🚀 go-pugleaf

Thank you Tala for responding in a courteous, non-condescending manner.


In article <2n77nu$80u@crl.crl.com>, Tala Brandeis <tala@crl.com> wrote:
>wat@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (William) writes:
>>	I don't have a problem with consistant behavior based rules --
>>things like "if you rape, you are bad".  What I heavily dislike
>>is a pre-judgement that TS's cannot be just as feminine (whatever
                                                           ^^^^^^^^
>>that means in a given context) as other women.  Of the TS's I
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Welllll;  Being a dyke probably has very little to do with being
>feminine, at least in the way most men understand feminine.  Actually,
>being a dyke has much more to do with being a woman and having 
>the consciousness of being female in a patriarchal culture.  
---
	Well, I emphasis what I wrote: whatever that means in a given
context.


>Those that "demand," "fight for their *rights* of inclsion," and
>generally make nuiscances of themselves will continue to be thought
>of in a bad light irrespective of their gender.  
---
	Two points here:

	1) if one's energy doesn't blend well with a group, hopefully there
would be mutual recognition of this and the two would part company
either forever or until growing has occurred such that the energies
do blend.  
	2) Gays that demand or fight for the rights of inclusion in our
society or make nuisances of themselves will continue to be thought of
in a bad light....  Isn't this the same notion?  The options that those
outside of the "group" face is either quietly walk away and just 
"submit" to things the way they are, or to try to change things.  Change
takes many forms and often isn't gentle or humble -- it can be, just
not often.

	Hopefully, the matching's of energy would be the best guide.  I
honestly don't know that I would feel comfortable in the space you describe
right now -- in 5-10 years, I dunno.  Hell, 10 years ago I was still
going to narrow-minded Christian churches.  I've definitely changed
since then.

>There is significant difference in wanting to be known as female
>and *being* female, woman.  Genitalia are the least of the requirements
>for entry into the culture of women, although if you want to cut 
>your dick off to gain entry, I won't stop you from persuing your 
>goal.  It won't help honey.  Women, while concerned about that 
>part of your anatomy in it's capacity as a weapon, are much more
>concerned about your behavior.  (Current behavior.)  
---
	So do you regard TS's as just chopping off their dicks to gain
entry to women's space?  That's sounds very much like that book "The
Hidden Empire" (does anyone have the full info on this book, I'd like
to check it out...thanks).

>There is a difference in discrimintation based on current behavior
>and past behavior.  Unfortunately for many transsexuals their current
>behavior is similar or the same in significat ways to the behavior
>in their "former" lives.  If their behavior is most similar to women
>and they identify as women, should be easy for them to be accepted
>as women unless they or someone else brings up the issue of their 
>former behavior and public identity.
---
	In full agreement.

>Now if the issue is the need for the person to identify as a 
>transsexual, then what is she doing in a women's group that is
>formed for the purpose of supporting women who have been raised
>as girls and women in this culture.
---
	"Need to identify as a transsexual"?  As opposed for a need to
identify with being a woman?

>"Transsexuals should at least have Women's Studies 201 prior to
>attempting to enter a women's only group."  While that may be
>out of the realm of many working class transsexual lesbians, 
>libraries do exist.  
---
	WS 201?  Like at UCSC?  Hmmm.  Reading lists of books might be good
though I would expect that a reading list you might suggest would be
more inline with dyke-feminism rather than just "general" womens
studies.  But that wouldn't stop you from offering one to people who
may not fully agree with you because they don't understand.  While you may
not have the patience to explain things to them in a language that
they can understand and that will help them gain understanding, perhaps
books might a good start.  Oh -- why "201" and not "101" -- is 201 
assuming 101 as a pre-req?

william
---
    Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing
    to give it to others.
                                    -- William Allen White