🚀 go-pugleaf

Hans,

You might be surprised to know that this young woman was probably feeling
exactly the same way you were.  She found you attractive but couldn't read
your body language as to what you were feeling about her.  And so, she kept
her face neutral in order to protect her pride and as a result of shyness.

I think for both groups, Autistics and for NTs, life has a lot of near
misses.  :o)

Fargo

Hans Kamp <hanskamp@introweb.nl> wrote in message
news:937592853.604647@tbird.introweb.nl...
> I was at the railway station and I was looking for a seat to wait for the
> train. There was no seat without a women, so I stand for a while (I am too
> shy to sit near a woman or girl, unless it is a very little girl). I
> overcame my shyness and I sat down on a seat with a young pretty
attractive
> women. I was reading something.
>
> The woman right of me looked at me 6 or 7 times in just a few minutes that
I
> sat near her. I found her attractive so I looked at her, but no so often
> that she looked at me. The first few times that she looked at me, I looked
> away. The following times I keep on looking at her, but with the same face
> that she uses for looking at me. I tried to know what she is up to. What
> does she expect from me?
>
> If she looks at me, because of my attractiveness, it flatters me a bit.
But
> if it is because of my autism, of weird behaviour, I prefer her not to
look
> at me.
>
> Then the train is coming. I stood up, and she looked at me for several
> seconds... pretty long. She didn't smile or say "hello" and nor did I.
When
> a woman looks at me with a neutral face, I don't see a reason to smile at
> me. Maybe only if she is attractive. When she smiles at me, I will pretty
> often smile back, no matter whether she is attractive or not. When I know
> her, I will always smile back!
>
> Neutral faces start to irritate me, because I don't know why they want
from
> me. In fact I feel the same as what women feel, when male strangers look
at
> her.
>
> Hans Kamp.
>
>
>

Fargo <wyndspelle@zianet.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
37e29bfa.0@oracle.zianet.com...
> Hans,
>
> You might be surprised to know that this young woman was probably feeling
> exactly the same way you were.  She found you attractive but couldn't read
> your body language as to what you were feeling about her.

In fact I deliberately didn't show any signals and I wasn't intended to do
that. I might do it when saw more often. But the following day I didn't see
her. Maybe her train trip wasn't a daily trip.

> And so, she kept
> her face neutral in order to protect her pride and as a result of shyness.

Or she might be careful.

Hans Kamp.

No Name <nikhil@ihug.co.nz> schreef in berichtnieuws
7rufei$1vu$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz...
> The truth is that you won't know why she was looking at you, unless you do
> something simple to test it. When someone looks at me for prolonged
periods
> of time.. with a neutral face... I just give them a huge smile.. it always
> throws them off.

You mean an artificial or an exaggerated smile?

Some weeks ago I was at a pub. A girl was looking at me very often. I
sometimes looked at her, but she very, irritatingly often looked at me. I
thought: "Let me please her, and look at her." She give me an artificial
smile, and I got angry. But I didn't show her my anger, but I try to
completely ignore her. After that she continues looking at me and talking,
and also her male friends began to look at me. But that looking has nothing
to do with being interested... I think they are gossiping about me, or
telling stinking jokes. Until I type this, I tried to forget that whole
group.

> If someone is looking at you for reasons other than being
> attracted you.. a smile generally puts them off and they don't do it
again.

But I think that I will hurt people that are genuinely interested in me.

> If she was attracted you.. she probably would have returned the smile..
and
> you'd have been off!! :) I find that lots of people don't know what to do
> when you smile at them.. its strange.. as if they expect there to be an
> ulterior motive behind the smile.. sometimes a smile is just that: a nice
> smile. Not only does it attract people, but it also filters out those who
> aren't interest in YOU.

In my youth I discovered that it filters out everyone. First: they try to
make eye-contact wit me. Second: I want to be friendly and smile back.
Third: they bully me, because I showed them my genuine interest.

Well... I think they are messing with me.

Hans Kamp.

The truth is that you won't know why she was looking at you, unless you do
something simple to test it. When someone looks at me for prolonged periods
of time.. with a neutral face... I just give them a huge smile.. it always
throws them off. If someone is looking at you for reasons other than being
attracted you.. a smile generally puts them off and they don't do it again.
If she was attracted you.. she probably would have returned the smile.. and
you'd have been off!! :) I find that lots of people don't know what to do
when you smile at them.. its strange.. as if they expect there to be an
ulterior motive behind the smile.. sometimes a smile is just that: a nice
smile. Not only does it attract people, but it also filters out those who
aren't interest in YOU.

Sonia.
(hoping she won't be called stupid again)
It's not that life is short, its just that you're dead for SO long.


Hans Kamp wrote in message <937592853.604647@tbird.introweb.nl>...
>I was at the railway station and I was looking for a seat to wait for the
>train. There was no seat without a women, so I stand for a while (I am too
>shy to sit near a woman or girl, unless it is a very little girl). I
>overcame my shyness and I sat down on a seat with a young pretty attractive
>women. I was reading something.
>
>The woman right of me looked at me 6 or 7 times in just a few minutes that
I
>sat near her. I found her attractive so I looked at her, but no so often
>that she looked at me. The first few times that she looked at me, I looked
>away. The following times I keep on looking at her, but with the same face
>that she uses for looking at me. I tried to know what she is up to. What
>does she expect from me?
>
>If she looks at me, because of my attractiveness, it flatters me a bit. But
>if it is because of my autism, of weird behaviour, I prefer her not to look
>at me.
>
>Then the train is coming. I stood up, and she looked at me for several
>seconds... pretty long. She didn't smile or say "hello" and nor did I. When
>a woman looks at me with a neutral face, I don't see a reason to smile at
>me. Maybe only if she is attractive. When she smiles at me, I will pretty
>often smile back, no matter whether she is attractive or not. When I know
>her, I will always smile back!
>
>Neutral faces start to irritate me, because I don't know why they want from
>me. In fact I feel the same as what women feel, when male strangers look at
>her.
>
>Hans Kamp.
>
>
>

Sonia <nikhil@ihug.co.nz> schreef in berichtnieuws
7s3bpc$9cr$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz...
>
> Hans Kamp wrote in message <937741733.947557@tbird.introweb.nl>...
> >
> >No Name <nikhil@ihug.co.nz> schreef in berichtnieuws
> >7rufei$1vu$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz...
> >> The truth is that you won't know why she was looking at you, unless you
> do
> >> something simple to test it. When someone looks at me for prolonged
> >periods
> >> of time.. with a neutral face... I just give them a huge smile.. it
> always
> >> throws them off.
> >
> >You mean an artificial or an exaggerated smile?
>
> A genuine smile ofcourse.

I see... I interpreted "huge" as "extremely big", but I didn't take that
word literally. (Sometimes it *is* a problem that English is not my native
tongue). I took it ironically.

> If you're interested in the person, a genuine
> smile should naturally.. no? Well, it does to me anyway. Besides... people
> should smile at one another anyway.. it doesn't take much and often it
makes
> the recipient feel quite good. Smiles are so incredibly attractive,.. they
> just exude confidence and happiness.

Indeed, and they should be. But smiling to someone is making contact with
someone (eye-contact), but unfortunately the bullies taught me, not ever to
make contact with them. So smiling got out of the question. No smiling = no
trouble.

> You don't have to be really chipper...
> but a nice smile definitely shows people that you're comfortable to be
with.

Indeed, that is true. But I don't want to be betrayed by them.

> I think it also has to be part of your nature.. but people DO learn to
smile
> and love it.

I do often smile, but not too often to strangers. It can be catastrophal, I
learned in the past. I think that isn't true anymore.

> >Some weeks ago I was at a pub. A girl was looking at me very often. I
> >sometimes looked at her, but she very, irritatingly often looked at me. I
> >thought: "Let me please her, and look at her." She give me an artificial
> >smile, and I got angry. But I didn't show her my anger, but I try to
> >completely ignore her. After that she continues looking at me and
talking,
> >and also her male friends began to look at me. But that looking has
nothing
> >to do with being interested... I think they are gossiping about me, or
> >telling stinking jokes. Until I type this, I tried to forget that whole
> >group.
> >
> >
> >But I think that I will hurt people that are genuinely interested in me.
>
> WHy do you say that? It doesn't have be a HUGE smile.. you can just give
her
> a hint of a smile, that's enough to show someone that you're interested..
> the key is being subtle.

I am a bit scared of what happened, if I _would_ smile.

> >In my youth I discovered that it filters out everyone. First: they try to
> >make eye-contact wit me. Second: I want to be friendly and smile back.
> >Third: they bully me, because I showed them my genuine interest.
>
> Hmmm.. that hasn't been my experience. Do you think its different because
> I'm a woman, probably is. Again, I think its because people have lost the
> importance of smiling. Its just one of those things that can make others
> feel good, and you too. Unfortunately, sometimes people think that when
you
> smile at them that you're mocking them. ... and that may not be the case
at
> all.

Smiling gave other people - especially strangers - a reason to bully me, and
putting me in deep trouble. In fact they taught me not to smile to
strangers. I am not only raised by my parents, but I am also raised
negatively by the neighbourhood...

> >Well... I think they are messing with me.
>
> I'm sure some people ARE like that... but it never crosses my mind when I
> smile at someone.

It crosses my mind just too often. :-((

Hans Kamp.

Hans Kamp wrote in message <937741733.947557@tbird.introweb.nl>...
>
>No Name <nikhil@ihug.co.nz> schreef in berichtnieuws
>7rufei$1vu$1@newsource.ihug.co.nz...
>> The truth is that you won't know why she was looking at you, unless you
do
>> something simple to test it. When someone looks at me for prolonged
>periods
>> of time.. with a neutral face... I just give them a huge smile.. it
always
>> throws them off.
>
>You mean an artificial or an exaggerated smile?

A genuine smile ofcourse. If you're interested in the person, a genuine
smile should naturally.. no? Well, it does to me anyway. Besides... people
should smile at one another anyway.. it doesn't take much and often it makes
the recipient feel quite good. Smiles are so incredibly attractive,.. they
just exude confidence and happiness. You don't have to be really chipper...
but a nice smile definitely shows people that you're comfortable to be with.
I think it also has to be part of your nature.. but people DO learn to smile
and love it.

>
>Some weeks ago I was at a pub. A girl was looking at me very often. I
>sometimes looked at her, but she very, irritatingly often looked at me. I
>thought: "Let me please her, and look at her." She give me an artificial
>smile, and I got angry. But I didn't show her my anger, but I try to
>completely ignore her. After that she continues looking at me and talking,
>and also her male friends began to look at me. But that looking has nothing
>to do with being interested... I think they are gossiping about me, or
>telling stinking jokes. Until I type this, I tried to forget that whole
>group.
>
>
>But I think that I will hurt people that are genuinely interested in me.

WHy do you say that? It doesn't have be a HUGE smile.. you can just give her
a hint of a smile, that's enough to show someone that you're interested..
the key is being subtle.
>
>
>In my youth I discovered that it filters out everyone. First: they try to
>make eye-contact wit me. Second: I want to be friendly and smile back.
>Third: they bully me, because I showed them my genuine interest.

Hmmm.. that hasn't been my experience. Do you think its different because
I'm a woman, probably is. Again, I think its because people have lost the
importance of smiling. Its just one of those things that can make others
feel good, and you too. Unfortunately, sometimes people think that when you
smile at them that you're mocking them. ... and that may not be the case at
all.
>
>Well... I think they are messing with me.

I'm sure some people ARE like that... but it never crosses my mind when I
smile at someone.
>
Sonia

>
>
>
>

Eric Pepke <pepke@gnv.fdt.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
Pine.LNX.4.05.9909210811410.24314-100000@yoda.fdt.net...
> On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Hans Kamp wrote:
> > Indeed, and they should be. But smiling to someone is making contact
with
> > someone (eye-contact), but unfortunately the bullies taught me, not ever
to
> > make contact with them. So smiling got out of the question. No smiling =
no
> > trouble.
>
> That's part of my experience as well.  The only way to survive as a kid in
> New York City is to keep one's gaze fixated on the sidewalk around three
> meters in front of where you are.

Also I did. But I had to do it anyway, because in the Netherlands are many
dogs :-), that are shitting everywhere!

> > Indeed, that is true. But I don't want to be betrayed by them.
>
> Unfortunately, I think, based on attempting to find one and failing, that
> there is no mechanism to be entirely safe from the possibility of
> betrayal.
>
> BTW, since people have been welcoming me back to a.s.s., I'd also like to
> welcome you back.  I hadn't seen your postings here in a while, and I had
> missed them.

Yes, partly that is because of changing of my interests. Some weeks ago, I
was completely addicted to a new computer game I bought. Then the newsgroups
get less attention than before.

> > I do often smile, but not too often to strangers. It can be
catastrophal, I
> > learned in the past. I think that isn't true anymore.
>
> That's the trick: convincing those parts of yourself that still think
> you're 4 or 12 or 23 or whatever that this is no longer the case.

Yes, indeed. Very terrible experiences are stuck in my memory, and it is not
easy to thrive them out.

> > > I'm sure some people ARE like that... but it never crosses my mind
when I
> > > smile at someone.
> >
> > It crosses my mind just too often. :-((
>
> It seems that it's due to differential experiences.  It's very easy to be
> trained out of or into a certain action due to some traumatic early
> experiences.  Some of these actions can be quite commonplace and ordinary.
> Unfortunately, when you try to explain this to someone, they generally
> can't understand where you are coming from unless they have experienced
> the same thing, and their responses often come across as dismissive and
> trivializing.  They are not meant as such (at least not usually), but
> that's how they come across.
>
> What I have found helpful is to say to myself over and over again that I
> am a member of a social species and thus have a right to smile at anyone I
> choose.  This seems to work a little bit, although it takes a lot of
> repitition.

I think, I am not that far, yet.

Hans Kamp.

On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Hans Kamp wrote:
> Indeed, and they should be. But smiling to someone is making contact with
> someone (eye-contact), but unfortunately the bullies taught me, not ever to
> make contact with them. So smiling got out of the question. No smiling = no
> trouble.

That's part of my experience as well.  The only way to survive as a kid in
New York City is to keep one's gaze fixated on the sidewalk around three
meters in front of where you are.

> Indeed, that is true. But I don't want to be betrayed by them.

Unfortunately, I think, based on attempting to find one and failing, that
there is no mechanism to be entirely safe from the possibility of
betrayal.

BTW, since people have been welcoming me back to a.s.s., I'd also like to
welcome you back.  I hadn't seen your postings here in a while, and I had
missed them.

> I do often smile, but not too often to strangers. It can be catastrophal, I
> learned in the past. I think that isn't true anymore.

That's the trick: convincing those parts of yourself that still think
you're 4 or 12 or 23 or whatever that this is no longer the case.

> > I'm sure some people ARE like that... but it never crosses my mind when I
> > smile at someone.
> 
> It crosses my mind just too often. :-((

It seems that it's due to differential experiences.  It's very easy to be
trained out of or into a certain action due to some traumatic early
experiences.  Some of these actions can be quite commonplace and ordinary.
Unfortunately, when you try to explain this to someone, they generally
can't understand where you are coming from unless they have experienced
the same thing, and their responses often come across as dismissive and
trivializing.  They are not meant as such (at least not usually), but
that's how they come across.

What I have found helpful is to say to myself over and over again that I
am a member of a social species and thus have a right to smile at anyone I
choose.  This seems to work a little bit, although it takes a lot of
repitition.

-Eric

Eric Pepke <pepke@gnv.fdt.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
Pine.LNX.4.05.9909220838080.6309-100000@yoda.fdt.net...
> On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Hans Kamp wrote:
> > Yes, partly that is because of changing of my interests. Some weeks ago,
I
> > was completely addicted to a new computer game I bought. Then the
newsgroups
> > get less attention than before.
>
> What game?

Civilization II Test Of Time (more info at http://www.civilizationii.com).

> I do remember a time when you were (cross)posting to the social phobia
> newsgroup but not to a.s.s.  I thought you were mad at us.

No, I wasn't. If I pretty suddenly stop reacting, there is something
addictive in my "neighborhood". A game, some newsgroups. I was also a part
of a flame war about the Dutch pronunciation.

> > > What I have found helpful is to say to myself over and over again that
I
> > > am a member of a social species and thus have a right to smile at
anyone I
> > > choose.  This seems to work a little bit, although it takes a lot of
> > > repitition.
> >
> > I think, I am not that far, yet.
>
> You might try it, though, even if you don't believe it.  Also, I have
> found a lot of benefit from looking at books on primatology.  Jane
> Goodall's are pretty good.

What is primatology about?

Hans Kamp.

On Wed, 22 Sep 1999, Hans Kamp wrote:
> > What game?
> 
> Civilization II Test Of Time (more info at http://www.civilizationii.com).

I like that one.  My ex-stepson-to-be plays it all the time.

> > You might try it, though, even if you don't believe it.  Also, I have
> > found a lot of benefit from looking at books on primatology.  Jane
> > Goodall's are pretty good.
> 
> What is primatology about?

Study of primates--that is, our closest nonhuman relatives and ancestors.
It's fascinating, because they are enough like humans to have many of the
same social interactions, but they don't have language, and they're
distant enough that there isn't a taboo on studying them.

-Eric

On Tue, 21 Sep 1999, Hans Kamp wrote:
> Yes, partly that is because of changing of my interests. Some weeks ago, I
> was completely addicted to a new computer game I bought. Then the newsgroups
> get less attention than before.

What game?

I do remember a time when you were (cross)posting to the social phobia
newsgroup but not to a.s.s.  I thought you were mad at us.

> > What I have found helpful is to say to myself over and over again that I
> > am a member of a social species and thus have a right to smile at anyone I
> > choose.  This seems to work a little bit, although it takes a lot of
> > repitition.
> 
> I think, I am not that far, yet.

You might try it, though, even if you don't believe it.  Also, I have
found a lot of benefit from looking at books on primatology.  Jane
Goodall's are pretty good.

-Eric

Hans Kamp <hanskamp@introweb.nl> wrote in message
news:937592853.604647@tbird.introweb.nl...
> I was at the railway station and I was looking for a seat to wait for the
> train. There was no seat without a women, so I stand for a while (I am too
> shy to sit near a woman or girl, unless it is a very little girl). I
> overcame my shyness and I sat down on a seat with a young pretty
attractive
> women. I was reading something.
>
> The woman right of me looked at me 6 or 7 times in just a few minutes that
I
> sat near her. I found her attractive so I looked at her, but no so often
> that she looked at me. The first few times that she looked at me, I looked
> away. The following times I keep on looking at her, but with the same face
> that she uses for looking at me. I tried to know what she is up to. What
> does she expect from me?
>
> If she looks at me, because of my attractiveness, it flatters me a bit.
But
> if it is because of my autism, of weird behaviour, I prefer her not to
look
> at me.
>
> Then the train is coming. I stood up, and she looked at me for several
> seconds... pretty long. She didn't smile or say "hello" and nor did I.
When
> a woman looks at me with a neutral face, I don't see a reason to smile at
> me. Maybe only if she is attractive. When she smiles at me, I will pretty
> often smile back, no matter whether she is attractive or not. When I know
> her, I will always smile back!
>
> Neutral faces start to irritate me, because I don't know why they want
from
> me. In fact I feel the same as what women feel, when male strangers look
at
> her.
>

Hi Hans Kamp! You have no idea how much I'm happy to read your story. Hey, I
think we can cooperate: I have the bus and you have the train!

There are two important factors here: self confidence and social
intelligence. Social intelligence is essential for being able to interpret
the girl's behavior, and self confidence is essential for trusting the
judgments you make. The problem you and I have can be either in the
interpretation level or in the confidence level. It can also be on both
levels.

What you call neutral face is usually not natural at all. In your story, for
example, it looks clear that she had interest in you. The problem is that
you did not have enough evidence to be certain about this interpretation.

I have one train story to contribute here. It happened to me a month ago. I
took a train and there was no place to sit alone. I sat in front of a girl,
in the diagonal of a separating table. I was attracted to her but not too
much. I did not feel any clear sign from her. I looked at her several times
but she did not react. Only one time she looked at me but I did not know if
it is a good look or a bad one. It was embarrassing to sit there all the
drive because there is nowhere to look. There was tension between us but
quite a medicore attraction. After 15 minutes or so she leaned a little
forward and put her elbows on the table. I decided to react immediately: I
leaned forward at her and said dimly: will you want to... She did not give
any attention, as if I was speaking to someone else and not to her. However,
I had no way back so I stared to be myself, which means that I slightly
flourished my hand in front of her wondering eyes until she finally noticed
me. Then I asked her again if she likes to talk with me to pass the time.
She said that she is not a speaker but she allowed me to talk at her. I
started with saying to her quietly that it is embarrassing to sit in such a
way in the train and that there is no place to put the eyes. I also said
that I prefer to take the bus (!) usually. Then we started to talk. The
start was good because we both had silly reasons for our drive, but it was
not an interesting talk and somehow it faded and it became silent again
between us. But then somehow we started to talk again and for around 5
minutes it was fun. We smiled lovably and became more attracted. Her smile
was really cute, and so was mine I guess from her reaction: She started
imitating my postures. But then it faded again because I could not say to
myself that I want her. Actually I felt that I don't want it. There was no
real matching. I felt it. I hink she did not feel the same as I did. She
seemed to want it to continue. It was sad for me to do so but I did not
initiate any further. I just said: see you, and left the train in my stop
while she continued to go with the train.

Oren

> Hans Kamp.
>
>
>

Oren Eilam <oren@post.tau.ac.il> schreef in berichtnieuws
7sk54l$nub$1@goethe.tau.ac.il...
>
> Hi Hans Kamp! You have no idea how much I'm happy to read your story. Hey,
I
> think we can cooperate: I have the bus and you have the train!

Yes, I am going to my work by train. Do you often take the bus?
The most thing I described here and in related newsgroups news:soc.women and
news:bit.listserv.autism (since I am also autistic, but my shyness is a much
bigger problem than my autism) happened at the railwaystation, because I am
waiting for the train.

> There are two important factors here: self confidence and social
> intelligence. Social intelligence is essential for being able to interpret
> the girl's behavior, and self confidence is essential for trusting the
> judgments you make.

Socially I am not very bright, because I am very mildly autistic. I often
understand behaviour of other people, but for me sexual behaviour is
difficult to interpret, and when I was younger, I didn't even respect the
sexuality of others. Lack of self confidence is a much bigger problem!

> The problem you and I have can be either in the
> interpretation level or in the confidence level. It can also be on both
> levels.

I think this is true in my case.

> What you call neutral face is usually not natural at all. In your story,
for
> example, it looks clear that she had interest in you. The problem is that
> you did not have enough evidence to be certain about this interpretation.

I wasn't quite certain. The only thing I did is looking some times at her,
but I often looked away too. I often don't know what to do next. Yesterday,
for example, I was in a queue in McDonald's waiting for my turn. I was
talking with a friend at the left of me. A very attractive woman was at the
right of me, and looked at me 3 or 4 times in the few minutes I was talking
with my friend and waiting for my turn. (There were 5 or 6 queues of people
wanting to mend something).
The least shy I am when I am walking in the city and there is a woman on her
bike. She goes in the opposite direction than me, so that she can see me.
Sometimes we interchange smiles.

> I have one train story to contribute here. It happened to me a month ago.
I
> took a train and there was no place to sit alone. I sat in front of a
girl,
> in the diagonal of a separating table. I was attracted to her but not too
> much. I did not feel any clear sign from her. I looked at her several
times
> but she did not react.

Many women in my region do not often react. Sometimes there is a smile.

> Only one time she looked at me but I did not know if
> it is a good look or a bad one. It was embarrassing to sit there all the
> drive because there is nowhere to look.

In that case I have often something to read in my bag: a newspaper, a book,
and printed e-mails or web pages. Sometimes I print a lot of things, and I
put it in my bag (sometimes my bag get messed :-). When I feel scared by a
woman I take these things and start reading. While reading I look at the
woman for a fraction of a second, and I continued reading. There is one time
that a woman ask me: "What are you reading?" I said shyly: "Oh, something
about computers." Then a few minutes of silence. Then she asks me some more
questions, but between each of her questions there is very long silence
(normally the silence is a few seconds). Then I start asking questions back:
"What do you do (as work for example)?" etc. She and I got out, but she
didn't say anything to me, and we walked in a different direction. There was
no further contact.

> There was tension between us but
> quite a medicore attraction. After 15 minutes or so she leaned a little
> forward and put her elbows on the table. I decided to react immediately: I
> leaned forward at her and said dimly: will you want to... She did not give
> any attention, as if I was speaking to someone else and not to her.
However,
> I had no way back so I stared to be myself, which means that I slightly
> flourished my hand in front of her wondering eyes until she finally
noticed
> me. Then I asked her again if she likes to talk with me to pass the time.
> She said that she is not a speaker but she allowed me to talk at her. I
> started with saying to her quietly that it is embarrassing to sit in such
a
> way in the train and that there is no place to put the eyes.

These things sometimes happenes to me when sitting in an international
train. I often don't speak with people in an aeroplane. When I go abroad I
often take a flight.
I think the girl is a bit shy: "She is not a speaker."

> I also said
> that I prefer to take the bus (!) usually. Then we started to talk. The
> start was good because we both had silly reasons for our drive, but it was
> not an interesting talk and somehow it faded and it became silent again
> between us.

I think you could ask her: "Where are you traveling to?" I think this
question causes a long and interesting conversation. Of course she might
tell you: "I am going to..." and then she will mention her destination. You
could ask her what she will do there. Sometimes people asks me where I am
going, and what I will do there. It is strange to say, but towards
foreigners and especially towards Esperantists I am less shy.
I remember that I was talking with a woman that was an Esperanto beginner.
She thought that she will never learn that language. But I spoke Esperanto
to her, and she spoke English back. She told that she felt an odd-man-out
(or must I say odd-woman-out? :-) ), because she said: "Every Esperantist
has a wonderful time because they can talk with each other fluently! I am
just a komencanto (beginner), and I hardly speak Esperanto. I could talk
English with them, but that is not the purpose of the congress." I said: "I
think you have too few self-confidence. You understand everything what I was
saying in Esperanto. Your knowledge about it is better than you think!" So I
tried to give her more self-confidence: "It is not that bad!"

> But then somehow we started to talk again and for around 5
> minutes it was fun. We smiled lovably and became more attracted. Her smile
> was really cute, and so was mine I guess from her reaction: She started
> imitating my postures. But then it faded again because I could not say to
> myself that I want her. Actually I felt that I don't want it.

Yes... I recognize the same {sigh!}. When I feel comfortable with a woman,
there is much smiling and talking, but there is *just* smiling and talking,
nothing more.

> There was no
> real matching. I felt it. I hink she did not feel the same as I did. She
> seemed to want it to continue.

It is a bit contradicting: "She did not feel the same as I did." and "She
seemed to want it to continue." In my case, I never know which of these
sentences I must believe in. I almost always choose not to continue.

> It was sad for me to do so but I did not
> initiate any further. I just said: see you, and left the train in my stop
> while she continued to go with the train.

I sometimes have of this kind of moments. Lack of self confidence limits
this to talking and laughing, and nothing more. I never know for whom this
is sadder? For me or for the woman I was talking with?

--
Hans Kamp