> > And, lets face it, it's not like these terrorist acts come out of
> > nothing.  I think that's one of the main problems with this entire
> > debate.
>
> Is this the part where I'm told I deserve it because I'm an Evil
> American? Is this where I'm told I have to pay the "Sins of the
> Fathers" and world suffering is my fault? World hunger, Aids, plague,
> disease, famine, drought, there all my fault because I'm an American
> and I was asking for it eventually because I ignored the plights of
> others.
>
> I can take it, I'm used to it. I hear it all the time. Lay it on I
> deserve it. I've heard it all before and just accept it now. It's
> something my children will unfortunately have to endure as well,
> through no fault of their own.
>
> > The question of _why_ terrorism continues to, ahem,
> > terrorise us, is never raised.
>
> By Who? Us? You? France? Why is it a question? The answer has been
> "Given" already. "We will not stop untill every last American is
> murdered."
>
> Good grief man! Justice doesn't concern itself with "Why" a girl was
> raped. (At least here where "Crimes of Passion" isn't a legal defense)
>
> > When you have people, like for example
> > the Palestinians, who live in suffering, have done so for umpteen
> > years and see _no_ way out of their hell, something is bound to
> > happen.
>
> And what is France, or the rest of the world doing about it? What
> should you do? What should we do? What should we have done? Does it
> evem natter? Why is "Western Civilization" both at fault for "Unwanted
> Interference" and "Not doing anything" *at the same time*? Why is it
> not Russia's fault? Englands? China?
>
> "Look, people are suffering and America isn't doing anything" ...As the
> *world* does nothing either! It's America's fault.
>
> "Look, Iraq invaded Kuwait, and America is interfering!" You can't be
> American and win, any way anything turns out it's either our fault for
> doing something, or NOT doing it.
>
> >  I'm not saying the people in WTC were guilty of anything,
> > they weren't IMO and I _very_much_ condemn _all_ terrorist attacks
> > against innocent civilians,
>
> "
> > but
> "
>
> > the situation in the world today is
> > also very much a product of western countries's (and in particular
> > USA's) foreign policy over the years.
>
> And what was the "goal" of our foreign policy over the years? Protect
> our allies in NATO. Protect Europe from Russia. Protect the Jews from
> the Bastard. Feed China. Repel Japan. Rebuild Japan. Rebuild Europe.
> Repel Communist advances on Democratic allies.
>
> Then forgive all costs and war debts. all of them. The figures work out
> to approximately $8000 for every man, woman and child in America, that
> *we still owe* and pay interest on because we forgave the debts of
> others to us, in the interest of helping our global neighbors.
>
> > Seen in a global perspective,
>
> What "Global Perspective?" Tell that to France who believe local
> perspective is all that matters. When it comes to America, we're
> accountable to everyone, even in matters of our own murdered, right?
>
> Funny how "Global Perspective" only counts when it's Anti-American,
> when "Global Perspective" is applied to any other country, it's called
> "Intrusive" and "Meddling."
>
> > the WTC disaster is relatively small in terms of people killed.  Huge
> > as an isolated incident, but innocent people die all the time as a
> > result of poverty, for example.
>
> Or the Plague, which swept Europe, hell the world wars were nothing in
> a "Global Perspective" right? Because they can be compared to disease
> and famine??
>
> >  Much of which the western world must
> > take quite a lot of responsibility for.
>
> Why's that? Oh yea, I forgot. It's all our fault. It's not the *worlds*
> problem, it's just ours. Not yours or anyone elses. We're responsible
> for the food, and the rest of the world chips in by protecting War
> Criminals from cruel trials. Everybody picks a job, and ours is food,
> of course this will change at will, anything we do or don't do will be
> blamed on us and we  "must take quite a bit of responsibility for."
>
> That's our job too, We're the worlds whore and scapegoat.
>
> > > Anytime there's trouble in any other part of the world we're
> > > expected to send our young to die to protect our global neighbors,
> > > and now one of those neighbors is worried about the well-being of
> > > this one man? My fv(king heart bleeds.
> >
> > They're not so much worried about his well-being as they're opposed to
> > the death penalty.  Besides, I think there are _very_ many who think
> > the Americans get involved too often.
>
> And the other half hate us for not being involved. It's not easy being
> green.
>
> > > Why would France hold them anyway? The crime they've committed can
> > > only be tried here, what charges could France bring, and on what
> > > grounds could they hold them if they fail to legally recognise our
> > > extradition?
> >
> > I suppose they easily can charge him on breaches of international law,
>
> Yea, like those agreed to in NATO, which has already been thrown out
> the window because the French have Moral Issues(tm). So much for
> holding them on International charges.
>
> > but I'm not sure.  I don't know the techincalities here.  Besides, I'm
> > definitely not sure about the extradition policies between France and
> > the US.
>
> They're covered in NATO.
>
> > >> It's pretty much (I think) the same principle as refusing to
> > >> extradite to a country where the person can be convicted for
> > >> something that is legal in the country he was caught (say, for
> > >> example, that some girl had done something relatively innocent by
> > >> Norwegian standards, but she did it in Afghanistan where it's
> > >> illegal.  Norway would never send her back to face charges).
> > >
> > > I hardly think this is comparable to a teenage stunt or fraternity
> > > prank that violated a local taboo.
> >
> > No, it isn't, but the principle is the same I think.
>
> "Principals" do not scale linerally from one extreme to the other, it's
> an obscene perversion of the principal when stretched that far.
>
> > And that's what
> > this is all about.  It's _not_ a case of France not wanting this bloke
> > behind bars, but they have laws, and laws are not there to be broken
> > (at least not by a nation or a government (at least not openly)).  If
> > French laws say they can't extradite a person to a country in which he
> > faces DP (I think Norwegian (where I'm from) does), then they can't
> > extradite.
>
> So much for that "Global Perspective"^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H"American
> Interference" then.
>
> > >> European countries are _not_ terrorist friendly, but they don't
> > >> execute them.
> > >
> > > ...and in refusing to extradite they prevent justice.
> >
> > That depends.  From what I've gathered, it is very uncommon that
> > people commit serious crimes and are able to hide (openly) in European
> > countries.  If they have no way of putting the guy on trial, chances
> > are he'll be extradited somewhere he can be.
>
> All other nations belonging to NATO have already sworn to abide by the
> treaty, oh, and "Global Perspective."
>
>
> damn politics...
>
> Back on topic, how do the french feel about software piracy :^/
> --
> Doughnuts are my downfall

Well Troy you were a LOT more politically correct with the
response than I was. ;-)  TACT is not one of my strong points.
I always see TACT as a four letter word when you don't want
to really tell the truth boiling down deep. ;-)

Thank you for the words.

They want it all ways.  America is to blame for being and
not being.  Ahhhhh BOWIE had it right.
"I'm afraid of Americans, I'm afraid of the world"
Wonder whom he was applying that feeling too? ;->

      Jim

> > You had better come to grips with the reality that some people will just
> > kill period because they've got fuck all else to do and fuck all to live
> > for. You answer to scociety's problems is to kill people. Well what do
you
> > know! *Their* answer to life's problems is to kill people too! Vicious
> > fucking circle until enough people get smart enough to change things.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yup the same vicious circle that has enabled you to sit there snug
> and safe to post such trash.  Think about that for a moment and
> the thousands that brought that moment to you.
>
> You are of the ilk that anyone can be "cured" for the things
> that people are executed for.  Must be a nice sheltered world
> you live in.

Thats a load of bollocks and I certainly never suggested that anyone can or
can't be 'cured'. What I said was that when our whole fuckin scociety is
mature enough we wont be breeding fuckwits who go out and kill people. Read
what people are saying before commenting you useless twat.

> > Erm.........are we talking about Bush here or Bin-Laden?
> > You do realise that more inocent people have died as a direct result of
> > Bush's policies post 911 than were killed on the day.
>
> Oh yea, I forgot, the WAR. "Erm..."
>
> Usually when someone starts a war, people die. Bush didn't start the
> war. We Were Attacked.

Oh fuck off and get a grip. This 'war' has been going on for decades and its
all about money. If you think for one micro-second that anything that our
governments do is ever done out of a sense of moral duty you are living in a
fucking dream world.

In article <VJ9_8.2188$Hy1.37575@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>, Link 
wrote:
> > > Erm.........are we talking about Bush here or Bin-Laden?
> > > You do realise that more inocent people have died as a direct result of
> > > Bush's policies post 911 than were killed on the day.
> >
> > Oh yea, I forgot, the WAR. "Erm..."
> >
> > Usually when someone starts a war, people die. Bush didn't start the
> > war. We Were Attacked.
> 
> Oh fuck off and get a grip. This 'war' has been going on for decades and its
> all about money. If you think for one micro-second that anything that our
> governments do is ever done out of a sense of moral duty you are living in a
> fucking dream world.

Oh, you're one of those.
-- 
Doughnuts are my downfall

Angelo wrote:

> "Joachim Froholt" <jfroholt@c2i.net> wrote in message
> news:3D37BE2F.6BA30B3D@c2i.net...
> >
> >
> > Angelo wrote:
> >
> > > "Alfred Schwarz"
> > > <Alfred.P.Schwarz@idontwantspam-kerckhoff.med.uni-giessen.de> wrote in
> > > message news:Xns924F7820DA3C2AlfredPSchwarzkerckh@134.176.2.249...
> > > > "Istv�n F�bi�n" <askme@where.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Not to mention the fact that while in the US you may consider $600 a
> > > > > week poor, in other, not so lucky parts of the world it can be a
> lot.
> > > > > This is a simple fact that is normally overlooked by US citizens.
> > > >
> > > > You mean there are US citizens that *know* that there is a world
> around
> > > > them???
> > > > I always though all the normal US dude knows about "Paris" is that it
> is
> > > > located in Texas...
> > > >
> > > > Ciao, Alfred
> > >
> > > NAH. We all know it's in that fun loving country that didn't want to
> > > extradite
> > > terrorists connected with Sept. 11th if they might face the death
> penalty
> > > in the US if convicted!
> > >
> > > Gotta love the froggies and their logic.  Create the Guillotine and
> carry
> > > out more public executions in short time then any other country then
> > > feel so guilty about it later that no person seems to deserve execution.
> > > Regardless of the crime impact.
> >
> > No human being has the right to convict another human being to death.
> Death
> > penalty is barbaric, and so is any country still practicing it.
> >
> > Joachim
>
> Said the man right before his family was killed for no other reason than
> just being there.  Lay down like sheep.  When you can come to grips
> that in humanity there are individuals your rose colored glasses cannot
> ever change nor be reconciled with maybe you will see truth
> in all it's ugliness as well as beauty.

I don't see what this have to do with anything. I certainly realize that the
world is a terrible, terrible place. Much worse than most people in the "free"
world seem to think. But what's this got to do with death penalty? "The world is
so terrible we might as well make it a little bit worse so we can feel better.."

>
> EVERY individual has the right to sentence another to death if it
> means preventing that individual from killing more.

Yes and no. If I came across some person who was trying to kill innocent people,
I might end up trying to kill or hurt him to prevent him from killing anyone
innocent. If that was the only way I could save the innocent people he was
trying to kill. But if I came across this person sitting safely behind prison
bars, I would have no reason to harm him since he wasn't dangerous anymore.

> The death penalty is NOT a damn deterrence to others it's
> a permanent prevention of THAT individual.

That individual is allready in jail. He or she can't continue killing. This is
one of the reasons we lock people up in the first place - so that they stop
being a danger to society. So killing a person in prison can't possibly be
considered self defence.

> You can philosophize all you want about life/death consequences,
> but you had better come to grips with reality that some people
> will just kill period instead of having mealy mouthed rose colored
> blinders/explanations.

And they should sit in a cell for an appropriate time.

> When the bad men come to pay you a visit do you just cry
> and lay down?  Your response has already answered that.

Killing in self defence or defense of others is "okay". I use "'es because it's
obviously never okay to take other people's lives, but sadly, there are times
where that's the best or only option available.

Joachim

Troy Parker wrote:

> In article <3D37BE2F.6BA30B3D@c2i.net>, Joachim Froholt wrote:
>
> > > > > Not to mention the fact that while in the US you may consider $600 a
> > > > > week poor, in other, not so lucky parts of the world it can be a lot.
> > > > > This is a simple fact that is normally overlooked by US citizens.
> > > >
> > > > You mean there are US citizens that *know* that there is a world around
> > > > them???
> > > > I always though all the normal US dude knows about "Paris" is that it is
> > > > located in Texas...
> > > >
> > > > Ciao, Alfred
> > >
> > > NAH. We all know it's in that fun loving country that didn't want to
> > > extradite
> > > terrorists connected with Sept. 11th if they might face the death penalty
> > > in the US if convicted!
> > >
> > > Gotta love the froggies and their logic.  Create the Guillotine and carry
> > > out more public executions in short time then any other country then
> > > feel so guilty about it later that no person seems to deserve execution.
> > > Regardless of the crime impact.
> >
> > No human being has the right to convict another human being to death. Death
> > penalty is barbaric, and so is any country still practicing it.
> >
> > Joachim
>
> We're talking about a man like Hitler. Pray tell what you'd have done
> with him.

Put him in prison for the rest of his life, ofcourse.

Joachim

Angelo wrote:

> "Henrik Grindal Bakken" <hgb@ifi.uio.no> wrote in message
>
> > > one who's successfully murdered thousands upon thousans of people
> > > who's only crime was to show up for work that day, only to have tons
> > > of rubble and burning fuel bury them alive screaming as they became
> > > a crater in one of our largest cities, as the rest of the country
> > > watched in horror as they watched live on TV hundreds of people
> > > jumping out of windows like lemmings to their death as the skyline
> > > of the city falls with them.
> >
> > Yes, it's an extremely nasty crime that was commited, and obviously
> > they should face very severe punishment, but there are many who just
> > don't believe in the death penalty as anything worth considering, and
> > when the Americans can't promise that they will absent from DP, then
> > the terrorist won't be extradited.
>
> I'm glad we didn't feel that way about helping France to regain
> her sovereignty.  Maybe we should have in hindsight now given
> her current BLIND problem!
> Makes you wonder IF France is a neighbor in NATO or not.
> More mealy mouth excuses when hard decisions come down the
> line.  You are asked to stand and chose to lie down and play
> dead.  Guess we will have to remember that should history
> repeat itself there!

Get a hold of yourself, man! No need to go completely crazy on us. What
you're saying makes no sense at all, and it's got nothing to do in this
debate.

> >
> > And, lets face it, it's not like these terrorist acts come out of
> > nothing.  I think that's one of the main problems with this entire
> > debate.  The question of _why_ terrorism continues to, ahem,
> > terrorise us, is never raised.  When you have people, like for example
> > the Palestinians, who live in suffering, have done so for umpteen
> > years and see _no_ way out of their hell, something is bound to
>
> Your ignorance of the world is truly ASTOUNDING.
> When you have a people taught from BIRTH to hate another
> don't give me this living in suffering cause/effect to the problems
> between Israel and the Palestine people.  Your rose colored glasses
> and simpleton view are SHOCKING.  Have you EVER been to
> Israel?  Palestine?  Good grief man, the problems there are NOT
> an external cause but a ideology festered and taught from birth
> on!

You're the one who's oversimplifying the situation. If the reason for the
problems is that people are taught to hate from their birth (which it often
seems to be), then the next and much more important question is _why_ are
they taught to hate. Most people don't hate others for the fun of it. You
like to talk about our glasses, well, I wonder what yours look like (probably
filled with stars and stripes obscuring your vision).

Joachim

> > And, lets face it, it's not like these terrorist acts come out of
> > nothing.  I think that's one of the main problems with this entire
> > debate.  The question of _why_ terrorism continues to, ahem,
> > terrorise us, is never raised.  When you have people, like for example
> > the Palestinians, who live in suffering, have done so for umpteen
> > years and see _no_ way out of their hell, something is bound to
>
> Your ignorance of the world is truly ASTOUNDING.
So is yours.
What you say is what you are taught by American politicians. See the
similarity here...?
All the problems the world is facing are routed to economy, nothing else.
Politics/Ideology is always created after such a problem surfaces to support
the economical reason.

> an external cause but a ideology festered and taught from birth
> on!
Correct. However the problem roots much deeper and the US helping the
parties in ways it thinks profitable did not help to resolve the situation.

> Such a load of HORSESHIT!  The US is "responsible" for poverty
> and starvation in other countries!!!!!!!
It is, in several cases.
One good example is the millions of tons of food *destroyed* yearly to
balance the cost of food, and to keep stock-exchanges stable. You could give
that food to the starving, but that would cause the stocks to fall, so its
better to destroy them.
But it's not only the US, but pretty much any other country as well. It
would be hard to market this thing for the citizens to understand.

Istv�n

> Agent Orange?  GUILTY, we poisoned EVERYONE there due to
> not having the knowledge of it's consequences we do now.
> Why stop there? How about DDT? Thalidomide?  how many other
> substances now have 20/20 hindsight on their consequences?
And the list goes on and on...

>
> You really are ignorant of history.  Ignorance alone is sad.
> Willful ignorance is pathetic on your part.  Please do some
> studying first, it's not like the information is secret.
It is. Just you don't know the parts that are secret.
Take the Gulf-War as an example. Some top secret info was recently leaked,
and its quite shocking. The "usual" untested drugs to American fighters
causing cancer and stuff recently, and the tens of thousands of completely
innocent people killed, that were not allowed to be broadcasted only the
glorious bombings where you couldn't see what was going on for real.
Have you ever noticed exactly the same type of bombing sequences are shown
from Afghanistan...? Or close-ups after the bombings, but only from "clean"
areas...? That this time no journalist was allowed...?
After the Gulf War leakage the secrets and facts will probably be better
hidden.
You'll know the *truth* about what happened there in a minimum of 50 years
time, maybe more when those responsible will all be dead.

Istv�n

> Interesting info.  For all perception though it is infamously
> known as the "French Guillotine" though.  France made
> it famous.  Strange irony there with the originator being
> a "humanitarian reformer" ;-)

Yes, "humanitarian reformers" are probably responsible for other interesting
devices as well ;)

Istv�n

> Sure there's a chance, but remember, we have liberals here too 8^)
> I give  John "Walker" Lindh pretty good odds he'll get life in prison
> watching the Cartoon Channel and Nick at Nite. Right now there's a
ROTFL. Isn't that itself punishment enough...? ;)
Anyway this is what I was referring to when I said that prisons shouldn't be
treated as holiday-camps.

> > Yes, it's an extremely nasty crime that was commited, and obviously
> > they should face very severe punishment,
Yes, they SHOULD. But not their country and innocent people.

> Is this the part where I'm told I deserve it because I'm an Evil
> American? Is this where I'm told I have to pay the "Sins of the
> Fathers" and world suffering is my fault? World hunger, Aids, plague,
> disease, famine, drought, there all my fault because I'm an American
> and I was asking for it eventually because I ignored the plights of
> others.
>
> I can take it, I'm used to it. I hear it all the time. Lay it on I
> deserve it. I've heard it all before and just accept it now. It's
> something my children will unfortunately have to endure as well,
> through no fault of their own.
No, you are not the one to blame. In fact the large majority of US citizens
are not to blame. Just like peasants in Afghanistan are not to blame. Most
people do not have control over what "their" countries do, or why. It is
always certain groups, political forces, economic lobbies, traders etc.,
basically groups with specific interest economic or otherwise are to blame
for the most horrible crimes committed, yet in the public politics this fact
is always simplified to blaming a country for whatever.

> And what is France, or the rest of the world doing about it? What
> should you do? What should we do? What should we have done? Does it
> evem natter? Why is "Western Civilization" both at fault for "Unwanted
> Interference" and "Not doing anything" *at the same time*? Why is it
> not Russia's fault? Englands? China?
Actually *this* time it's the direct consequence of "high-politics" of the
US, the result of incompetent and short-sighted decisions, that can't be
amended by now, but other times it was pretty much any other country you can
name...!
A very good fiction novel is Replay by Ken Grimwood, that is not directly
related, but raises certain very interesting points on "what if". Highly
recommended.

>
> "Look, people are suffering and America isn't doing anything" ...As the
> *world* does nothing either! It's America's fault.
>
> "Look, Iraq invaded Kuwait, and America is interfering!" You can't be
> American and win, any way anything turns out it's either our fault for
> doing something, or NOT doing it.
It was a strictly economic interest to protect Kuwait that time.

> That's our job too, We're the worlds whore and scapegoat.
Not really. You may be told you are. Since WW2 America has built its
"Roman-Empire" over the Earth and there were both good and bad decisions
during these decades. Good decisions go unnoticed by human/politics nature,
so only the bad remains ;)
However supporting such an empire does cost. The Russians did not have the
funds to continue their very own version, the US had - but their citizens
sometimes must pay dearly for it.

> damn politics...
Agreed :)))

>
> Back on topic, how do the french feel about software piracy :^/
LOL.

Istv�n

> Usually when someone starts a war, people die. Bush didn't start the
> war. We Were Attacked.

Sounds like "On the Beach" Highly recommended fiction.

Istv�n

On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:28:13 +0100, "Bikerdude" <bikerdude@NOSPAM.com>
wrote:

>DAVID YOUR A FUCKING COCK PUTTING AN INDIVIDUALS PRIVATE ADDRESS UP HERE

Yo, dippy.  you just reposted it yourself...

Pot, Kettle and Black applies here.

"Link" <BillGates@Microsoft.Com> wrote in message
news:QF9_8.2144$Hy1.37666@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> > > You had better come to grips with the reality that some people will
just
> > > kill period because they've got fuck all else to do and fuck all to
live
> > > for. You answer to scociety's problems is to kill people. Well what do
> you
> > > know! *Their* answer to life's problems is to kill people too! Vicious
> > > fucking circle until enough people get smart enough to change things.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Yup the same vicious circle that has enabled you to sit there snug
> > and safe to post such trash.  Think about that for a moment and
> > the thousands that brought that moment to you.
> >
> > You are of the ilk that anyone can be "cured" for the things
> > that people are executed for.  Must be a nice sheltered world
> > you live in.
>
> Thats a load of bollocks and I certainly never suggested that anyone can
or
> can't be 'cured'. What I said was that when our whole fuckin scociety is
> mature enough we wont be breeding fuckwits who go out and kill people.
Read
> what people are saying before commenting you useless twat.
>

Like I said "your" utopia promise.  Only one problem.
Humanity in all its beauty AND ugliness.
Your words above "we won't be breeding fuckwits who go out and kill people"

How many do you stand by and let be murdered before taking the hard
decision?
The only thing useless is your juvenile responses to a problem far beyond
your obvious coping skills.  Don't worry, others will take on the hard
decisions for you since you are incapable of addressing them.

            Jim

"Link" <BillGates@Microsoft.Com> wrote in message
news:VJ9_8.2188$Hy1.37575@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> > > Erm.........are we talking about Bush here or Bin-Laden?
> > > You do realise that more inocent people have died as a direct result
of
> > > Bush's policies post 911 than were killed on the day.
> >
> > Oh yea, I forgot, the WAR. "Erm..."
> >
> > Usually when someone starts a war, people die. Bush didn't start the
> > war. We Were Attacked.
>
> Oh fuck off and get a grip. This 'war' has been going on for decades and
its
> all about money. If you think for one micro-second that anything that our
> governments do is ever done out of a sense of moral duty you are living in
a
> fucking dream world.
>


Ahhh another "it's the THEY conspiracy"  THEY do this and
THEY have that objective.  Who the fuck do you think "THEY"
are in your government.  It's YOU AND I dumb-ass.

So easy to sidestep a problem and blame this mysterious THEY
organization.  Try facing a problem for once in your life.
Sad.

            Jim

"Troy Parker" <tparker66@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.17a2f428e1c11b7998990a@news-server.nc.rr.com...
> In article <VJ9_8.2188$Hy1.37575@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>, Link
> wrote:
> > > > Erm.........are we talking about Bush here or Bin-Laden?
> > > > You do realise that more inocent people have died as a direct result
of
> > > > Bush's policies post 911 than were killed on the day.
> > >
> > > Oh yea, I forgot, the WAR. "Erm..."
> > >
> > > Usually when someone starts a war, people die. Bush didn't start the
> > > war. We Were Attacked.
> >
> > Oh fuck off and get a grip. This 'war' has been going on for decades and
its
> > all about money. If you think for one micro-second that anything that
our
> > governments do is ever done out of a sense of moral duty you are living
in a
> > fucking dream world.
>
> Oh, you're one of those.
> --
> Doughnuts are my downfall

Yup, he has the "THEY" conspiracy problem.  Everything bad
is done by the "THEY" organization.  We'll just ignore the fact
that our governments are comprised of individuals from ALL
of us.  It is a nice way to avoid any hard decision though.
Always blame the THEY organization.

            Jim