🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <40anjl$v3o@hopi.gate.net> cirby@news.gate.net (Chad Irby) writes:
>Reid Conti (oakley@eskimo.com) wrote:
>
>
>Where do you shop?  Have you priced Macs in the last six months or so?  
>Compare the price on a Mac 5200 to a P-B Pentium 75... the Mac is faster, 
>has better hardware (compare that P-B .39 pitch 13" monitor to the one 
>built into the 5200 that gives you *real* 832 by 624 resolution).  And 
>the equal Compaq is more expensive than that.
>

Compaq is NOT a good comparison!  A P75 motherboard now can be had for about 
$300!  That is WITH VESA and PCI slots, and 256K cache.  At that price, I 
don't think an equivalent APPLE could beat it by much !  NO WAY!  ESPECIALLY 
since apple isn't known to be very cheap EITHER.

Steve

Stephen Knilans (stephenk@netcom.com) wrote:

: Compaq is NOT a good comparison!  A P75 motherboard now can be
: had for about $300!  That is WITH VESA and PCI slots, and 256K
: cache.  At that price, I  don't think an equivalent APPLE could
: beat it by much ! 

...and once you buy the RAM, the hard drive, the power supply, the 
keyboard, the mouse, the monitor, the video card, the CD-ROM, the 
operating system, and all of the other stuff to make a whole operating 
computer, you still get to put it together.

All for about the same amount of money or MORE!  WHEE!  And when 
something goes wrong six months from now, and the place you got the 
pieces from is out of business because they didn't make any margin on the 
stuff they sold, you get to try and deal with a bunch of parts from 
fifteen different companies!

Gee, what a f*&%^$ BARGAIN!


-- 

Chad Irby           /    My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@gate.net     /      for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."

In article <stephenkDD9Ay3.H7D@netcom.com> Stephen Knilans,
stephenk@netcom.com writes:
>
>Compaq is NOT a good comparison!  A P75 motherboard now can be had for about 
>$300!  That is WITH VESA and PCI slots, and 256K cache.  At that price, I 
>don't think an equivalent APPLE could beat it by much !  NO WAY!  ESPECIALLY 
>since apple isn't known to be very cheap EITHER.
>
>Steve
>

Whoa there...  A motherboard is a far cry from a real system.  Try
outfitting a
complete P75 machine from scratch - motherboard, RAM, cache, 16-bit
stereo sound,
PCI video, 15" SVGA monitor, keyboard, system software, SCSI controller,
hard drive,
floppy drive, and 2X CD ROM.  Did I leave anything out?

motherboard		$300    assuming you were correct
8MB RAM			$300    minimum if you search
Sound card		$150
video card		$225	just a guess - if you want
15" Monitor		$350
Keyboard		$75
500MB HD		$200
HD controller	$100
floppy drive	$50
CD ROM			$150
--------------------------
Total			$1900

These prices are assuming you had to go out and buy each one separately. 
As you
can see, PC companies are able to take advantage of volume discount.

Anyhow, you aren't going to beat the 5200 like that.

Stop using so many exclamation points.  Try actually looking at the
features
of the machine you are talking about.  Apple will never be the absolutely
cheapest thing out there.  However, their low-end Power Macs *are*
competitively
priced.

Steve Bakke
Computer Engineering
University of Cincinnati

In article <40luqi$tfu@navajo.gate.net>, Chad Irby <cirby@news.gate.net> wrote:
>Stephen Knilans (stephenk@netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: Compaq is NOT a good comparison!  A P75 motherboard now can be
>: had for about $300!  That is WITH VESA and PCI slots, and 256K
>: cache.  At that price, I  don't think an equivalent APPLE could
>: beat it by much ! 
>
>...and once you buy the RAM, the hard drive, the power supply, the 
>keyboard, the mouse, the monitor, the video card, the CD-ROM, the 
>operating system, and all of the other stuff to make a whole operating 
>computer, you still get to put it together.

Okay, $300 for the motherboard, $200 for 8 MB RAM, $120 for 240 MB
HD, $10 for keyboard, $20 for mono monitor/card, $10 for I/O card,
$50 for PS, $0 for Linux...we're talking ~$700 for the absolute
perfect computer (okay, okay, add $1000 to replace the Pentium MB
with an Alpha if you want to get real dreamy).

>All for about the same amount of money or MORE!  WHEE!  And when 
>something goes wrong six months from now, and the place you got the 
>pieces from is out of business because they didn't make any margin on the 
>stuff they sold, you get to try and deal with a bunch of parts from 
>fifteen different companies!

Please explain.  What parts are you talking about?

a) Memory and disks are made by the same companies for Apples 
and clones so the users will experience the same number of
problems.

b) Intel is not a fly by night company.

c) The items not covered by a) and b) are of minimal cost, so
replacement is not taxing, and they do not often break anyways.
Be realistic, have you ever heard of PC user having to replace his
multi-I/O card?

Cheers, Terry Murphy

G (blackbob@sashimi.wwa.com) wrote:

: Okay, $300 for the motherboard,

I checked on this- the places that sell P75 motherboards for this price 
sell them *without CPU*.  So add an extra $350+ for a *real* motherboard.
$650 for a motherboard *with* CPU.

: $200 for 8 MB RAM,

Where do you get this?  I can't find RAM *anywhere* for under $38/meg.
So this is $300.

: $120 for 240 MB HD,

Comparing to a 500+ meg HD on the Mac.  240 megs isn't enough for *any* 
modern computer.  But you can get a 500 meg HD for about $200.

: $10 for keyboard, $20 for mono monitor/card,

Sorry- Monochrome is 1970s technology.  But I'll let you buy a nice SVGA 
card for $100.  And a basic monitor for $250. (13" 640 by 480)

: $10 for I/O card,
: $50 for PS, $0 for Linux...we're talking ~$700 for the absolute
: perfect computer (okay, okay, add $1000 to replace the Pentium MB
: with an Alpha if you want to get real dreamy).

Oh- and we forgot the modem.  And your extras.  And the CD-ROM.

No- we're talking at least 

Motherboard $650
RAM         $300
500 meg HD  $200
SVGA        $100
Monitor     $250
Modem/etc   $100
CD-ROM      $200
           ------
           $1700

...and you can get a PMac 5200 for about that- with more RAM and a bigger 
monitor.

: >All for about the same amount of money or MORE!  WHEE!  And when 
: >something goes wrong six months from now, and the place you got the 
: >pieces from is out of business because they didn't make any margin on the 
: >stuff they sold, you get to try and deal with a bunch of parts from 
: >fifteen different companies!

: Please explain.  What parts are you talking about?

: a) Memory and disks are made by the same companies for Apples 
: and clones so the users will experience the same number of
: problems.

...but the cheapo motherboards aren't.  And the I/O card isn't.  And the 
keyboard is a $10 piece of crap.  And due to the low prices here, a lot 
of this stuff isn't "name brand" anyway.  And when the incompatibilities 
start popping up...

: b) Intel is not a fly by night company.

You think you get a real Intel motherboard for that price?  Nope- you get 
a cheap Taiwan clone with an older chipset.

: c) The items not covered by a) and b) are of minimal cost, so
: replacement is not taxing, and they do not often break anyways.
: Be realistic, have you ever heard of PC user having to replace his
: multi-I/O card?

Constantly.  The folks I know who buy machines a piece at a time have a 
*lot* more trouble with hardware.  Cheap is cheap.

So to summarize: for the same amount of money, you get a slower, less- 
capable machine (lousy graphics), and you still have to assemble it 
yourself.  Bargain City.

-- 

Chad Irby           /    My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@gate.net     /      for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."

>Oh- and we forgot the modem.  And your extras.  And the CD-ROM.
>
>No- we're talking at least 
>
>Motherboard $650   - funny, how P5/90s go for $150, and you spend more
>RAM         $300          than $500 for a freaking motherboard
>500 meg HD  $200
>SVGA        $100
>Monitor     $250
>Modem/etc   $100
>CD-ROM      $200
>           ------
>           $1700
>

      $1700 is a mite bit expensive for a P75 with only 8 Meg of RAM and 
500 Meg HD.....I think you should be looking at $1600-$2000 for a P75
with 16 MB RAM and 720 Meg HD, depending on whether an unknown company 
or a real company builds it.

>...and you can get a PMac 5200 for about that- with more RAM and a bigger 
>monitor.
>
       One of those 603e based Macs?  Don't they have the "brute force"
solution to the emulator, because it supposedly ran extremely slow - so
they doubled the cache?

In article <40o3vq$t9d@reznor.larc.nasa.gov>, PJ
<pjuang@hawking.nhgs.tec.va.us> wrote:

>       $1700 is a mite bit expensive for a P75 with only 8 Meg of RAM and 
> 500 Meg HD.....I think you should be looking at $1600-$2000 for a P75
> with 16 MB RAM and 720 Meg HD, depending on whether an unknown company 
> or a real company builds it.
> 
> >...and you can get a PMac 5200 for about that- with more RAM and a bigger 
> >monitor.
> >
>        One of those 603e based Macs?  Don't they have the "brute force"
> solution to the emulator, because it supposedly ran extremely slow - so
> they doubled the cache?

Who cares? What matters is how it performs. The 5200 will be comparable to
a low end P75 in speed. A better choice would be the 7200/90 which will
run a few dollars more ($1800 w/o monitor, so let's say $2100 with the
same cheap monitor you're planning to put in your $2000 PC), but will run
rings around your P75.

-- 
Regards, Joe Ragosta -- 100% Chemical and proud of it.
Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Joseph Ragosta, 1995. License to distribute
this post is available to Microsoft for $1000. Posting without permission
constitutes an agreement to these terms. Please send notices of violation
to docjoe@interramp.com and Postmaster@microsoft.com

PJ (pjuang@hawking.nhgs.tec.va.us) wrote:

: >Motherboard $650   - funny, how P5/90s go for $150, and you spend more
: >                     than $500 for a freaking motherboard

And your source for this price?  I checked a lot of different places, and 
you can't get P5/75s for under $350, much less the more expensive P5/90.

Just give me a source for a Pentium motherboard running at 75 MHz *with* 
processor.  Every time someone tries to tell us all about these 
super-cheap Pentiums, it turns out that they never actually *bought* one 
at this price.  

It's a lot like that "8 megs of RAM for $200" price from the original 
post.  Where?  That's less than the *wholesalers* get it for.

:       $1700 is a mite bit expensive for a P75 with only 8 Meg of RAM and 
: 500 Meg HD.....I think you should be looking at $1600-$2000 for a P75
: with 16 MB RAM and 720 Meg HD, depending on whether an unknown company 
: or a real company builds it.

...even with an unknown company building it, I can't find a price of 
under $1700 for a system with *only* *eight* megs of RAM.  Tell us who you 
think sells these for this price and we'll see.  I looked at ads in the 
local paper (there are a few local clone companies that advertise in the 
Business section), and I asked some friends who run little clone 
companies out of their garages, and they want to know where you buy these 
parts so cheap so they can get some.

: >...and you can get a PMac 5200 for about that- with more RAM and a bigger 
: >monitor.
: >
:        One of those 603e based Macs?  Don't they have the "brute force"
: solution to the emulator, because it supposedly ran extremely slow - so
: they doubled the cache?

It doesn't matter, since it's still faster than those cheapo Pentiums you 
see... no Triton chipset, cheaper motherboard components, bad shielding 
in the case...

Go to one of those places that claim some of these prices, and see if 
they'll make a real machine with everything for $1500.  Make sure they 
include *all* of it... including warranties.  And make *real* sure it's 
not grey market or black market (a growing problem in some areas).

Then get back to us.
	
-- 

Chad Irby           /    My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@gate.net     /      for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."

In article <40nrin$1dbk@seminole.gate.net>,
Chad Irby <cirby@news.gate.net> wrote:
>G (blackbob@sashimi.wwa.com) wrote:
>
>: Okay, $300 for the motherboard,
>
>I checked on this- the places that sell P75 motherboards for this price 
>sell them *without CPU*.  So add an extra $350+ for a *real* motherboard.
>$650 for a motherboard *with* CPU.

I stand corrected.  $1050, then.

>: $200 for 8 MB RAM,
>
>Where do you get this?  I can't find RAM *anywhere* for under $38/meg.
>So this is $300.

I have seen 1 MB SIMMs for $25 used.  I'd be thrilled to get anywhere
near $38 for mine.

>: $120 for 240 MB HD,
>
>Comparing to a 500+ meg HD on the Mac.  240 megs isn't enough for *any* 
>modern computer.  But you can get a 500 meg HD for about $200.

Then your software is bloated.  I'm happily using Linux in
240 MB (and not because I'm cheap; I have an unused 170 MB
connected...I can't find use for it, though!)

>: $10 for keyboard, $20 for mono monitor/card,
>
>Sorry- Monochrome is 1970s technology.  

Uh, the Macintosh Classic, released in what, 1990, had monochrome,
no?  ;-)

But seriously, many people do not WANT color.  If I had SVGA
hardware, I'd still use it in text mode 100% of the time (and
I would be completely wasting the money for the SVGA hardware).

>But I'll let you buy a nice SVGA card for $100.  And a basic monitor
>for $250. (13" 640 by 480)

This is really very inflated.  Before its retirement, my
SVGA hardware (14" 1024 by 768 and 1 MB card) cost $175 
together.  Would you like a copy of the check?

>: $10 for I/O card,
>: $50 for PS, $0 for Linux...we're talking ~$700 for the absolute
>: perfect computer (okay, okay, add $1000 to replace the Pentium MB
>: with an Alpha if you want to get real dreamy).
>
>Oh- and we forgot the modem.  And your extras.  And the CD-ROM.

My comments about the SVGA hardware apply to the CD-ROM.  I DON'T
WANT IT!

>No- we're talking at least 
>           $1700
>
>...and you can get a PMac 5200 for about that- with more RAM and a bigger 
>monitor.

For $1700, you can replace the Pentium + MB for one of the
$1300 DEC Alpha MB's, run all of the above hardware (I think it
even includes the stuff on the I/O board), and have the
fastest microprocessor on the planet.

Also, the PC is running Linux, so we'll need an extremely stable
UN*X for the Macintosh.  So we'll add AUX for $x00.  Woops, doesn't
run on a Power Macintosh.  Looks like we're back at square one.
Maybe NT will do, though.

>...but the cheapo motherboards aren't.  And the I/O card isn't.  And the 
>keyboard is a $10 piece of crap.  And due to the low prices here, a lot 
>of this stuff isn't "name brand" anyway.  And when the incompatibilities 
>start popping up...

You keep mentioning silly problems like this.  What the heck is
wrong with my $10 keyboard?  It's like six years old and works just
fine.  If it's not name brand, but works, what's the problem?  What
incompatibilities does putting machines together piece by piece
cause?  Please mention specific events, not ``I know tons of people
who have problems''.

>So to summarize: for the same amount of money, you get a slower, less- 
>capable machine (lousy graphics), and you still have to assemble it 
>yourself.  Bargain City.

I can assure you that the aformentioned Alpha PC is quite a bit
faster than the 5200.

Look at ME.  I do NOT want CD-ROM, graphics, sound, etc.  etc.
I want a text only platform with a lot of CPU power, and sufficient
memory (RAM and HD).  If I have to pay for stuff I don't use, then,
well, I may as throw out money.  I do NOT experience incompatibility
problems, borken hardware, etc. etc.  For >> ME <<, is there ANY
reason why it would be more cost effective to buy a Macintosh
instead of a PC?

Cheers, Terry Murphy

G (blackbob@sashimi.wwa.com) wrote:

(about buying a piecemeal PC clone)

: I have seen 1 MB SIMMs for $25 used.  I'd be thrilled to get anywhere
: near $38 for mine.

Oh- so now we're talking about *used* machines.  I can build a Power Mac 
that's *much* faster if I buy a used one.  

(section about not needing a large hard drive deleted)

(about monochrome displays)

: But seriously, many people do not WANT color.

But seriously, you're out of your mind.  A lot of computer stores have to 
custom-order monochrome displays and cards now.  

: If I had SVGA
: hardware, I'd still use it in text mode 100% of the time (and
: I would be completely wasting the money for the SVGA hardware).

Let's see... small hard drive, don't need anything but monochrome for a 
display adapter... then why do you need a Pentium?  A 386/25 should do.

: >But I'll let you buy a nice SVGA card for $100.  And a basic monitor
: >for $250. (13" 640 by 480)

: This is really very inflated.  Before its retirement, my
: SVGA hardware (14" 1024 by 768 and 1 MB card) cost $175 
: together.  Would you like a copy of the check?

Let me guess... used equipment?  A new 14" (which the stores call a 15") 
costs more than you paid for monitor and card put together, and a quality 
one (with decent dot pitch and some level of stability) costs a good $250 
to $300+.  Show me someone who's selling a *real* 1024 by 768 monitor 
with display card for $175.  New.

: >: $10 for I/O card,
: >: $50 for PS, $0 for Linux...we're talking ~$700 for the absolute
: >: perfect computer (okay, okay, add $1000 to replace the Pentium MB
: >: with an Alpha if you want to get real dreamy).
: >
: >Oh- and we forgot the modem.  And your extras.  And the CD-ROM.

: My comments about the SVGA hardware apply to the CD-ROM.  I DON'T
: WANT IT!

Then don't buy it.  But if you want to compare prices, compare equal 
machines.  The price drops for the Mac. too, so you don't save anything here.

: >No- we're talking at least 
: >           $1700
: >
: >...and you can get a PMac 5200 for about that- with more RAM and a bigger 
: >monitor.

: For $1700, you can replace the Pentium + MB for one of the
: $1300 DEC Alpha MB's, run all of the above hardware (I think it
: even includes the stuff on the I/O board), and have the
: fastest microprocessor on the planet.

Well, you get *an* Alpha, but the basic board you mentioned (which 
doesn't have a processor, either) is a lot slower than the high-end 
Alphas.  It's not a helluva lot faster than the basic Mac we've been 
describing here.  And then you get to do fun things like add *real* I/O 
subsystems (IDE on an Alpha?), faster hard drives, much faster RAM, cache 
(not included), and all of the other toys an Alpha needs to run well.  
And you spend more money than you would for a 120 MHz PPC.  Which is 
actually *faster* than that bottom-end Alpha for a lot of things (like 
math, according to the nice folks on the benchmarking group).

(Wants to run unix.  Tough.)

(Thinks cheap hardware is just as good)

: I can assure you that the aformentioned Alpha PC is quite a bit
: faster than the 5200.

...and once you finish building it, it's twice as expensive.

Have you actually *built* one of those Alphas?  Do you know anyone who 
has?  Get the final price list and get back to us.

: Look at ME.  I do NOT want CD-ROM, graphics, sound, etc.  etc.
: I want a text only platform with a lot of CPU power, and sufficient
: memory (RAM and HD). 

That's nice.  If you're working in text only, what in the hell do you 
need all of that power for?  A really fast spellcheck?  You can't be 
doing too much to it if you only need a 240 meg HD... so why even bother 
with a Pentium, much less an Alpha?

: If I have to pay for stuff I don't use, then,
: well, I may as throw out money.  I do NOT experience incompatibility
: problems, borken hardware, etc. etc.  For >> ME <<, is there ANY
: reason why it would be more cost effective to buy a Macintosh
: instead of a PC?

Oh. So we've gone from "I can build a cheaper Pentium machine" to "I can 
build a cheaper Pentium machine if I leave a lot of stuff out."

-- 

Chad Irby           /    My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@gate.net     /      for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."

blackbob@sashimi.wwa.com (G) wrote:
>>Comparing to a 500+ meg HD on the Mac.  240 megs isn't enough for *any* 
>>modern computer.  But you can get a 500 meg HD for about $200.
>
>Then your software is bloated.  I'm happily using Linux in
>240 MB (and not because I'm cheap; I have an unused 170 MB
>connected...I can't find use for it, though!)

Maybe that's beacuse You havn't any applications for your Linux? Almost
no commercial vendors develops for it. This is true for most both low-end
desktop apps and most high-end Unix apps. Linux is maybe fun to toy with
for some people intersted in computers, but it's not a viable option in
the real computer market. And it looks like it will never be more than
that either... no matter how much YOU like it.

m a r t i n  n

-- 
mts@cd.chalmers.se 
http://www.cd.chalmers.se/~mts
mts @ IRC (on #MTS)

In article <40qdb9$5ob@nyheter.chalmers.se>, Martin Nisshagen  <d4nisse> wrote:

>>Then your software is bloated.  I'm happily using Linux in
>>240 MB (and not because I'm cheap; I have an unused 170 MB
>>connected...I can't find use for it, though!)
>
>Maybe that's beacuse You havn't any applications for your Linux? Almost
>no commercial vendors develops for it. This is true for most both low-end
>desktop apps and most high-end Unix apps. Linux is maybe fun to toy with
>for some people intersted in computers, but it's not a viable option in
>the real computer market. And it looks like it will never be more than
>that either... no matter how much YOU like it.

Woops, I cannot go to the latest computer store and buy the latest
Microsoft CD so I can watch old movie clips and listen to bird
chirps, so my computer MUST be a toy, right?

Never mind the fact, of course, that it can prepare engineering
documents, provide a world class development environment, or provide
crash-free server services, a computer must not be capable of real
work unless it runs the latest Star Wars game on CD.

Cheers, Terry Murphy

In article <40oipr$257@sashimi.wwa.com>, blackbob@sashimi.wwa.com (G) wrote:

> In article <40nrin$1dbk@seminole.gate.net>,
> Chad Irby <cirby@news.gate.net> wrote:

> >Where do you get this?  I can't find RAM *anywhere* for under $38/meg.
> >So this is $300.
> 
> I have seen 1 MB SIMMs for $25 used.  I'd be thrilled to get anywhere
> near $38 for mine.

Used? Can I give you a price on a used 7100/80 for comparison?

> >: $120 for 240 MB HD,
> >
> >Comparing to a 500+ meg HD on the Mac.  240 megs isn't enough for *any* 
> >modern computer.  But you can get a 500 meg HD for about $200.
> 
> Then your software is bloated.  I'm happily using Linux in
> 240 MB (and not because I'm cheap; I have an unused 170 MB
> connected...I can't find use for it, though!)

Terry, it's not the software. If you do anything meaningful it's probably
the files taking up all of that space. I deal with ~300MB of files on my
machine at home. At work it's 3x that and I haven't even begun playing
with video yet.

> >: $10 for keyboard, $20 for mono monitor/card,
> >
> >Sorry- Monochrome is 1970s technology.  
> 
> Uh, the Macintosh Classic, released in what, 1990, had monochrome,
> no?  ;-)
>
> But seriously, many people do not WANT color.  If I had SVGA
> hardware, I'd still use it in text mode 100% of the time (and
> I would be completely wasting the money for the SVGA hardware).

Many people? 100 people can be called 'many' people. What about most
people? Let's try and stick close to most people. If even 25% of the
personal computer buying public would be happy with monochrome I'd give it
to you. Since even fanatical Mac people won't put up with monochrome, I'd
say we have to put color VGA as a bare minimum.

> >But I'll let you buy a nice SVGA card for $100.  And a basic monitor
> >for $250. (13" 640 by 480)
> 
> This is really very inflated.  Before its retirement, my
> SVGA hardware (14" 1024 by 768 and 1 MB card) cost $175 
> together.  Would you like a copy of the check?

No. How about pricing those again today. Hell, you could have traded in an
old Impala to get that price... ;-)

> >: $10 for I/O card,
> >: $50 for PS, $0 for Linux...we're talking ~$700 for the absolute
> >: perfect computer (okay, okay, add $1000 to replace the Pentium MB
> >: with an Alpha if you want to get real dreamy).
> >
> >Oh- and we forgot the modem.  And your extras.  And the CD-ROM.
> 
> My comments about the SVGA hardware apply to the CD-ROM.  I DON'T
> WANT IT!

But most people do want it. We can't compare based on isolated cases which
you are clearly one of. By the same token I could claim that everything I
need to do would be satisfied by a used MacPlus for $50 - we need to
discuss mainstream if we wish to compare. 

The proper way of doing this would be to take a large sample of users and
compare all of their needs against what is available. You would be
averaged almost completely out of the picture. Let's instead look at the
mainstream, where the average tends to be. Right now, the 5200 is the
average Mac and the P75 seems to be the average PC. Since you can't even
buy a Mac without a CD, I'll assume that a CD is considered standard right
now. 8 MB seems to be standard. 500+MB HD seem about standard. SVGA seems
standard. Let's stick to these, won't we?

> >No- we're talking at least 
> >           $1700
> >
> >...and you can get a PMac 5200 for about that- with more RAM and a bigger 
> >monitor.
> 
> For $1700, you can replace the Pentium + MB for one of the
> $1300 DEC Alpha MB's, run all of the above hardware (I think it
> even includes the stuff on the I/O board), and have the
> fastest microprocessor on the planet.

Have the fastest microprocessor on the planet hooked to a $20 monochrome
monitor? Will that let me run Telnet faster than my MacPlus?

> Also, the PC is running Linux, so we'll need an extremely stable
> UN*X for the Macintosh.  So we'll add AUX for $x00.  Woops, doesn't
> run on a Power Macintosh.  Looks like we're back at square one.
> Maybe NT will do, though.

Why? You talk Linux for free but there aren't more stable OS's out there?
If you need to max out on stability then you need to buy more than Linux
by your own previous admission. If we want to stick to mainstream then
it's MacOS and Win.

> >...but the cheapo motherboards aren't.  And the I/O card isn't.  And the 
> >keyboard is a $10 piece of crap.  And due to the low prices here, a lot 
> >of this stuff isn't "name brand" anyway.  And when the incompatibilities 
> >start popping up...
> 
> You keep mentioning silly problems like this.  What the heck is
> wrong with my $10 keyboard?  It's like six years old and works just
> fine.  If it's not name brand, but works, what's the problem?  What
> incompatibilities does putting machines together piece by piece
> cause?  Please mention specific events, not ``I know tons of people
> who have problems''.

Again, YOUR $10 keyboard works fine, but unless you can prove that your
$10 keyboard is just as comfortable (I'd like to not wind up with any more
RSI than necessary, thank you) or reliable as a $75 keyboard then I'll
make the case for the extended keyboard I found in the trash for free - my
free keyboard is better than your $10 one. Aren't isolated cases fun?

> >So to summarize: for the same amount of money, you get a slower, less- 
> >capable machine (lousy graphics), and you still have to assemble it 
> >yourself.  Bargain City.
> 
> I can assure you that the aformentioned Alpha PC is quite a bit
> faster than the 5200.

Faster, but not more flexible or useful for the average person.

> Look at ME.  I do NOT want CD-ROM, graphics, sound, etc.  etc.
> I want a text only platform with a lot of CPU power, and sufficient
> memory (RAM and HD).  If I have to pay for stuff I don't use, then,
> well, I may as throw out money.  I do NOT experience incompatibility
> problems, borken hardware, etc. etc.  For >> ME <<, is there ANY
> reason why it would be more cost effective to buy a Macintosh
> instead of a PC?

If you don't want any of those things then why are you participating here?
To gloat? No, you don't benefit from buying a Mac, but you might very well
be one of the 1% of the population that doesn't. Feel better now?

-- 
Bob Cassidy
UC Irvine

: Look at ME.  I do NOT want CD-ROM, graphics, sound, etc.  etc.

refrain: I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM  !!!!   ;-)




I apologize for losing the posters name..  E gold

Chad Irby (cirby@news.gate.net) wrote:
: G (blackbob@sashimi.wwa.com) wrote:

[ disagreements about prices deleted]

: Oh- and we forgot the modem.  And your extras.  And the CD-ROM.

: No- we're talking at least 

: Motherboard $650
: RAM         $300
: 500 meg HD  $200
: SVGA        $100
: Monitor     $250
: Modem/etc   $100
: CD-ROM      $200
:            ------
:            $1700

: ...and you can get a PMac 5200 for about that- with more RAM and a bigger 
: monitor.

: : >All for about the same amount of money or MORE!  WHEE!  And when 
: : >something goes wrong six months from now, and the place you got the 
: : >pieces from is out of business because they didn't make any margin on the 
: : >stuff they sold, you get to try and deal with a bunch of parts from 
: : >fifteen different companies!

: : Please explain.  What parts are you talking about?

: : a) Memory and disks are made by the same companies for Apples 
: : and clones so the users will experience the same number of
: : problems.

: ...but the cheapo motherboards aren't.  And the I/O card isn't.  And the 
: keyboard is a $10 piece of crap.  And due to the low prices here, a lot 
: of this stuff isn't "name brand" anyway.  And when the incompatibilities 
: start popping up...

: : b) Intel is not a fly by night company.

: You think you get a real Intel motherboard for that price?  Nope- you get 
: a cheap Taiwan clone with an older chipset.

: : c) The items not covered by a) and b) are of minimal cost, so
: : replacement is not taxing, and they do not often break anyways.
: : Be realistic, have you ever heard of PC user having to replace his
: : multi-I/O card?

: Constantly.  The folks I know who buy machines a piece at a time have a 
: *lot* more trouble with hardware.  Cheap is cheap.

: So to summarize: for the same amount of money, you get a slower, less- 
: capable machine (lousy graphics), and you still have to assemble it 
: yourself.  Bargain City.

: -- 

: Chad Irby           /    My greatest fear: that future generations will,
: cirby@gate.net     /      for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."

I really do not enjoy seeing people pull numbers out of their heads,
especially when it's not very accurate.

I was recently given the task of looking at some prices for a friend who
wants to put a system together, out of half decent components. This is
what I found. a decent Pentium P5-100 system  could be assembled for
about $1800. without a CD-ROM, slightly less than $2K if you add a 4X IDE
CD-ROM for about $150. I'll list the break down below. I think that if
you really want to compare something against a hand assembled system, the
parts below and their respective prices should give you a good idea.
(all parts are "mail order" prices)

$235 Intel Zappa Board 
 		http://ifu.ifu.net/html/tech/rcs/contents.html
		(more advanced/faster boards run about $300-$340)
$355 Intel P5-100				
		maxk@telerama.lm.com
		(This seems like a fantastic price, though I haven't
		 verified that anyone has bought one from this guy.
		 my friend will probably try to buy one from him
		 later this week)

$70  mid tower case. 
		all over the place. you can be cheap/pressed for space
		and buy a mini tower for $40.

$500  16 megs of RAM @ 60ns
		from that Alex Sio guy @ Primenet. He claims that for 
		this price, he is able to provide 2 8 meg 60ns, non 
		parity DRAM simms made by Micron, I have not personally
		verified this, though this doesn't seem too tough to do.
		70ns RAM is cheaper, EDO is more expensive. take your
		pick. look for him on the .forsale.memory group

$30  1.44 meg floppy drive
		I've managed to pick up a few at $31 or $29 locally.
		$30 isn't very tough to do.

$50  14.4 modem	internal
		tolerable. 28.8's are $100~$200

$185  850 meg WD EIDE drive. 
		CompuPlus, reachable via gopher://pccatalog.peed.com
		or Call (800)287-2323 to Order from COMP-U-PLUS 
		a NY company, bought over $1K worth of drives from them
		before, they've never screwed up an order, Good company
		IMHO.  1.2 gig is $265.  Connors are even cheaper, though
		WD's are better than Connors IMHO.

$400  15 inch monitor + 1 meg PCI card.
		we can go cheap and get ISA 1 meg + 14 inch, but why?

$150  4X IDE CD-ROM.  
		also look on the gopher site, as listed above.

#30 ~ $150?    KB+ rodent. 

So you can put together a very nice P5-100 system W/16 megs  for about
$1800 without the sound card or CD-ROM. and running Linux on this system
wouldn't be bad at all.  IMHO I'd rather have this system+ linux instead
of the 5200 + MacOS. Though that's my opinion, you may be perfectly
happy playing with the 5200.     

In article <40s3a8$nsj@news.jf.intel.com>, dwang@ichips.intel.com (David
Wang) wrote:

> 
> I was recently given the task of looking at some prices for a friend who
> wants to put a system together, out of half decent components. This is
> what I found. a decent Pentium P5-100 system  could be assembled for
> about $1800. without a CD-ROM, slightly less than $2K if you add a 4X IDE
> CD-ROM for about $150. I'll list the break down below. I think that if
> you really want to compare something against a hand assembled system, the
> parts below and their respective prices should give you a good idea.
> (all parts are "mail order" prices) 

[snip]
> 
> So you can put together a very nice P5-100 system W/16 megs  for about
> $1800 without the sound card or CD-ROM. and running Linux on this system
> wouldn't be bad at all.  IMHO I'd rather have this system+ linux instead
> of the 5200 + MacOS. Though that's my opinion, you may be perfectly
> happy playing with the 5200.     

That's the point. You can buy a 5200 with monitor and a few hundred
dollars of software for a few hundred dollars less than your hand
assembled system. You also get a CD-ROM and built in sound.

A better comparison might be the Power Computing Power 100 or the PowerMac
7200/75 (both of which are faster than your Zappa 100). Either one of
these runs around $1800 w/o monitor or $2100 with monitor. Both come with
4X CD-ROM and sound, so the price is pretty close to your hand assembled
system. The Power 100 also comes with bundled software.

Now, add in the value of your time.
Add in the value of buying a name brand system.
Add in the value of having a warranty if something goes wrong.
Add in the value of efficiency from running MacOS (Arthur D. Little
demonstrates a 50% higher productivity than Windows. No one's ever
compared Linux because it's a hobbyist OS).

Bottom line--Mac prices absolutely destroy name brand machines at equal
performance levels. If you're example is accurate (I can't vouch for the
price of a hand-built PC since our company would never consider it), the
Macs even match your homemade system price.

-- 
Regards, Joe Ragosta -- 100% Chemical and proud of it.
Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Joseph Ragosta, 1995. License to distribute
this post is available to Microsoft for $1000. Posting without permission
constitutes an agreement to these terms. Please send notices of violation
to docjoe@interramp.com and Postmaster@microsoft.com

Martin Nisshagen (d4nisse) wrote:
: blackbob@sashimi.wwa.com (G) wrote:
: >
: >Then your software is bloated.  I'm happily using Linux in
: >240 MB (and not because I'm cheap; I have an unused 170 MB
: >connected...I can't find use for it, though!)

: Maybe that's beacuse You havn't any applications for your Linux? Almost
: no commercial vendors develops for it. This is true for most both low-end
: desktop apps and most high-end Unix apps. Linux is maybe fun to toy with
: for some people intersted in computers, but it's not a viable option in
: the real computer market. And it looks like it will never be more than
: that either... no matter how much YOU like it.

Oh, go and piss on someone else's parade. Linux is being used on many
"real world" computers.  Not every "real computer" situation involves
secretaries, werps and dtps. Many "real world" computers control fact-
ory equipment, provide resource services, store databases, crunch out
numbers, run complicated CAD packages and provide bases so that geeky
programmers can write more werps and dtps for secretaries.

Unix is still going strong. Take your head out of the clouds and look
at the wide variety of uses for computers. Your werps and dtps may be
the most popular, but this doesn't constitute the only "real computer
market". A good user interface isn't always required; not on machines
which are never touched by the user. 

--
Why, he wondered, did so many people spend their lives not trying to
find answers to questions - not even thinking of questions, to begin
with? Was there anything more exciting in life than finding answers?

In article <rmcassid-1508950936200001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:

>If you don't want any of those things then why are you participating here?

Robert, this thread is being cross-posted to comp.os.linux.advocacy.
Since I run Linux on Intel hardware, I think my idea of a worthy
system is worth being mentioned here.  If you are bothered that
there are people who reject your Macintosh view of the computing
universe, then I suggest you filter out posts which come on this
newsgroup. 

>No, you don't benefit from buying a Mac, but you might very well
>be one of the 1% of the population that doesn't. Feel better now?

Yes, I am.  Some of the Macintosh advocates, Joe Ragosta, for
example, think that every PC user is a blind pawn of IBM (sic) and
that the only reason they don't use Macintoshes is that the Evil
Monopolistc Corporations(tm) have Big Brother tendencies and over
watch all users and air secret messages through their software
saying that Macintoshes are bad, and that you should buy their
products, making the Macintosh a poor, oppressed good cause,
motivated not by desire for money, but for the holy good of
all people.

I am very happy that you, however, admit that a Macintosh is not
the machine for me and that there is a certain segment of the
computer community for who buying a Macintosh would be a horrible
mistake.

Cheers, Terry Murphy

In article <40anjl$v3o@hopi.gate.net>, Chad Irby <cirby@news.gate.net> wrote:
>Reid Conti (oakley@eskimo.com) wrote:

>:  Now if you got a REAL PC, build it 
>: yourself or have a small shop do it for you, it would be much cheaper, a 
>: p6 than a 604.  Powermacs are a royal rip-off.  I don't see why mac users 
>: can't see that, its right there in the numbers. 

>Oh- so you can guarantee that that small shop will be in business in a 
>year?  Sorry- from the standard track record of such stores, most of them 
>are here and gone in less than half that time.  And as far as building 
>your own machine... about one out of a hundred prople have the technical 
>skills to do it right, and even the people who *do* know how to do it 
>have to deal with a lot of hassle while trying to save a couple of 
>hundred bucks.  It's just not worth it.

   Well, I will agree that it is a bit of a hassle, but (as someone
who has built seven PCs and has been a consultant for other people
building PCs) the bulk of this hassle comes when you start adding
additional hardware to the basic machine; a chore that many people
face even when they buy their basic machines off the shelf.  The
Mac is nice in that they don't have that blasphemy known as the IDE
drive (or didn't; I don't know about some of the el-cheapo performas)
and the only thing you need to worry about when adding DASD is whether
you've got your SCSI bus properly terminated, but, if you're sensible,
neither does a homebuilt PC.


>: Whereas if I build a PC up myself, I might pay for the 
>: advertising of the harddisk company and the motherboard, processer 
>: company (Intel) but that's it. 
>
>...and the time you spend building the thing.  Unless your time is worth 
>zero dollars an hour to you (should we tell your boss?)

   Do you pay someone else to eat dinner for you?  After all, it's
a hour of your valuable time, and your boss would be happy to know
that you're, um, 'working' for free.  And the next time you're
thinking about buying a hard drive, you'd better hire some teenager
to do it for $4.25 a hour, since your time is Too Valuable to WASTE
by calling MacWarehouse and ordering the SCSI disk of the month.


                 ____
   david parsons \bi/ Though perhaps the concept of fun is missing from
                  \/                                 the Mac vocabulary.

Joe Ragosta (docjoe@interramp.com) wrote:

: That's the point. You can buy a 5200 with monitor and a few hundred
: dollars of software for a few hundred dollars less than your hand
: assembled system. You also get a CD-ROM and built in sound.

actually, by the time you spec that 5200 box to 16 megs + 1.2 gig drive,
etc. etc. to comparable configs, it'll cost more.

: Now, add in the value of your time.
: Add in the value of buying a name brand system.
: Add in the value of having a warranty if something goes wrong.
: Add in the value of efficiency from running MacOS (Arthur D. Little
: demonstrates a 50% higher productivity than Windows. No one's ever
: compared Linux because it's a hobbyist OS).

Building your system definitely isn't for everyone.  I do it just because
I get to choose the quality/price of the components that go into my
system.  you might have noticed that at times I chose more expensive
components because I wanted to be assured of the quality.  All the
components would be new, and warrented by their respective manufactuers.
The incentive to build your own to save money is disappearing fast.
Especially in light of all the recent prices cuts by top notch system
vendors.

You forget that MacOS isn't for everyone either, and that for some people
the omnipresent GUI gets in the way of actually getting work done.  

: Bottom line--Mac prices absolutely destroy name brand machines at equal
: performance levels. If you're example is accurate (I can't vouch for the
: price of a hand-built PC since our company would never consider it), the
: Macs even match your homemade system price.

Actually, you started to use Power Computing as an example, and PowerMac
prices are still high relative to most systems, and certainly don't
"destroy" name brand machines. Take this as an example.  In Aug 15th's
New York Times Science there is a company called Newtech that advertises
a Compaq Presario 972, 75 MHz pentium, 8 Meg of RAM, 725 Meg drive, 4X
cd-rom, 14.4 fax modem, 14 inch SVGA monitor  for $1748. 
That price is definitely not "destroyed" by anything from Apple's camp.
Also, Compaq just announced that across the board price cuts, so these
prices should drop as well.

Newtech's number   (212)695-9898
Compaq article @ http://www.zdnet.com/~pcweek/news/0814/compq.html

: -- 
: Regards, Joe Ragosta -- 100% Chemical and proud of it.
: [Microsoft blah..]

In article <40tote$bvi@sashimi.wwa.com>, blackbob@sashimi.wwa.com (G) wrote:

> In article <rmcassid-1508950936200001@dante.eng.uci.edu>,
> Robert Cassidy <rmcassid@uci.edu> wrote:
> 
> >If you don't want any of those things then why are you participating here?
> 
> Robert, this thread is being cross-posted to comp.os.linux.advocacy.
> Since I run Linux on Intel hardware, I think my idea of a worthy
> system is worth being mentioned here.  If you are bothered that
> there are people who reject your Macintosh view of the computing
> universe, then I suggest you filter out posts which come on this
> newsgroup. 

Sorry, I didn't notice that cross-post. But nevertheless, the standard
configuration for a system these days seems to be radically different from
what you have proposed. Not that your opinion doesn't count, just that we
need to maintain the view that we are representing a significant
population of the buying public. My view of a worthy system might include
30fps full screen video capture - but I won't for a second present the
view that that is a common requirement at this time. CD-ROM, color display
I will argue to the end is considered common - even among the Linux crowd.
If we do not at least try to present arguments from the viewpoint of the
masses then it becomes a completely worthless discussion.

> >No, you don't benefit from buying a Mac, but you might very well
> >be one of the 1% of the population that doesn't. Feel better now?
> 
> Yes, I am.  Some of the Macintosh advocates, Joe Ragosta, for
> example, think that every PC user is a blind pawn of IBM (sic) and
> that the only reason they don't use Macintoshes is that the Evil
> Monopolistc Corporations(tm) have Big Brother tendencies and over
> watch all users and air secret messages through their software
> saying that Macintoshes are bad, and that you should buy their
> products, making the Macintosh a poor, oppressed good cause,
> motivated not by desire for money, but for the holy good of
> all people.

Well, that might be a bit overexaggerated of Joe, but I will admit that
there are plenty of people that do in fact fit that mold. Keep in mind
that from this side of the fence we get just as many PC'rs copping the
same attitude - some of us have become quite overdefensive.

It's very difficult when someone of supposed high qualifications shows up
and informs you that they will remove these slow PowerMacintosh toys for a
'real' 486 system or some such crap. And then half the publications in the
world seem to back them up - what with the report that System 7.5 will
offer the Windows 95 like feature of long filenames - geez, where do they
get this stuff?

> I am very happy that you, however, admit that a Macintosh is not
> the machine for me and that there is a certain segment of the
> computer community for who buying a Macintosh would be a horrible
> mistake.

I think there is a sizable segment of the market where Mac is a horrible
mistake. I also think there is a sizable sement of the market where PC's
are a horrible mistake. Unfortunately, it is OK for a PC to be recommended
where it doesn't belong but it is not OK for a Mac to be recommended where
it doesn't belong and often even where it *does* belong. It's enough some
times for me to just give up and sell my Powermac for a nice IBM
typewriter - the old heavy metal ones that make the comforting thunking
sound when the wheel strikes the paper.

-- 
Bob Cassidy
UC Irvine

In article <40nrin$1dbk@seminole.gate.net>,
Chad Irby <cirby@news.gate.net> wrote:
>
>No- we're talking at least 
>
>Motherboard $650
>RAM         $300
>500 meg HD  $200
>SVGA        $100
>Monitor     $250
>Modem/etc   $100
>CD-ROM      $200
>           ------
>           $1700


   Shoot, I can do better than this at Frys. (a Bay Area
superstore, with distinctly nonsuper prices.)

   Motherboard:  ~400
   RAM:          ~300
   500mb HD:     ~160
   SVGA:         ~ 70	(Rock-stupid VGA card with 1mb)
   Monitor:      ~170   (14" SVGA)
   "Modem/etc":  ~ 50   (14.4 int)
		 ~ 40   (multi-io card)
   CD-ROM:       ~160   (vanilla IDE cd-rom, 4x)
		 ----
		~1350


   Or I can just buy the thing prebuilt for $1560 and get a
warranty and everything.  (The closest PowerPC box I can find in
the ad is a Performa 6200CD or 5215CD, with a 4x cd-rom and a 1gb
drive, (worth about $200 more for the two of 'em), for $2300.)


   *do* attempt to shop around before quoting prices, would you?

                 ____
   david parsons \bi/ Or at least quote the prices of Power Computing boxes,
                  \/                which appear to actually be competitive.

rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) wrote:
>> Yes, I am.  Some of the Macintosh advocates, Joe Ragosta, for
>> example, think that every PC user is a blind pawn of IBM (sic) and
>> that the only reason they don't use Macintoshes is that the Evil
>> Monopolistc Corporations(tm) have Big Brother tendencies and over
>> watch all users and air secret messages through their software
>> saying that Macintoshes are bad, and that you should buy their
>> products, making the Macintosh a poor, oppressed good cause,
>> motivated not by desire for money, but for the holy good of
>> all people.
>
>Well, that might be a bit overexaggerated of Joe, but I will admit that
>there are plenty of people that do in fact fit that mold. Keep in mind
>that from this side of the fence we get just as many PC'rs copping the
>same attitude - some of us have become quite overdefensive.

I do not agree. Sometimes it's very funny to read the postings from this
type of 'rabid' users. Joe Ragosta is for example my favorite mac-pope
who makes such out-of-touch-with-reality-postings that it's very hard to
not get a good laught everytime You read them! :)

m a r t i n  n

-- 
mts@cd.chalmers.se 
http://www.cd.chalmers.se/~mts
mts @ IRC (on #MTS)

G (blackbob@sashimi.wwa.com) wrote:

: Yes, I am.  Some of the Macintosh advocates, Joe Ragosta, for
: example, think that every PC user is a blind pawn of IBM (sic) and
: that the only reason they don't use Macintoshes is that the Evil
: Monopolistc Corporations(tm) have Big Brother tendencies and over
: watch all users and air secret messages through their software
: saying that Macintoshes are bad, and that you should buy their
: products, making the Macintosh a poor, oppressed good cause,
: motivated not by desire for money, but for the holy good of
: all people.

You forget IBM is good now, it's Microsoft who's evil. <g>  And nice try at 
deconstructing Joe - be careful, your agenda is showing...

: I am very happy that you, however, admit that a Macintosh is not
: the machine for me and that there is a certain segment of the
: computer community for who buying a Macintosh would be a horrible
: mistake.

"Horrible mistake?"  (see above)

: Cheers, Terry Murphy
-- 
                                             ckoller@netcom.com