🚀 go-pugleaf

It seems CPick or cippic or whatever the fuck they're called is trying to
stick their nose up everybody's arse right now. Everybody is trying to
stall Voltage into submission but it ain't going to happen. People like
JMJimmy will be on the hook to Voltage for the rest of their natural born
days as will the other 2,300. Teksavvy has it all planned out trying to
make it look like they're doing their part trying to fend off Voltage
meantime Voltage already knows what is going to happen and has paid
Teksavvy handsomely already. CPick or Cpeker was the wild card but their
bullshit will soon be over and Voltage can issue the rest of the letters
and get their deserved money owing to them.

Some Guy wrote:

> I haven't seen much in the media about any recent court happenings in
> this case, and I haven't tried to wade through the Tek Savvy forum on
> DSLR to get a concise explanation of current events, so ...
>
> What exactly has been happening this month in that case?
>
> Have the courts ruled that TS is to hand over customer info?

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know
proper manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first
day on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to
help you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily
all the while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out
of your computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram.
Subscriber asks will that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the
next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE,
which one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world
downloads the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a
month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat
and out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the
A-Holes at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to
turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions
beyond the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

On 13-01-27 08:17, Some Guy wrote:
> I haven't seen much in the media about any recent court happenings in
> this case, and I haven't tried to wade through the Tek Savvy forum on
> DSLR to get a concise explanation of current events, so ...

Court has yet to decide on whether CIPPIC to to be allowed to intervene
and to what extent. (just arguments, or whether they can cross examine
Voltage/Canipre)

parties are negotiating on timelines they could live with with each type
of court decision on CIPPIC.

Anymore anonymous names i should know about on dsl reports? Remember
contempt of court is a criminal offense if you fly off the realm of all
Earthly reality in court.

JF Mezei wrote:

> On 13-01-27 08:17, Some Guy wrote:
> > I haven't seen much in the media about any recent court happenings in
> > this case, and I haven't tried to wade through the Tek Savvy forum on
> > DSLR to get a concise explanation of current events, so ...
>
> Court has yet to decide on whether CIPPIC to to be allowed to intervene
> and to what extent. (just arguments, or whether they can cross examine
> Voltage/Canipre)
>
> parties are negotiating on timelines they could live with with each type
> of court decision on CIPPIC.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks
will that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the
phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world
downloads the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a
month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn

schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

JF Mezei wrote:
 
> Court has yet to decide on whether CIPPIC to to be allowed to
> intervene and to what extent. (just arguments, or whether they
> can cross examine Voltage/Canipre)

Have any of the "soon-to-be-named" TS customers tried to organize
themselves into a group to discuss this - even if they do so
anonymously?

Would it help CIPPIC's efforts if instead of being an intervenor, they
were representing at least one TS customer (even if on a pro-bono basis)
?

Did CIPPIC even try to solicit any "soon-to-be-named" TS customers?

Have any of the TS customers in question come forward in court
(anonymously - through a lawyer) or would they have to identify
themselves to the court if they wanted to take some action at this stage
to try to prevent their identity from being disclosed to Voltage?

Since Tek Savvy knows who these customers are, and since TS has sent
them all letters, I wonder if TS could have set up a protected, private
forum and handed out individual username/password to these people via
the letters.  This would allow them (and only them) to interact
anonymously and privately with each other.  Did anyone think of doing
that?

On 13-01-27 23:28, Some Guy wrote:

> Have any of the "soon-to-be-named" TS customers tried to organize
> themselves into a group to discuss this - even if they do so
> anonymously?

None of them have asked to have a voice in court.

> Would it help CIPPIC's efforts if instead of being an intervenor, they
> were representing at least one TS customer (even if on a pro-bono basis)

This is debatable by non humans (aka: lawyers).  At this stage, the
debate is limited to whether the data provided by Canipre is good enough
to be considered evidence which would force TSI to release identities of
customer so that Voltage could take them to court.

> Did CIPPIC even try to solicit any "soon-to-be-named" TS customers?

This might jeoperdize its status as a "friend of the court" neutral
party. I know they have refused money.


> Have any of the TS customers in question come forward in court
> (anonymously - through a lawyer) 

No none. In fact, from what I heard, none paid to have a lawyer present
to hear what was going on.


> Since Tek Savvy knows who these customers are, and since TS has sent
> them all letters, I wonder if TS could have set up a protected, private
> forum and handed out individual username/password to these people via

From what I have heard through the grapevine, Teksavvy has provided the
means to help those suspects discuss the issue privatly.

JF Mezei wrote:
 
> At this stage, the debate is limited to whether the data provided
> by Canipre is good enough to be considered evidence which would
> force TSI to release identities of customer so that Voltage could
> take them to court.

How much of Tek's data-logging infrastructure (the servers that hand out
IP assignments and all associated gear) is known to the public or the
court at this point?

Is TS (or would TS) be reluctant to divulge that information?

I ask because it would seem that the reputation of that equipment (and
the compentency of how TS implimented and administered it) is central to
the question of the reliability and accuracy of the IP data which forms
the basis of Voltage's lawsuit.

Or does CIPPIC have enough info / knowledge about that equipment to
argue a case against it's reputation, methods or implimentation?

Or would CIPPIC argue against divulging TS customer info based on
something else - and what would that be? 

Open wifi connection?

Someone running a TOR node?

I've read how TS seems to be different than "other" Canadian ISP's in
how they've handled this situation in terms of refusing (or not) the
request by Voltage to identify who is behind these IP addresses.  What I
haven't heard is the context of when these other ISP's (Shaw among
them?) stood up and refused these requests (ie - when did these requests
happen, and who made them, and what was the eventual legal outcome?).

Was TS the only ISP to be dragged into court by Voltage?

Some Guy <Some@Guy.com> wrote in news:5106805B.4BD95028@Guy.com:

> JF Mezei wrote:
>  
>> At this stage, the debate is limited to whether the data provided
>> by Canipre is good enough to be considered evidence which would
>> force TSI to release identities of customer so that Voltage could
>> take them to court.
> 
> How much of Tek's data-logging infrastructure (the servers that hand out
> IP assignments and all associated gear) is known to the public or the
> court at this point?
> 
> Is TS (or would TS) be reluctant to divulge that information?
> 
> I ask because it would seem that the reputation of that equipment (and
> the compentency of how TS implimented and administered it) is central to
> the question of the reliability and accuracy of the IP data which forms
> the basis of Voltage's lawsuit.
> 
> Or does CIPPIC have enough info / knowledge about that equipment to
> argue a case against it's reputation, methods or implimentation?
> 
> Or would CIPPIC argue against divulging TS customer info based on
> something else - and what would that be? 
> 
> Open wifi connection?
> 
> Someone running a TOR node?
> 
> I've read how TS seems to be different than "other" Canadian ISP's in
> how they've handled this situation in terms of refusing (or not) the
> request by Voltage to identify who is behind these IP addresses.  What I
> haven't heard is the context of when these other ISP's (Shaw among
> them?) stood up and refused these requests (ie - when did these requests
> happen, and who made them, and what was the eventual legal outcome?).
> 
> Was TS the only ISP to be dragged into court by Voltage?
> 

I'm just guessing, but I'm thinking it was a serious miscalculation on 
Voltage's part that TS was "small enough" to intimidate into doing their 
trolling for them. After all, who wants' to take on Bell Canada and their 
bottomless pit of lawyers, when they can go after one of the "small" guys. 

While TS may not have clearly communicated what it was doing in defense of 
their customers early on (and, to be fair, that may well have been a legal 
necessity or strategy), I really, *really* don't think you're going to see 
them even approach rolling over and just giving their customer data to 
anyone. 

-Marc

Who could afford to hire a lawyer knowing full well you're on the hook for 5
grand large minimum to Voltage before you even check the old bank account to
see if you could afford a lawyer who could end up losing and you end up paying
more. No the smart thing to do is pay everything Voltage is asking for in the
letter with a premium as the Canadian dollar is falling due to recession
negative GDP and a housing crash in Canada Vis-a-Vis the U.S. dollar. It's
better than getting a good working over from Voltage's henchmen and being
crippled for life or worst maybe end up dead.

JF Mezei wrote:

> On 13-01-27 23:28, Some Guy wrote:
>
> > Have any of the "soon-to-be-named" TS customers tried to organize
> > themselves into a group to discuss this - even if they do so
> > anonymously?
>
> None of them have asked to have a voice in court.
>
> > Would it help CIPPIC's efforts if instead of being an intervenor, they
> > were representing at least one TS customer (even if on a pro-bono basis)
>
> This is debatable by non humans (aka: lawyers).  At this stage, the
> debate is limited to whether the data provided by Canipre is good enough
> to be considered evidence which would force TSI to release identities of
> customer so that Voltage could take them to court.
>
> > Did CIPPIC even try to solicit any "soon-to-be-named" TS customers?
>
> This might jeoperdize its status as a "friend of the court" neutral
> party. I know they have refused money.
>
> > Have any of the TS customers in question come forward in court
> > (anonymously - through a lawyer)
>
> No none. In fact, from what I heard, none paid to have a lawyer present
> to hear what was going on.
>
> > Since Tek Savvy knows who these customers are, and since TS has sent
> > them all letters, I wonder if TS could have set up a protected, private
> > forum and handed out individual username/password to these people via
>
> From what I have heard through the grapevine, Teksavvy has provided the
> means to help those suspects discuss the issue privatly.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks will
that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world downloads
the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

Marc Bissonnette wrote:
 
> I'm just guessing, but I'm thinking it was a serious miscalculation
> on Voltage's part that TS was "small enough" to intimidate into
> doing their trolling for them.

Ya, but think about it.

TS is small enough for Voltage to take on in court - but big enough to
have enough customers torrenting your movies *in a 2-month period* to
make it worth your while to go after them in court?

> While TS may not have clearly communicated what it was doing in
> defense of their customers early on, I really, *really* don't
> think you're going to see them even approach rolling over and
> just giving their customer data to anyone.

I'm not sure where you're getting that idea.

I thought that TS made it abundantly clear that if you come at them with
a court order - they fold like Superman on laundry day and hand over the
info.

And more to the point - we're most of the way through this court case
and the time for them to say "Sorry, but no, we're going to fight giving
you that info" has come and gone.

What I would have thought is that the big ISP's would step in and fight
this - because I'm sure they don't want to have a precident set where
ISP's have to hand over this info when asked.  Any thoughts on this JF?

When these God dam leeching fucks get their letters all of them will be
paying Voltage in full even if they have to put in overtime shining shoes on
Yonge Street.

Some Guy wrote:

> Marc Bissonnette wrote:
>
> > I'm just guessing, but I'm thinking it was a serious miscalculation
> > on Voltage's part that TS was "small enough" to intimidate into
> > doing their trolling for them.
>
> Ya, but think about it.
>
> TS is small enough for Voltage to take on in court - but big enough to
> have enough customers torrenting your movies *in a 2-month period* to
> make it worth your while to go after them in court?
>
> > While TS may not have clearly communicated what it was doing in
> > defense of their customers early on, I really, *really* don't
> > think you're going to see them even approach rolling over and
> > just giving their customer data to anyone.
>
> I'm not sure where you're getting that idea.
>
> I thought that TS made it abundantly clear that if you come at them with
> a court order - they fold like Superman on laundry day and hand over the
> info.
>
> And more to the point - we're most of the way through this court case
> and the time for them to say "Sorry, but no, we're going to fight giving
> you that info" has come and gone.
>
> What I would have thought is that the big ISP's would step in and fight
> this - because I'm sure they don't want to have a precident set where
> ISP's have to hand over this info when asked.  Any thoughts on this JF?

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks
will that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the
phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world
downloads the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a
month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn

schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

On 13-01-28 12:19, Marc Bissonnette wrote:

> trolling for them. After all, who wants' to take on Bell Canada and their 
> bottomless pit of lawyers, when they can go after one of the "small" guys. 

Bell Canada (along with Videotron and Cogeco) didn't fight in 2011 when
Voltage wanted 50 identities from them (all in Qu�bec).  Actually, not
only did they not fight, but they struck an agreement with Voltage that
they would not only not fight, but also not even bother showing up in court.

More recently, there have been cases involving Distributel and a few
other indies who also did not fight this and just let the court order
them to release the info.


> While TS may not have clearly communicated what it was doing in defense of 
> their customers early on (and, to be fair, that may well have been a legal 
> necessity or strategy), I really, *really* don't think you're going to see 
> them even approach rolling over and just giving their customer data to 
> anyone. 

TSI has stated that they won't fight this. They can't really turn around
and start fighting this. But they have ensured that there is due legal
process and giving CIPPIC a chance to argue the cause.

Subject:
              Got a brand new DVD of Balls To The Wall for Christmas and ya know
what i'm going to do with it
        Date:
              Wed, 26 Dec 2012 11:03:32 -0500
        From:
              Tony <Tony@TheDeli.Sandwich>
 Organization:
              Sultans Of CyberFROG
  Newsgroups:
              can.internet.highspeed




I'm going to rip a copy to my hard drive get a few people to help push
my car (Ford Pinto shitbox) to FROGland Montreal and the first FROG
sucker who has unsecured wireless will be uploading a one to one copy of
Ball To The Wall to the bittorents.



JF Mezei wrote:

> On 13-01-28 12:19, Marc Bissonnette wrote:
>
> > trolling for them. After all, who wants' to take on Bell Canada and their
> > bottomless pit of lawyers, when they can go after one of the "small" guys.
>
> Bell Canada (along with Videotron and Cogeco) didn't fight in 2011 when
> Voltage wanted 50 identities from them (all in Qu�bec).  Actually, not
> only did they not fight, but they struck an agreement with Voltage that
> they would not only not fight, but also not even bother showing up in court.
>
> More recently, there have been cases involving Distributel and a few
> other indies who also did not fight this and just let the court order
> them to release the info.
>
> > While TS may not have clearly communicated what it was doing in defense of
> > their customers early on (and, to be fair, that may well have been a legal
> > necessity or strategy), I really, *really* don't think you're going to see
> > them even approach rolling over and just giving their customer data to
> > anyone.
>
> TSI has stated that they won't fight this. They can't really turn around
> and start fighting this. But they have ensured that there is due legal
> process and giving CIPPIC a chance to argue the cause.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day on
the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help you
dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the while
pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your computer
except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks will that
fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which one
are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three* fulltime
jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world downloads
the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and out
your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes at
DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond the
realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in
news:5107692d$0$5806$c3e8da3$50776f34@news.astraweb.com: 

> On 13-01-28 12:19, Marc Bissonnette wrote:
> 
>> trolling for them. After all, who wants' to take on Bell Canada and
>> their bottomless pit of lawyers, when they can go after one of the
>> "small" guys. 
> 
> Bell Canada (along with Videotron and Cogeco) didn't fight in 2011
> when Voltage wanted 50 identities from them (all in Qu�bec). 
> Actually, not only did they not fight, but they struck an agreement
> with Voltage that they would not only not fight, but also not even
> bother showing up in court. 
> 
> More recently, there have been cases involving Distributel and a few
> other indies who also did not fight this and just let the court order
> them to release the info.
> 
> 
>> While TS may not have clearly communicated what it was doing in
>> defense of their customers early on (and, to be fair, that may well
>> have been a legal necessity or strategy), I really, *really* don't
>> think you're going to see them even approach rolling over and just
>> giving their customer data to anyone. 
> 
> TSI has stated that they won't fight this. They can't really turn
> around and start fighting this. But they have ensured that there is
> due legal process and giving CIPPIC a chance to argue the cause.

Perhaps there is something I have missed here, but from what I have seen, 
TSI has done anything but make Voltages' attempt to acquire customer data 
easy; IIRC, Marc Gaudrault said something to the effect of "Yeah, we could 
have communicted better, earlier on, but we are on our customers' side" - 
I'm not saying it's impossible, but I can't see TSI simply handing over 
data willy-nilly.

-Marc

On 13-01-29 17:31, Marc Bissonnette wrote:

> Perhaps there is something I have missed here, but from what I have seen, 
> TSI has done anything but make Voltages' attempt to acquire customer data 
> easy; 

But at the legal level, they have not opposed nor challenged it. They
just used process to delay a decision to allow CIPPIC time to insert
itself into process as well as warn the customers who could be
considered suspects should their identities be released by a court order.

JF Mezei wrote:

> Bell Canada (along with Videotron and Cogeco) didn't fight in 2011
> when Voltage wanted 50 identities from them (all in Qu�bec). 

And how did that turn out for those 50 people?  

That would have been under the old copyright laws - yes?

In a previous post - I asked a bunch of questions about CIPPIC, along
the lines of what their strategy will be in court, what their arguments
will be about, if it would involve the credibility of TS's IP-logging
methods, etc.  You didn't respond - because you don't know?

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in
news:51085f0a$0$17086$c3e8da3$76a7c58f@news.astraweb.com: 

> On 13-01-29 17:31, Marc Bissonnette wrote:
> 
>> Perhaps there is something I have missed here, but from what I have
>> seen, TSI has done anything but make Voltages' attempt to acquire
>> customer data easy; 
> 
> But at the legal level, they have not opposed nor challenged it. They
> just used process to delay a decision to allow CIPPIC time to insert
> itself into process as well as warn the customers who could be
> considered suspects should their identities be released by a court
> order. 

Sure, but there are many paths to the same goal :) 

When you think about it, it is absolutely *not* in any ISPs' interest to 
make it easy for copyright trolls to get access to their users - or their 
logs: That's a whole ton of data and work that the ISPs would bear the 
expense of, with little to no compensation, not to mention the *incredibly* 
negative PR value. 

Teksavvy may well have undergone some growing pains in the last couple of 
years, but I just can't see them throwing their users under the bus without  
a fight. 

-Marc

On 13-01-29 23:59, Some Guy wrote:

> And how did that turn out for those 50 people? 

Some threat letters sent, but court proceedings went nowhere and judge
closed the case.

This was the case where some of the IP ended up being "onwed" by Bell
Canada (Bell Centre in Montreal).

On 13-01-30 00:06, Marc Bissonnette wrote:

> When you think about it, it is absolutely *not* in any ISPs' interest to 
> make it easy for copyright trolls to get access to their users 

As long as ISPs get financial compensation for the work to correlate IP
to customer, it is not in their interest to spend mega lawyer dollars to
defend themselves. Remember that this isn't Voltage vs Teksavvy, it is
Voltage vs John Doe.

The concern for ISPs is to make sure that troll requests do not multiply
and bog down ISPs. But they can't prevent reasonable requests.

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in
news:5108d083$0$33743$c3e8da3$a9097924@news.astraweb.com: 

> On 13-01-30 00:06, Marc Bissonnette wrote:
> 
>> When you think about it, it is absolutely *not* in any ISPs' interest
>> to make it easy for copyright trolls to get access to their users 
> 
> As long as ISPs get financial compensation for the work to correlate
> IP to customer, it is not in their interest to spend mega lawyer
> dollars to defend themselves. Remember that this isn't Voltage vs
> Teksavvy, it is Voltage vs John Doe.
> 
> The concern for ISPs is to make sure that troll requests do not
> multiply and bog down ISPs. But they can't prevent reasonable
> requests. 

Sure, but a "reasonable request" might be 5 to ten users at once - To say 
that hundreds or thousands of users on the same ISP have been downloading 
the same movies in the same time frame: While not impossible, that's much 
more of a money troll than a legitimate quest to litigate (Which we *all* 
know isn't their purpose: The dead *last* thing they want to do is 
litigate; They're looking for names and addresses for the easy settlement 
scare money.)

Given they're suing (allegedly) for more than the statute maximum, I think 
that reinforces the trolling behaviour, rather than a real quest to nail 
the "p1r4t3z" :)

-Marc

Voltage vs JMJimmy et al. What i don't like is the two biggest leeches in
Canada may well get off totally scot free. That weasel HiVolt and SuperFROG
Guspaz.

JF Mezei wrote:

> On 13-01-30 00:06, Marc Bissonnette wrote:
>
> > When you think about it, it is absolutely *not* in any ISPs' interest to
> > make it easy for copyright trolls to get access to their users
>
> As long as ISPs get financial compensation for the work to correlate IP
> to customer, it is not in their interest to spend mega lawyer dollars to
> defend themselves. Remember that this isn't Voltage vs Teksavvy, it is
> Voltage vs John Doe.
>
> The concern for ISPs is to make sure that troll requests do not multiply
> and bog down ISPs. But they can't prevent reasonable requests.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks will
that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world downloads
the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

JF Mezei wrote:

> > And how did that turn out for those 50 people?
> 
> Some threat letters sent, but court proceedings went nowhere and
> judge closed the case.

Ok, that's useful to know - but presumably the law was different then vs
now.

Can I ask why you are reluctant to speak about any arguments the court
might hear about the validity of the IP address records, or if (or how)
CIPPIC might raise that issue in court?

Probably at least half of those 2,300 mother fuckin' pirate leeches have
already legally changed their name and are moving to Mexico as we speak.

Some Guy wrote:

> I haven't seen much in the media about any recent court happenings in
> this case, and I haven't tried to wade through the Tek Savvy forum on
> DSLR to get a concise explanation of current events, so ...
>
> What exactly has been happening this month in that case?
>
> Have the courts ruled that TS is to hand over customer info?

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know
proper manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first
day on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to
help you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily
all the while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out
of your computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram.
Subscriber asks will that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the
next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE,
which one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world
downloads the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a
month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat
and out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the
A-Holes at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to
turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions
beyond the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

On 13-01-30 09:49, Some Guy wrote:

> Can I ask why you are reluctant to speak about any arguments the court
> might hear about the validity of the IP address records, or if (or how)
> CIPPIC might raise that issue in court?

Unless I get the list of IP addresses and the other data collected by
Canipre, there is no way to make an educated opinion on the quality of
the data. (in particular Canipre says it was able to extract only IPs of
Ontario residents (which can't be done) or the list of BitTorrent
(capitalisation theirs) networks they monitored..

Although nobody monitors this newsgroup, one also has to be careful
about giving Voltage laywers a preview of the types of arguments CIPPIC
might come up with.

JF Mezei wrote:
 
> Unless I get the list of IP addresses and the other data collected
> by Canipre, there is no way to make an educated opinion on the
> quality of the data.

The list of IP addresses they have (and why they can say with confidence
that any single one of them was infringing their copyrights) is one side
of the coin.

The other side is arguing that Tek Savvy's logging equipment, methods,
and software can (or can't) confidently be used to identify which
customer had a particular IP address at a particular date/time.

I'm more curious about that other side, and to what extent that either
Canipre or CIPPIC is fully aware of these details, or if TS would be
cooperative (or not) in providing those details to either party - or the
court.

Or do you think that an argument against disclosure would revolve around
arguments other than if IP-assignment logs can be trusted... ?

> in particular Canipre says it was able to extract only IPs of
> Ontario residents (which can't be done)

What is the difference between "extracting IP's" - vs observing (and
recording) the IP addresses of peers participating in a given torrent
over time?

My experience with what is knowable about those participating in a
torrent is limited to the list of peers and seeders that my torrent
client displays for any given torrent that I am downloading (which
frequently include IP's that geo-locate to a wide variety of
countries).  Would Canipre "see" different information when they are
doing their monitoring?

> Although nobody monitors this newsgroup, one also has to be careful
> about giving Voltage laywers a preview of the types of arguments
> CIPPIC might come up with.

Well, yes, but speaking as someone who is completely unfamiliar with
what sort of arguments have been put forward in previous situations in
court in the past, I wouldn't think that any new arguments or concepts
could really be brought forward in what today must be a "mature" field
of law...

On 13-01-30 18:27, Some Guy wrote:

> My experience with what is knowable about those participating in a
> torrent is limited to the list of peers and seeders that my torrent
> client displays for any given torrent that I am downloading (which
> frequently include IP's that geo-locate to a wide variety of
> countries).  Would Canipre "see" different information when they are
> doing their monitoring?

Without having a copy of that GardaLey software Canipre guy bought in
order to make money from Voltage, it is hard to know exactly what that
software does and doesn't do.

And this is where cross examination of the Canipre guy is important to
ensure the guy actually knows what the shrinkwrapped software he bought
to perform extortions actually does.

There are a few statements in his affidavit which lead me to believe the
guys doesn't fully understand how torrents work.

JF Mezei wrote:

> Without having a copy of that GardaLey software Canipre guy bought
> in order to make money from Voltage, it is hard to know exactly
> what that software does and doesn't do.

I don't get it.

The old version of uTorrent that I use will indicate which country that
a particular peer belongs to (by putting a little flag beside their IP
address).  Even though they frequently attribute many Canadian IP
addresses with US flags, I can still tell by the rDNS when I'm peer'd
with someone on Bell.ca, or shaw, or videotron.

So what does it matter what the Gardaley software does?  It can't
possibly screw up such a simple task of writing peer/seeder IP addresses
to a log file for any given torrent that you point it at.

> There are a few statements in his affidavit which lead me to
> believe the guys doesn't fully understand how torrents work.

I don't fully understand how my computer knows to "reach out" to
specific IP address and make connections with them when I download any
given file.  But once those connections are made, it's pretty clear how
the contents of a given torrent become distributed between the
participants.

On 13-01-30 20:02, Some Guy wrote:

> So what does it matter what the Gardaley software does? 

Does GardaLey mereley observe who was in a bar (torrent tracker) at a
specific time ?  Or do they actually monitor sho actually performs a
full upload (hires the hooker, gets the blow job and exchange the money) ?

If it merely observes who is in a bar at a perticular time, it has no
proof of who actually uploaded data.




> It can't
> possibly screw up such a simple task of writing peer/seeder IP addresses
> to a log file for any given torrent that you point it at.

And how do we know that this Canipre guy didn't just generate IP
addresses randomly from within Teksavvy IP ranges and then pretended
they were collected via Garda Ley ?


> I don't fully understand how my computer knows to "reach out" to
> specific IP address and make connections with them when I download any
> given file. 

Me: I have parts 1-4000 of file X. (advertised in the tracker)
you: can you please give me part 2378, send it to my port 6008 ?
me: sure, here it comes.

JF Mezei wrote:
 
> > So what does it matter what the Gardaley software does?
> 
> Does GardaLey mereley observe who was in a bar (torrent tracker)
> at a specific time ?  Or do they actually monitor sho actually
> performs a full upload

My BT client shows me all the machines that I'm connected to (their IP
addresses) and what percentage of the file(s) that each of them have,
and the rate (in kb/sec) that I am uploading (obtaining) data from each
one.  It is trivial to observe the rate at which each of them is
obtaining the file(s), and to know when they have obtained 100% of the
file(s).

Do you doubt that GardaLey can also do that?

But I wouldn't make a big deal as to who has obtained 100% of the data
(vs something less than 100%) because I think that the primary objective
for Voltage is to show the court who is UPLOADING (making available)
their works - because the "making available" aspect is seen as the
bigger "sin" in copyright law.

> If it merely observes who is in a bar at a perticular time, it has
> no proof of who actually uploaded data.

As I ask above: If my BT client can show me who has what percentage of
the data, and I can observe how those percentages change over time, and
if I can also see which IP's are actually providing me with with data,
then again I'd have to conclude that it is technically possible for the
GardaLey software to be able to obtain (and log) that same information.

> And how do we know that this Canipre guy didn't just generate IP
> addresses randomly from within Teksavvy IP ranges and then
> pretended they were collected via Garda Ley ?

For one thing, someone at Canipre would be incredibly stupid to lie to
the court about how their software operates.

And another reason why their software *probably* doesn't fake the data
is because the real data is easily obtainable without needing to fake
it.

I think a better argument to make against Voltage is to ask them why
they don't pay Canipre to poison these torrents to make them worthless. 
Poisoning a torrent has immediate effect in accomplishing relief against
financial loss without the costs associated with court proceedings.

I continue to note that you absolutely do not in any way want to talk
about the Tek Savvy side of this equation - the reliability or accuracy
of their IP logs and how (or if) that issue would come up in court.

Has that aspect never come up in any court proceeding for any torrent
case (either US or Canada) in the past?

That Canspire guy and that Voltage dude are butt buddies. They're in this
together to soak every one of those lucid leeching fucks for everything
they've got and everything they aquire in the future too! Canspire will
conspire to take all yup every last cent of your money. So when the tax man
comes calling you tell him Voltage and Canspire stole all my fuckin' money.

JF Mezei wrote:

> On 13-01-30 18:27, Some Guy wrote:
>
> > My experience with what is knowable about those participating in a
> > torrent is limited to the list of peers and seeders that my torrent
> > client displays for any given torrent that I am downloading (which
> > frequently include IP's that geo-locate to a wide variety of
> > countries).  Would Canipre "see" different information when they are
> > doing their monitoring?
>
> Without having a copy of that GardaLey software Canipre guy bought in
> order to make money from Voltage, it is hard to know exactly what that
> software does and doesn't do.
>
> And this is where cross examination of the Canipre guy is important to
> ensure the guy actually knows what the shrinkwrapped software he bought
> to perform extortions actually does.
>
> There are a few statements in his affidavit which lead me to believe the
> guys doesn't fully understand how torrents work.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks
will that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the
phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world
downloads the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a
month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn

schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

What if you have or had at the time a static ip address and a 25/10 connection
like old JMJimmy? That seems very convincing to me.

JF Mezei wrote:

> On 13-01-30 20:02, Some Guy wrote:
>
> > So what does it matter what the Gardaley software does?
>
> Does GardaLey mereley observe who was in a bar (torrent tracker) at a
> specific time ?  Or do they actually monitor sho actually performs a
> full upload (hires the hooker, gets the blow job and exchange the money) ?
>
> If it merely observes who is in a bar at a perticular time, it has no
> proof of who actually uploaded data.
>
> > It can't
> > possibly screw up such a simple task of writing peer/seeder IP addresses
> > to a log file for any given torrent that you point it at.
>
> And how do we know that this Canipre guy didn't just generate IP
> addresses randomly from within Teksavvy IP ranges and then pretended
> they were collected via Garda Ley ?
>
> > I don't fully understand how my computer knows to "reach out" to
> > specific IP address and make connections with them when I download any
> > given file.
>
> Me: I have parts 1-4000 of file X. (advertised in the tracker)
> you: can you please give me part 2378, send it to my port 6008 ?
> me: sure, here it comes.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks will
that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world downloads
the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

On 13-01-31 09:00, Some Guy wrote:

> Do you doubt that GardaLey can also do that?

For all I know, GardaLey can simply be monitory the list of peers that
the tracker feeds it.  Yes, this means it can see % of file that a peer
currently has. And yes, it can likely see whether a peer is accepting
connections or if it is "chocked".

If GardaLey advertises itself as being unchocked and accepting
connections, then downloaders can connect to it. Will GardaLey accept
the connection ? Will it actually upload content ? Does it log how much
content is uploaded to each pear ?

More importantly, does GardaLey actually request content from peers who
accept connections ? And does it download 100% of a file from 1 peer to
prove that peer has uploaded 100% ?

Since software can fake how much of a file it has, does the mere fact
that you see an IP with 100% of file in a tracker PROVE that this IP
address actually has 100% of the file ?

I suspect GardaLey itself fakes the percentage of the file that it has
in order to not show it has 100% (otherwise, it woudln't be able to
download from unsuspecting folks).

> For one thing, someone at Canipre would be incredibly stupid to lie to
> the court about how their software operates.

This isnt a question of liying. It is a question that their affidavit
omitted much information in order to (possibly) not show that their
collection technique is flawed and does not represent proof of download.

again, seeing a person in a bar/tracker is no proof that that person
performed an illegal act such as hiring a hooker.


> And another reason why their software *probably* doesn't fake the data
> is because the real data is easily obtainable without needing to fake
> it.

Finding over 4000 IP addresses who downloaded unknown/undesirable movies
in a period of a month ?

sorry, but before an ISP hands over the information, that ISP should
make sure that the data wasn't generated randomly and get some sort of
evidence some proper software was REALLY used to perform this
investigation. Perhps even ask the Canipre guy to demostrate to the
judge how GardaLey actually works.

If you don't make sure that the data was aceuired intelligently, then
nothing prevents you or me from generating some random list of IPs and
going after ISPs.


> Poisoning a torrent has immediate effect in accomplishing relief against
> financial loss without the costs associated with court proceedings.

You can't poison an existing torrent because there are checksums in each
part.  But you can create a new torrent that pretends to be "Hurt
Locker" but ends up being some gay movie or just 2 hours of ads for the
Shamwow guy.

> I continue to note that you absolutely do not in any way want to talk
> about the Tek Savvy side of this equation - the reliability or accuracy
> of their IP logs and how (or if) that issue would come up in court.

From a DSL point of view, they should have a fair degree of accuracy,
although they did make 42 errors in their initial pass. Every PPPoE ogin
is logged and authemticated to a specific customer. However, they do not
know if that PPPoE was made from the customer's home or not. (But bell
would know).

You'll be looking at the insane asylum if you rant on about your parallel
universe piffle in court. You'll end up like the guy in Midnight Express but
never escape.

JF Mezei wrote:

> On 13-01-31 09:00, Some Guy wrote:
>
> > Do you doubt that GardaLey can also do that?
>
> For all I know, GardaLey can simply be monitory the list of peers that
> the tracker feeds it.  Yes, this means it can see % of file that a peer
> currently has. And yes, it can likely see whether a peer is accepting
> connections or if it is "chocked".
>
> If GardaLey advertises itself as being unchocked and accepting
> connections, then downloaders can connect to it. Will GardaLey accept
> the connection ? Will it actually upload content ? Does it log how much
> content is uploaded to each pear ?
>
> More importantly, does GardaLey actually request content from peers who
> accept connections ? And does it download 100% of a file from 1 peer to
> prove that peer has uploaded 100% ?
>
> Since software can fake how much of a file it has, does the mere fact
> that you see an IP with 100% of file in a tracker PROVE that this IP
> address actually has 100% of the file ?
>
> I suspect GardaLey itself fakes the percentage of the file that it has
> in order to not show it has 100% (otherwise, it woudln't be able to
> download from unsuspecting folks).
>
> > For one thing, someone at Canipre would be incredibly stupid to lie to
> > the court about how their software operates.
>
> This isnt a question of liying. It is a question that their affidavit
> omitted much information in order to (possibly) not show that their
> collection technique is flawed and does not represent proof of download.
>
> again, seeing a person in a bar/tracker is no proof that that person
> performed an illegal act such as hiring a hooker.
>
> > And another reason why their software *probably* doesn't fake the data
> > is because the real data is easily obtainable without needing to fake
> > it.
>
> Finding over 4000 IP addresses who downloaded unknown/undesirable movies
> in a period of a month ?
>
> sorry, but before an ISP hands over the information, that ISP should
> make sure that the data wasn't generated randomly and get some sort of
> evidence some proper software was REALLY used to perform this
> investigation. Perhps even ask the Canipre guy to demostrate to the
> judge how GardaLey actually works.
>
> If you don't make sure that the data was aceuired intelligently, then
> nothing prevents you or me from generating some random list of IPs and
> going after ISPs.
>
> > Poisoning a torrent has immediate effect in accomplishing relief against
> > financial loss without the costs associated with court proceedings.
>
> You can't poison an existing torrent because there are checksums in each
> part.  But you can create a new torrent that pretends to be "Hurt
> Locker" but ends up being some gay movie or just 2 hours of ads for the
> Shamwow guy.
>
> > I continue to note that you absolutely do not in any way want to talk
> > about the Tek Savvy side of this equation - the reliability or accuracy
> > of their IP logs and how (or if) that issue would come up in court.
>
> From a DSL point of view, they should have a fair degree of accuracy,
> although they did make 42 errors in their initial pass. Every PPPoE ogin
> is logged and authemticated to a specific customer. However, they do not
> know if that PPPoE was made from the customer's home or not. (But bell
> would know).

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks will
that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world downloads
the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

JF Mezei wrote:
 
> For all I know, GardaLey can simply be monitory the list of peers
> that the tracker feeds it.  Yes, this means it can see % of file
> that a peer currently has. And yes, it can likely see whether a
> peer is accepting connections or if it is "chocked".

All of that is sufficient to establish that every IP participating in
that torrent is violating the rights of the owner of the work - as long
as the torrent does indeed constitute a copy of the work.

At that point, it doesn't matter how much of the work is uploaded to or
downloaded from any particular IP that is participating in the torrent.
 
> Finding over 4000 IP addresses who downloaded unknown/undesirable
> movies in a period of a month ?

The system is broken and needs to be fixed.

When a rights-holder finds a copy of their work on a file-locker, they
request that the work be taken down, and if it's taken down then that's
the end of the situation.

When a rights-holder finds a copy of their work on an active torrent,
they should be able to:

a) contacting the individual ISP's in question in "real time" and give
them their evidence and details of the torrent and compel the ISP to
disrupt / throttle / deactivate the internet connection of the customer
for a short period of time (6 to 24 hours) and send an e-mail to
what-ever e-mail address the ISP has on file for that customer
explaining what is going on and why, and that their connection will be
restored after the time-period is over, and that no further action will
be taken, and their identity will not be revealed to the rights-holder.

OR

b) do no real-time intervention, but impliment a "6-strikes" policy
against the customer (as as been implimented in the US).  Again, their
identity will not be revealed to the rights holder.

> > Poisoning a torrent has immediate effect in accomplishing relief
> > against financial loss without the costs associated with court
> > proceedings.
> 
> You can't poison an existing torrent because there are checksums
> in each part.

I was under the impression that the individual parts or segments can be
composed of random data, and be constructed such that they have the
desired checksum, and these parts could be injected into the torrent by
the agent (Canipre).

On 13-02-01 10:54, Some Guy wrote:

> All of that is sufficient to establish that every IP participating in
> that torrent is violating the rights of the owner of the work - as long
> as the torrent does indeed constitute a copy of the work.

If GardaLey is connected to the tracker for that torrent but not
downloading or uploading anything from anyone, is it guilty of
infringement ?

Similarlty, if GardaLey sees some other IP addresses hanging around in
th torrent's tracker, does it have any proof that they are doing
anything else but hanging around, pretending to always have 27% of the
file ?

Just because an IP is seen in a tracker's list of participants in a
torrent does not *prove* that IP address is actively uploading or
downloading the content.  Yes, between you and me, the odds are that it
is participating actively, but it isn't a proof.

> When a rights-holder finds a copy of their work on an active torrent,
> they should be able to:

The ISP has no role to play. The Torrent network has a role to play. Why
not ask the torrent operator to pull the offending torrent from its
search engine and no longer serve the .torrent file ? Why don't they ask
the torrent network to stop seeding the work ?


> a) contacting the individual ISP's in question in "real time" and give

Not gonna happen. How th fuck is the ISP supposed to know the person who
calls them is legit ?  Tony would call Teksavvy and request that Marc
Bissonette's IP be disconnected right away.

JF Mezei wrote:
 
> > All of that is sufficient to establish that every IP participating
> > in that torrent is violating the rights of the owner of the work
> 
> If GardaLey is connected to the tracker for that torrent but not
> downloading or uploading anything from anyone, is it guilty of
> infringement ?

It?

Is *what* guilty of infringement?

The tracker?

> Similarlty, if GardaLey sees some other IP addresses hanging around
> in th torrent's tracker, does it have any proof that they are doing
> anything else but hanging around, pretending to always have 27% of
> the file ?

Is this the argument along the lines of 

      "it wasn't me that was torrenting your file - it was the
       last guy that had this IP address, and that I later had
       when Canipre logged the torrent in question"

???

What's to stop "me" from putting forward that defense in court when (or
if) it comes to that?

> > When a rights-holder finds a copy of their work on an active
> > torrent, they should be able to:
> 
> The ISP has no role to play.

Then why the fuck do they log IP's to begin with?

At least for anything longer than IS ABSOLUTELY TECHNICALLY NECESSARY?

Why don't they only log your current IP assignment (not your historical
record going back days, weeks, months, etc) ???

The ISP ->IS<- playing a role in this when they unnecessarily keep a log
of this information FOR NO OBVIOUS PURPOSE OTHER THAN MAKING IT
AVAILABLE TO A THIRD PARTY.

> The Torrent network has a role to play. Why not ask the torrent
> operator to pull the offending torrent from its search engine
> and no longer serve the .torrent file ? Why don't they ask
> the torrent network to stop seeding the work ?

I would agree to that, because the operator of the torrent is in the
same position as the operator of the file-locker - at least as seen from
the perspective of the DMCA.

I have seen MANY file-lockers obey takedown requests - even those
lockers operating in europe and russia.

Mega-Upload was an exception, and if you ask me, that's what got them
into such deep shit with the US DOJ.

> > a) contacting the individual ISP's in question in "real time"
> 
> Not gonna happen. How th fuck is the ISP supposed to know the
> person who calls them is legit ? 

Same reason that (apparently) Google honors so many DMCA takedown
requests.  I see them quite often when doing searches that include
"torrent" or "camrip, TS" in the search terms.

This sort of "secure-channel" or trusted communication apparently
exists.

You didn't comment about my response to torrent poisoning, nor did you
comment about the "6 strikes" method in place in the US.

No Tony would call the men in the white coats for FROGs on the loose such as
JF an escapee from the movie "One Flew Over The Cookoo's Nest".

JF Mezei wrote:

> On 13-02-01 10:54, Some Guy wrote:
>
> > All of that is sufficient to establish that every IP participating in
> > that torrent is violating the rights of the owner of the work - as long
> > as the torrent does indeed constitute a copy of the work.
>
> If GardaLey is connected to the tracker for that torrent but not
> downloading or uploading anything from anyone, is it guilty of
> infringement ?
>
> Similarlty, if GardaLey sees some other IP addresses hanging around in
> th torrent's tracker, does it have any proof that they are doing
> anything else but hanging around, pretending to always have 27% of the
> file ?
>
> Just because an IP is seen in a tracker's list of participants in a
> torrent does not *prove* that IP address is actively uploading or
> downloading the content.  Yes, between you and me, the odds are that it
> is participating actively, but it isn't a proof.
>
> > When a rights-holder finds a copy of their work on an active torrent,
> > they should be able to:
>
> The ISP has no role to play. The Torrent network has a role to play. Why
> not ask the torrent operator to pull the offending torrent from its
> search engine and no longer serve the .torrent file ? Why don't they ask
> the torrent network to stop seeding the work ?
>
> > a) contacting the individual ISP's in question in "real time" and give
>
> Not gonna happen. How th fuck is the ISP supposed to know the person who
> calls them is legit ?  Tony would call Teksavvy and request that Marc
> Bissonette's IP be disconnected right away.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks will
that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world downloads
the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

All you can really do is moon the judge and walk off in shackles or do the
right thing and pay Voltage everything that's owed to them even if your
offspring has to keep on paying them after you're dead.

Some Guy wrote:

> JF Mezei wrote:
>
> > > All of that is sufficient to establish that every IP participating
> > > in that torrent is violating the rights of the owner of the work
> >
> > If GardaLey is connected to the tracker for that torrent but not
> > downloading or uploading anything from anyone, is it guilty of
> > infringement ?
>
> It?
>
> Is *what* guilty of infringement?
>
> The tracker?
>
> > Similarlty, if GardaLey sees some other IP addresses hanging around
> > in th torrent's tracker, does it have any proof that they are doing
> > anything else but hanging around, pretending to always have 27% of
> > the file ?
>
> Is this the argument along the lines of
>
>       "it wasn't me that was torrenting your file - it was the
>        last guy that had this IP address, and that I later had
>        when Canipre logged the torrent in question"
>
> ???
>
> What's to stop "me" from putting forward that defense in court when (or
> if) it comes to that?
>
> > > When a rights-holder finds a copy of their work on an active
> > > torrent, they should be able to:
> >
> > The ISP has no role to play.
>
> Then why the fuck do they log IP's to begin with?
>
> At least for anything longer than IS ABSOLUTELY TECHNICALLY NECESSARY?
>
> Why don't they only log your current IP assignment (not your historical
> record going back days, weeks, months, etc) ???
>
> The ISP ->IS<- playing a role in this when they unnecessarily keep a log
> of this information FOR NO OBVIOUS PURPOSE OTHER THAN MAKING IT
> AVAILABLE TO A THIRD PARTY.
>
> > The Torrent network has a role to play. Why not ask the torrent
> > operator to pull the offending torrent from its search engine
> > and no longer serve the .torrent file ? Why don't they ask
> > the torrent network to stop seeding the work ?
>
> I would agree to that, because the operator of the torrent is in the
> same position as the operator of the file-locker - at least as seen from
> the perspective of the DMCA.
>
> I have seen MANY file-lockers obey takedown requests - even those
> lockers operating in europe and russia.
>
> Mega-Upload was an exception, and if you ask me, that's what got them
> into such deep shit with the US DOJ.
>
> > > a) contacting the individual ISP's in question in "real time"
> >
> > Not gonna happen. How th fuck is the ISP supposed to know the
> > person who calls them is legit ?
>
> Same reason that (apparently) Google honors so many DMCA takedown
> requests.  I see them quite often when doing searches that include
> "torrent" or "camrip, TS" in the search terms.
>
> This sort of "secure-channel" or trusted communication apparently
> exists.
>
> You didn't comment about my response to torrent poisoning, nor did you
> comment about the "6 strikes" method in place in the US.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks
will that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the
phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world
downloads the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a
month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn

schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

In article <XnsA15812B71AFFusenetcanadianisp@216.196.97.131>,
 Marc Bissonnette <usenet@canadianisp.ca> wrote:

> Teksavvy may well have undergone some growing pains in the last couple of 
> years, but I just can't see them throwing their users under the bus without  
> a fight. 

That's a noble sentiment, Marc, but Teksavvy don't have the financial 
resources to fight the thing to (say) the Supreme Court. All they can do 
is demand to see a court order, and (perhaps) convince some other 
interested party (with deeper pockets) to intervene before the order is 
granted. 

If I were a Teksavvy customer, downloader or no, I'd want them to be 
putting their profits back into technical innovation and infrastructure, 
not into a holy war against "patent trolls." 

Teksavvy are being targeted because they have a small, pretty 
knowledgable base of private customers and cheap bandwidth; Voltage 
aren't going to get into a scene where they get a court order that names 
the Montreal Canadiens and the Airport Hilton as "infringers" that they 
can never do anything with; they're going to get real names of real 
people that they can get at.

Get a VPN. I'd suggest Witopia ...

-- 

Fine then, I'm drinking coffee and rolling cigarettes and looking 
out at the hot baked street and a lady just walked by wiggling it 
in tight white pants, and we are not dead yet.

In article <510b0986$0$51995$c3e8da3$5d8fb80f@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Since software can fake how much of a file it has, does the mere fact
> that you see an IP with 100% of file in a tracker PROVE that this IP
> address actually has 100% of the file ?

I only know of one Torrent client that can do that kind of sophisticated 
fakery, and it's a heavily modified version of [a very popular client]. 
Also, torrenting at that level requires a pretty good knowledge of the 
"protocol" and networking and all sorts of stuff that your average 
arse-hole who really truly wants to watch garbage like "Killer Joe" 
probably isn't going to have. You'll note that Voltage, like the pron 
companies involved in torrent lawsuits, don't exactly produce, er, 
quality entertainment. I haven't heard of the Weinstein Company going 
after anyone, or HBO for that matter.

> I suspect GardaLey itself fakes the percentage of the file that it has
> in order to not show it has 100% (otherwise, it woudln't be able to
> download from unsuspecting folks).

They don't have to do that. There are lots of "seeds" out there. Lots of 
average arse-holes.  I'm guessing that the software is identifying 
people (from Ontario) who are "seeding." You can't "seed" unless you 
have the whole file. If you don't have the whole file, you haven't 
downloaded a watchable movie, and have broken no laws. 

VPN. IP filters. Encryption. TOR (if you must). Mostly, VPN. And stop 
watching crappy movies.

-- 

Fine then, I'm drinking coffee and rolling cigarettes and looking 
out at the hot baked street and a lady just walked by wiggling it 
in tight white pants, and we are not dead yet.

This place sums it all up but someone else put the blog up.

TheFreeSpeechStore�

JF Mezei wrote:

> On 13-02-01 10:54, Some Guy wrote:
>
> > All of that is sufficient to establish that every IP participating in
> > that torrent is violating the rights of the owner of the work - as long
> > as the torrent does indeed constitute a copy of the work.
>
> If GardaLey is connected to the tracker for that torrent but not
> downloading or uploading anything from anyone, is it guilty of
> infringement ?
>
> Similarlty, if GardaLey sees some other IP addresses hanging around in
> th torrent's tracker, does it have any proof that they are doing
> anything else but hanging around, pretending to always have 27% of the
> file ?
>
> Just because an IP is seen in a tracker's list of participants in a
> torrent does not *prove* that IP address is actively uploading or
> downloading the content.  Yes, between you and me, the odds are that it
> is participating actively, but it isn't a proof.
>
> > When a rights-holder finds a copy of their work on an active torrent,
> > they should be able to:
>
> The ISP has no role to play. The Torrent network has a role to play. Why
> not ask the torrent operator to pull the offending torrent from its
> search engine and no longer serve the .torrent file ? Why don't they ask
> the torrent network to stop seeding the work ?
>
> > a) contacting the individual ISP's in question in "real time" and give
>
> Not gonna happen. How th fuck is the ISP supposed to know the person who
> calls them is legit ?  Tony would call Teksavvy and request that Marc
> Bissonette's IP be disconnected right away.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks will
that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world downloads
the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

On 13-02-03 09:37, Wilbur Eleven wrote:

> people (from Ontario) who are "seeding." You can't "seed" unless you 
> have the whole file. If you don't have the whole file, you haven't 
> downloaded a watchable movie, and have broken no laws. 

Incorrect. You start to seed the minute you have one verified part and
anyone else in interested in that part.  So you could have only 1% of a
file and be seeding to 20 people.  (this happens especially when a
torrent has just been posted).

And more importantly, you could have any x % of file, be seen in the
torrent and not be downloading anything. Beware of folks who stay at 37%
for any length of time.

In article <510eae62$0$63316$c3e8da3$3a1a2348@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Incorrect. You start to seed the minute you have one verified part and
> anyone else in interested in that part.  So you could have only 1% of a
> file and be seeding to 20 people.  (this happens especially when a
> torrent has just been posted).
> 
The modified version of the client I use can _pretend_ that you're 
uploading when you're not. For the record, you're not "seeding" when 
you're uploading parts of an incomplete download; that's called 
"peering," or, to the zealots, "leeching."

> And more importantly, you could have any x % of file, be seen in the
> torrent and not be downloading anything. Beware of folks who stay at 37%
> for any length of time.

That too is a controllable setting. These guys, they're fighting a 
losing war, even if they create casualties (TSI customers, say) along 
the way.

-- 

Fine then, I'm drinking coffee and rolling cigarettes and looking 
out at the hot baked street and a lady just walked by wiggling it 
in tight white pants, and we are not dead yet.

We all remember Eddie Shack's saying about "take care of the nickels and dimes
and the dollars will take care of themselves". Voltage will soon be in the
Fortune 500 as one of the richest companies.

Wilbur Eleven wrote:

> In article <510eae62$0$63316$c3e8da3$3a1a2348@news.astraweb.com>,
>  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> > Incorrect. You start to seed the minute you have one verified part and
> > anyone else in interested in that part.  So you could have only 1% of a
> > file and be seeding to 20 people.  (this happens especially when a
> > torrent has just been posted).
> >
> The modified version of the client I use can _pretend_ that you're
> uploading when you're not. For the record, you're not "seeding" when
> you're uploading parts of an incomplete download; that's called
> "peering," or, to the zealots, "leeching."
>
> > And more importantly, you could have any x % of file, be seen in the
> > torrent and not be downloading anything. Beware of folks who stay at 37%
> > for any length of time.
>
> That too is a controllable setting. These guys, they're fighting a
> losing war, even if they create casualties (TSI customers, say) along
> the way.
>
> --
>
> Fine then, I'm drinking coffee and rolling cigarettes and looking
> out at the hot baked street and a lady just walked by wiggling it
> in tight white pants, and we are not dead yet.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks will
that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world downloads
the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

Eddie Shack, known by nicknames "The Entertainer" and "The Nose", a retired
Canadian hockey player who played for six NHL teams from 1959 to 1975...I
know, I�m dating myself but, a positive influence anywhere, he has a saying:
�look after the nickels and dimes, and the dollars will look after themselves.

Wilbur Eleven wrote:

> In article <510eae62$0$63316$c3e8da3$3a1a2348@news.astraweb.com>,
>  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> > Incorrect. You start to seed the minute you have one verified part and
> > anyone else in interested in that part.  So you could have only 1% of a
> > file and be seeding to 20 people.  (this happens especially when a
> > torrent has just been posted).
> >
> The modified version of the client I use can _pretend_ that you're
> uploading when you're not. For the record, you're not "seeding" when
> you're uploading parts of an incomplete download; that's called
> "peering," or, to the zealots, "leeching."
>
> > And more importantly, you could have any x % of file, be seen in the
> > torrent and not be downloading anything. Beware of folks who stay at 37%
> > for any length of time.
>
> That too is a controllable setting. These guys, they're fighting a
> losing war, even if they create casualties (TSI customers, say) along
> the way.
>
> --
>
> Fine then, I'm drinking coffee and rolling cigarettes and looking
> out at the hot baked street and a lady just walked by wiggling it
> in tight white pants, and we are not dead yet.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day
on the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help
you dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the
while pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your
computer except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks will
that fuckin' work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which
one are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR,
ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three*
fulltime jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world downloads
the binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and
out your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes
at DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet

In article <510F31DA.AF16408D@TheDeli.Sandwich>,
 Tony <Tony@TheDeli.Sandwich> wrote:

> Eddie Shack, known by nicknames "The Entertainer" and "The Nose", a retired
> Canadian hockey player who played for six NHL teams from 1959 to 1975...I
> know, I�m dating myself but, a positive influence anywhere, he has a saying:
> �look after the nickels and dimes, and the dollars will look after 
> themselves.

He's still alive too. "Horton and Shack -- over the line -- one man back 
..."

Why don't you drop that stupid signature? No one cares about your 
infantile obsessions or how really fucking clever your mother tell you 
you are (yelling down the basement stairs).

-- 

Fine then, I'm drinking coffee and rolling cigarettes and looking 
out at the hot baked street and a lady just walked by wiggling it 
in tight white pants, and we are not dead yet.

I'm like the guy with dozens of tattoos a walking encyclopedia of knowledge from
all my jaunts through usenet.

Wilbur Eleven wrote:

> In article <510F31DA.AF16408D@TheDeli.Sandwich>,
>  Tony <Tony@TheDeli.Sandwich> wrote:
>
> > Eddie Shack, known by nicknames "The Entertainer" and "The Nose", a retired
> > Canadian hockey player who played for six NHL teams from 1959 to 1975...I
> > know, I�m dating myself but, a positive influence anywhere, he has a saying:
> > �look after the nickels and dimes, and the dollars will look after
> > themselves.
>
> He's still alive too. "Horton and Shack -- over the line -- one man back
> ..."
>
> Why don't you drop that stupid signature? No one cares about your
> infantile obsessions or how really fucking clever your mother tell you
> you are (yelling down the basement stairs).
>
> --
>
> Fine then, I'm drinking coffee and rolling cigarettes and looking
> out at the hot baked street and a lady just walked by wiggling it
> in tight white pants, and we are not dead yet.

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

Nay, Art thou decideth playeth ye simpleton games. *Some* of us know proper
manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs but got fired the first day on
the job for potty mouth,

Bur-ring, i'll get this one: WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM JERK!!? We're here to help you
dickweed, ok, ok give the power cord the jiggily piggily wiggily all the while
pushing the power button repeatedly now take everything out of your computer
except the power supply and *one* stick of ram. Subscriber asks will that fuckin'
work? I guaranDAMtee it. Ok get the next sucker on the phone.

Deirdre Straughan (Roxio) is a LIAR (Deirdre McFibber)

There's the employer and the employee and the FROGGER and the FROGEE, which one
are you?

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar (I just got EL-FROG-OED!!)

All hail Chuckcar the CZAR!! Or in F-R-O-Gland Chuckcar laFROG laCZAR, ChuckZar!!

I hate them both, With useless bogus bullshit you need at least *three* fulltime
jobs to afford either one of them

I'm a fulltime text *only* man on usenet now. The rest of the world downloads the
binary files not me i can't afford thousands of dollars a month

VBB = Volume based billing. How many bytes can we shove down your throat and out
your arse sir?

The only "fix" for the CellPig modem is a sledgehammer.

UBB = User based bullFROGGING

Colonel Debeers refuses to wrestle a black man
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3-o_dPhbGI)

Master Juba was a black man imitating a white man imitating a black man

Always do incremental backups of your data or you'll end up like the A-Holes at
DSL Reports. Justin says i made a boo-boo. Yeah boo-who.

Updates are for idiots. As long as the thing works there's no reason to turn
schizophrenic and develop a lifelong complex over such a silly issue.

You don't have to be "stinkbottomed" to post on this newsgroup

Adrian "jackpot" Lewis is a mama's boy!

Jimmy Fricke is good for the game of poker

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond the
realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

This sig file was compiled via my journeys through usenet