🚀 go-pugleaf

Just some things maybe to consider:
Figure out how much time it will take you to program it.
You could tell your friend you want X amount of money per hour it took
you,
this is a fair approach.  Before you give your friend any discounts
you should consider how much time this will save him and
thus how much money that will put in his pocket. If he plans on putting it
on many computers you need to change per licensed copy.

Peter Nolan wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> I normally don't do programming for others, just our own stuff, but I
> have been asked by a friend with a small business to write a small
> utility program specifically for a process he does daily.
>
> He insists that I charge a fair and reasonable price but I have no
> idea what the going rate is. I guess he could get a quote from a local
> consultant/programmer but that would be a little unfair as there would
> be no chance of the guy getting the job.
>
> When we got the quote, I would equal the offer, and the bond of
> friendship would then sway the contract in my favor, so I don't want
> to waste a local guy's time.
>
> If you would rather keep it confidential then please email a reply,
> otherwise a reply to the group is fine as I lurk daily.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Nolan
> CEO Nolan Innovation Inc.
> *********************************
> http://aluminator.tierranet.com
> Ph:   (520) 772-9730
> Cellular: (520) 713-7016
> Fax:  (520) 772-9839
> *********************************

You really need to give more information regarding your skills,
experience, the nature of the job, etc.

In the UK market, a contractor can cost from 25-75 pounds ($40-120) per
hour depending on any of the above. A particularly experienced person
may command more.

If a local firm is being asked to quote for something, I'm sure they
won't put a mountain of work into preparing the quote unless it's a huge
project - so you're only wasting half an hour of someone's time.


In article <379a2f82.588793@news1.ibm.net>, Peter Nolan <nolaninc@alumin
ator.tierranet.com> writes
>Hi guys,
>
>I normally don't do programming for others, just our own stuff, but I
>have been asked by a friend with a small business to write a small
>utility program specifically for a process he does daily.
>
>He insists that I charge a fair and reasonable price but I have no
>idea what the going rate is. I guess he could get a quote from a local
>consultant/programmer but that would be a little unfair as there would
>be no chance of the guy getting the job. 
>
>When we got the quote, I would equal the offer, and the bond of
>friendship would then sway the contract in my favor, so I don't want
>to waste a local guy's time.
>
>If you would rather keep it confidential then please email a reply,
>otherwise a reply to the group is fine as I lurk daily.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>--
>
>Regards,
>
>Peter Nolan
>CEO Nolan Innovation Inc.
>*********************************
>http://aluminator.tierranet.com
>Ph:   (520) 772-9730
>Cellular: (520) 713-7016
>Fax:  (520) 772-9839
>*********************************

-- 
Return address removed for anti-spam purposes.
Email replies to news at maelstrom dot demon dot co dot uk
Email replies to this address may be copied to relevant newsgroups

Money betweens friends is seldom a good idea.

Peter Nolan <nolaninc@aluminator.tierranet.com> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:37a292f9.13166226@news1.ibm.net...
> That's true in real life, but it is a small business and he is a
> friend. In fact I offered to do it as a part-time project for free but
> he insists on paying a fair price. I aint going to argue with someone
> who *wants* to give me money! <g>

Peter Nolan wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:21:52 GMT, Mr_Pibb <mr_pibb_@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >>Just some things maybe to consider:
> >>Figure out how much time it will take you to program it.
> 
> That's basically why I wanted the going rate to give him an idea of
> what it might cost. He has seen some of the stuff I have written
> specifically for our CNC division but doesn't appreciate the hours
> that sometimes goes into them, specially tweaking after using it for
> some time.
> 
> >>you should consider how much time this will save him and
> >>thus how much money that will put in his pocket. If he plans on putting it
> >>on many computers you need to change per licensed copy.
> 
> That's true in real life, but it is a small business and he is a
> friend. In fact I offered to do it as a part-time project for free but
> he insists on paying a fair price. I aint going to argue with someone
> who *wants* to give me money! <g>
> 
> Thanks for the thoughts though.



Treat the project as you would any professional project.  Work out your
entire agreement and put it in writing.  Work together to consider the
-whole- project, including his unspoken expectations, his budget,
support issues, usage-rights, and so on.

Remember this:  when someone asks what you charge "per hour," that's not
really what they want to know.  They want to know, bottom line, what it
will COST, and at what times and in what ways ... and you must be
prepared to tell them and to stick to it, even with a friend.

You're right, I'm not an American (I'm a Dane).
Out of curiosity, did you mean something specific with the question?

N. G. <saruman@highclass.net> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:7nfcun$6k4$1@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net...
> You ain't an American, right ?
>
> Finn Tolderlund wrote in message <7nd0vk$rgh$1@news101.telia.com>...
> >Money betweens friends is seldom a good idea.
> >
> >Peter Nolan <nolaninc@aluminator.tierranet.com> skrev i en
> >nyhedsmeddelelse:37a292f9.13166226@news1.ibm.net...
> >> That's true in real life, but it is a small business and he is a
> >> friend. In fact I offered to do it as a part-time project for free but
> >> he insists on paying a fair price. I aint going to argue with someone
> >> who *wants* to give me money! <g>

On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:21:52 GMT, Mr_Pibb <mr_pibb_@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>>Just some things maybe to consider:
>>Figure out how much time it will take you to program it.

That's basically why I wanted the going rate to give him an idea of
what it might cost. He has seen some of the stuff I have written
specifically for our CNC division but doesn't appreciate the hours
that sometimes goes into them, specially tweaking after using it for
some time.

>>you should consider how much time this will save him and
>>thus how much money that will put in his pocket. If he plans on putting it
>>on many computers you need to change per licensed copy.

That's true in real life, but it is a small business and he is a
friend. In fact I offered to do it as a part-time project for free but
he insists on paying a fair price. I aint going to argue with someone
who *wants* to give me money! <g>

Thanks for the thoughts though.

--

Regards,

Peter Nolan
CEO Nolan Innovation Inc.
*********************************
http://aluminator.tierranet.com
Ph:   (520) 772-9730
Cellular: (520) 713-7016
Fax:  (520) 772-9839
*********************************

You ain't an American, right ?

Finn Tolderlund wrote in message <7nd0vk$rgh$1@news101.telia.com>...
>Money betweens friends is seldom a good idea.
>
>Peter Nolan <nolaninc@aluminator.tierranet.com> skrev i en
>nyhedsmeddelelse:37a292f9.13166226@news1.ibm.net...
>> That's true in real life, but it is a small business and he is a
>> friend. In fact I offered to do it as a part-time project for free but
>> he insists on paying a fair price. I aint going to argue with someone
>> who *wants* to give me money! <g>
>
>
>

Peter Nolan wrote:
> 
> That's true in real life, but it is a small business and he is a
> friend. In fact I offered to do it as a part-time project for free but
> he insists on paying a fair price. I aint going to argue with someone
> who *wants* to give me money! <g>
> 

Could you give some hint, what kind of sums are we discussing
here? 

If the amount of work, and also the code you are going to do
is for instance something like $200-$400 total, then why spend
too much time and effort with it. Tell your friend it is $300,
if that's too much, give it for free, but say he owes you a favor 
now.

If it is a 'real' project, thousands of dollars, taking several 
weeks, or months of your time, then better make it clear right 
away, that this size of favors need to be paid with money, not
with friendship. You'll have to get $XX/hour, even from good
friends, because this really is your work, not your hobby.

Looks like this friend has some kind of advantage over you, maybe
you can't get those words out with him, that you can say here, in 
the newsgroups.
Just tell you appreciate his frienship, but also make him face 
the facts of your work and schedules, and usual charges. 
One hour of open discussions, that could be a way to solve this kind 
of problem. 

If even this does not work, then tell him that:
 "All the programmer guys in Internet tell that $50-$100/h for an
  average programmer, that is the going rate in the OECD countries. 
  Those numbers, and then our friendship, that's the base we have 
  to build this deal".

Good luck.

Markku Nevalainen

Part-time, evening work doesn't usually get the same rates as day work.
And if you're doing it for a friend, then the rate should reflect the value
of your friendship.

My brother owns a two-man computer service shop, and came over
Saturday and we spend 6 hours working up a 'proof-of-concept' -
a program with all the screen layout, but none of the business logic
intact - so that he can take it to a customer with numbers for an
approval. I usually charge $60/hr for this sort of stuff, but hey - it's
my brother, and I still owe him $500 for the computer parts I got
from him . . .

In your shoes, since you don't have a 'going rate', I would suggest
the following scenario. (If you want to do more of this stuff...)

Sugest to your friend that you want to derive a benefit from him as
he derives a benefit from you. Ask if you can write up a formal
proposal, have him evaluate your bid as he would any other
bid, and offer critique. You will set your rate at $x/ hr and
estimate your time. Then draw up a contract that binds you to
deliver such-and-such functionality by a given time, and obligates
him to pay a determined amount under some terms. Weather or not
you actually sign it is moot - you are gaining experience with the
bidding process while quietly educating your friend on exactly what
he is getting into - and putting you through.

In my experience, most people ask friends to do far more,
and far cheaper, than they realize. When he insists on paying you
a 'fair' price, he may be thinking $6.00/hr while you're thinking $60.00.
(depending on what business he is in).

I started my frst after-hours educational project at $20/hr and it was
very educational. I figured that programming was worth about $60 and
that I would spend two hours learning for every hour I spent actually
producing - hence the price. Trouble was, I was stuck with the rate
long after I stopped doing the two-hours-of-learning thing...

US dollars, midwest (Minnesota) rates are $90-140 in the major metro
areas, $50 - $100 in smaller population areas, and $20-$75/hr for
evening work by novice programmers trying to break into the market.
(Actually, I pity the people who pay $75/hr for newbies, but hey - if
they can get it, more power to them. Makes me look better...)

For what it's worth...

Al


Peter Nolan wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> I normally don't do programming for others, just our own stuff, but I
> have been asked by a friend with a small business to write a small
> utility program specifically for a process he does daily.
>
> He insists that I charge a fair and reasonable price but I have no
> idea what the going rate is. I guess he could get a quote from a local
> consultant/programmer but that would be a little unfair as there would
> be no chance of the guy getting the job.
>
> When we got the quote, I would equal the offer, and the bond of
> friendship would then sway the contract in my favor, so I don't want
> to waste a local guy's time.
>
> If you would rather keep it confidential then please email a reply,
> otherwise a reply to the group is fine as I lurk daily.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter Nolan
> CEO Nolan Innovation Inc.
> *********************************
> http://aluminator.tierranet.com
> Ph:   (520) 772-9730
> Cellular: (520) 713-7016
> Fax:  (520) 772-9839
> *********************************

> Could you give some hint, what kind of sums are we discussing
> here?

I have to add that an even more important issue is the contract. To make
sure you and the customer agree on the project specification. If you don't
have a good one, you'll probably end up with the customer claiming that you
must add new features in eternity and that that is part of the original
price.

State ALL possible details on the project to avoid such hassle. It's worth
it.

//Linus Elman

Exactly!
And make it perfectly clear that only what has been written down in the
specifications will be made.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Linus Elman <probe@techno.org> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:7nk6d4$a04$1@cubacola.tninet.se...
> > Could you give some hint, what kind of sums are we discussing
> > here?
>
> I have to add that an even more important issue is the contract. To make
> sure you and the customer agree on the project specification. If you don't
> have a good one, you'll probably end up with the customer claiming that
you
> must add new features in eternity and that that is part of the original
> price.
>
> State ALL possible details on the project to avoid such hassle. It's worth
> it.
>
> file://Linus Elman
>
>
>