🚀 go-pugleaf

"Bill Jonesi" <jonesi@pcmagic.net> wrote in message
news:40C24182.7182@pcmagic.net...
> The Old Ridge Route between Templin Hwy & N2 is marked "road closed" or
> "not a through road x miles ahead", from both directions. I haven't been
> down them to see why but I would guess landslide. Considering the
> condition of the road from N2 to Liebre Mtn road, I don't think the road
> has seen any upkeep in 30+ years.
>
> Bill
>
How much would it cost to reopen this road?

You could take CA-2 from La Canada-Flintridge to Wrightwood. Or CA-2 then to
N-3 to Palmdale.


"Larry Scholnick" <Larry_Scholnick@Yahoo.Com> wrote in message
news:z9nwc.80135$gG2.2932@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> There are a limited number of  freeway routes out of the Los Angeles
> metropolitan area:
>
> US-101 (northwest),  I-5 (north), CA-14 (north),  I-15 (northeast), I-10
> (east), I-15 (south), and I-5 (south).
>
> Most of these routes have one or more 'choke points'; points where if
there
> were a freeway closure, there would be no nearby alternate routes
available.
>
> * US-101: About 1 mile northwest of CA-33.
> Nearest Alternative north: CA-33 north to CA-150 west.
> Nearest Alternative south: Swim!
>
> * I-5 north: From Fort Tejon to Grapevine, CA.
> Nearest Alternative west:  Frazier Mountain Park Rd to Mil Potrero Hwy
> through Pine Mountain Club to Cerro Noroeste to CA-166/CA-33 to Maricopa,
> then east on CA-166.
> Nearest Alternative east: CA-138 to 90th St West to Tehachapi-Willow
Springs
> Rd, then west on CA-58.
>
> I-5 north: north of Templin Hwy:
> Nearest Alternative west: CA-126 to US-101 to CA-33 to CA-166.
> Nearest Alternative east: Lake Hughes Rd to Pine Canyon Rd/County N-2 to
> Three Points Rd to CA-138.
>
> * CA-14: No choke point; Sierra Hwy is intact into Kern County, with
> numerous nearby alternates.  However, a big enough earthquake could close
> the entire Newhall Pass (I-5/CA-14/San Fernando Rd/Foothill Blvd):
> Nearest Alternative west: CA-118 to CA-23 to CA-126.
> Nearest Alternative east: I-210 to Osborne St to Little Tujunga Canyon Rd,
> then either Sand Canyon Rd or Placerita Canyon Rd to CA-14.
>
> * I-15 north: Just south of CA-138 in Cajon Pass.
> Nearest alternative east: Rim of the World Hwy (CA-18) to Crestline, then
> northwest on CA-138.
> Nearest Alternative west: Lytle Creek Rd to Lone Pine Canyon Rd, then east
> on CA-138.
>
> * I-10: Just west of CA-111 in San Gorgonio Pass.
> Nearest Alternative north:  CA-18 to Lucerne Valley, then CA-247 (Old
Woman
> Springs Rd) to Yucca Valley, then CA-62 (either west to I-10 or east to
> CA-177 to I-10).
> Nearest Alternative south: CA 79 to Hemet (or CA-243 through Idyllwild),
> then CA-74 to Palm Desert.
>
> * I-15 south: No real choke point; Temescal Cyn (old CA-71) or Old Hwy 395
> are available at key points, with numerous nearby alternates in the
Temecula
> area and in San Diego county.  Plus, I-215 is available as an alternate to
> I-15 anywhere between Murietta and Devore.
>
> * I-5 south: At Camp Pendleton (why do you think they placed the Border
> Patrol station here?)
> Nearest Alternative east: CA-74/Ortega Hwy to I-15 to CA-76 or CA-78.
> Nearest Alternative west: Swim!
>
> * CA-91: At the Orange county/Riverside county line at Green River
> (admittedly, this is still within the L.A. basin, but the lack of
alternates
> makes it worth listing):
> Nearest Alternative north: CA-90 to Valencia Ave to Carbon Cyn/CA-142 to
> CA-71.
> Nearest Alternative south: I-5 south to Ortega Hwy/CA-74.
>
> My point is to remind us how vulnerable most of our key transportation
> routes are.  Some of these alternates take more than two hours to drive,
> even without the load of traffic that would be forced to use the route in
> the event of a freeway closure.  If we ever have to evacuate Los Angeles
(I
> know, it would never happen--I've been watching too many junk TV movies,
> such as NBC's 10.5 ), we would all be in deep trouble.
>
> And how did we get this way?  Caltrans eliminated (paved over) key
portions
> of the earlier routes (such as the Old Ridge Route and the Golden State
Hwy)
> in the process of building our current freeways.
>
>

"Scott in Aztl�n" <slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com> wrote in message
news:3565c0poethts2igfjp3canm7c3a5s418k@4ax.com...
> I've said this very same thing many times. That's why I'm buying a cheap
SUV
> (now that prices are dropping like Lead Zeppelins), filing a PNO (Planned
> Non-Operation) on it, and keeping it handy in case I need to escape the
basin.
> With millions of people all trying to flee the basin at once on the
already
> overloaded freeways, the only way out will be over the mountains via the
truck
> trails or via boat (and a boat is too expensive to keep if you aren't
going to
> be using it, plus you still have to tow it to the water and launch it)

We motorcycle guys will still beat you with lane splitting.   I love it when
traffic is totally stopped.  I can lane split much faster and safer in
stopped traffic.

In article <3565c0poethts2igfjp3canm7c3a5s418k@4ax.com>,
 Scott in Aztl?n <slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com> wrote:

> In ca.driving, Larry Scholnick said:
> 
> >My point is to remind us how vulnerable most of our key transportation
> >routes are. If we ever have to evacuate Los Angeles (I
> >know, it would never happen--I've been watching too many junk TV movies,
> >such as NBC's 10.5 ), we would all be in deep trouble.
> 
> I've said this very same thing many times. That's why I'm buying a cheap SUV
> (now that prices are dropping like Lead Zeppelins), filing a PNO (Planned
> Non-Operation) on it, and keeping it handy in case I need to escape the basin.
> With millions of people all trying to flee the basin at once on the already
> overloaded freeways, the only way out will be over the mountains via the truck
> trails or via boat (and a boat is too expensive to keep if you aren't going to
> be using it, plus you still have to tow it to the water and launch it)
> 
> >And how did we get this way?  
> 
> Because we're surrounded by big mountains with only a few narrow passes?

Mountain trails will instantly clog with stuck cars, broken down SUVs, 
and everybody who started their escape with only 2 gallons in the tank.  
Going around that mess will involve hours of poor traction and long 
detours.  You'll probably run out of gas or get the SUV stuck.

If I had to evacuate Silicon Valley, I'd do it on a bicycle and on foot.

"Scott in Aztl�n" <slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com> wrote in message
news:9ht6c0dam6btsashvucba03qdbdg94c8tn@4ax.com...

> Does your wife have a motorcycle, too, or does she ride on the back of
yours?
> How about your infant son? Do you wrap him in swaddling clothes and dangle
him
> from the handlebars? Oh, and I hope your suitcases are nice and small...

I am too repulsive and too much of a geek to have a wife and kids.  My
motorcycle has three suitcases or hard cases as they are called.  I ride the
same type motorcycle (BMW R1100RT) used by the CHP and other police forces.

I didn't  say this is a solution for everyone.  It just increases the
chances of survivable for some of us.

Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote in message news:<mcmurtri-E6CF3C.14151706062004@corp-radius.supernews.com>...
> In article <3565c0poethts2igfjp3canm7c3a5s418k@4ax.com>,
>  Scott in Aztl?n <slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com> wrote:
> 
> > In ca.driving, Larry Scholnick said:
> > 
> > >My point is to remind us how vulnerable most of our key transportation
> > >routes are. If we ever have to evacuate Los Angeles (I
> > >know, it would never happen--I've been watching too many junk TV movies,
> > >such as NBC's 10.5 ), we would all be in deep trouble.
> > 
> > I've said this very same thing many times. That's why I'm buying a cheap SUV
> > (now that prices are dropping like Lead Zeppelins), filing a PNO (Planned
> > Non-Operation) on it, and keeping it handy in case I need to escape the basin.
> > With millions of people all trying to flee the basin at once on the already
> > overloaded freeways, the only way out will be over the mountains via the truck
> > trails or via boat (and a boat is too expensive to keep if you aren't going to
> > be using it, plus you still have to tow it to the water and launch it)
> > 
> > >And how did we get this way?  
> > 
> > Because we're surrounded by big mountains with only a few narrow passes?
> 
> Mountain trails will instantly clog with stuck cars, broken down SUVs, 
> and everybody who started their escape with only 2 gallons in the tank.  
> Going around that mess will involve hours of poor traction and long 
> detours.  You'll probably run out of gas or get the SUV stuck.
> 
> If I had to evacuate Silicon Valley, I'd do it on a bicycle and on foot.

 This brings up an interesting question: What if Los Angeles had to be
evacuated, how would you do it, and what would be the dangers one
would have to look out for? I'm thinking gangs, looters, people going
crazy and shooting other people, that kind of thing. And what about
roads? Seems freeways would be out of the question, scince everyone is trying
to get out at once. Off road? Maybe in the moutains, but most would still
have to get through the urban areas first. If the disaster didn't involve 
earthquakes (tsunamies), wouldn't it be much safer to sail out to sea
if you could?

Proprclr wrote:
>  This brings up an interesting question: What if Los Angeles had to be
> evacuated, how would you do it, and what would be the dangers one
> would have to look out for? I'm thinking gangs, looters, people going
> crazy and shooting other people, that kind of thing. And what about
> roads? Seems freeways would be out of the question, scince everyone is trying
> to get out at once. Off road? Maybe in the moutains, but most would still
> have to get through the urban areas first. If the disaster didn't involve 
> earthquakes (tsunamies), wouldn't it be much safer to sail out to sea
> if you could?

This is answered pretty well in "Lucifer's Hammer".  In a disaster, pretty
much nobody would be able to get out of any major city, and if they did,
the places they flee to wouldn't be able to support them (& expect the
local residents to know this and find ways to block the roads against the
refugees).

If you really expect a disaster to occur and want to survive it, move to a
sturdy cabin (or better yet, a nice deep cave) in Bumfuck, MT now, and do
your stocking up _before_ the disaster hits.  Otherwise, whether you
survive it will be determined entirely by dumb luck, ie, does the quake/
tidal wave/tornado/flood/fire/terrorist act happen to land on your city or
some other city?

In article <10c93h84silepe0@corp.supernews.com>, {STP} <stp@nospam.now> 
wrote:

> In article <v4t8c091iir0nhsljraj238giliinf26lj@4ax.com>,
>  Scott in Aztl?n <slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com> wrote:
> 
> > Indeed - the freeways are already close to useless, and anyone who 
> > has tried to leave town for a holiday weekend getaway can attest.
> 
> In the case of a truly serious disaster, however, they'd double their 
> outbound capacities and they'd be one-way roads.
>

Ventura, SB, SLO, Kern, the Inland Empire and points distant await with 
open arms our friends from LA, SFV and Orange.  I'd never make it to my 
mountain cabin in Wrightwood and even if I did there's nothing to eat 
and there's an LDS temple that would probably turn back any heathen 
anyway.  There's no historic precedent for the kind of disaster being 
discussed.  The closest would be SF 1906.  The quake was bad but the 
fires worse and there were only 500,000 people there.  Modern LA 
building densities and distances to water and lack of geographical 
breaks forbode that any quake large enough to break water supplies will 
end in conflagration.

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 06:38:21 -0700, John David Galt
<jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:

>Proprclr wrote:
>>  This brings up an interesting question: What if Los Angeles had to be
>> evacuated, 

They wouldn't do it.

Feds would "contain" the city and provide "assistance centers"

In these days of jet travel and mobile populations, it wouldn't matter
much in a bio-terrorism scenario anyway.

About the only time it wold matter would be in a major natural
disaster.

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:33:34 -0700, Robert  Cot� <tscn@adelph.net>
wrote:

> 
>> In the case of a truly serious disaster, however, they'd double their 
>> outbound capacities and they'd be one-way roads.
>>
Which worked really "well" during the firestorms last year in San
Diego and San Bernardino... NOT !

On 7 Jun 2004 06:18:27 -0700, balanco01@yahoo.com (Proprclr) wrote:

>
> This brings up an interesting question: What if Los Angeles had to be
>evacuated, how would you do it, and what would be the dangers one
>would have to look out for? I'm thinking gangs, looters, people going
>crazy and shooting other people, that kind of thing. And what about
>roads? Seems freeways would be out of the question, scince everyone is trying
>to get out at once. Off road? Maybe in the moutains, but most would still
>have to get through the urban areas first. If the disaster didn't involve 
>earthquakes (tsunamies), wouldn't it be much safer to sail out to sea
>if you could?


Simple fact of life...Los Angeles Cannot be evacuated. Period. End
Program, Full Stop.  

Way too many people over too vast an area.  Even I have had to make a
number of alternative bugout plans for a  evac event.  And while Im
sneaky and devious..there are few options open depending on where Im
at in the LA basin if things turn to shit.

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
		- George Orwell

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:33:34 -0700, Robert  Cot� <tscn@adelph.net>
wrote:

>In article <10c93h84silepe0@corp.supernews.com>, {STP} <stp@nospam.now> 
>wrote:
>
>> In article <v4t8c091iir0nhsljraj238giliinf26lj@4ax.com>,
>>  Scott in Aztl?n <slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Indeed - the freeways are already close to useless, and anyone who 
>> > has tried to leave town for a holiday weekend getaway can attest.
>> 
>> In the case of a truly serious disaster, however, they'd double their 
>> outbound capacities and they'd be one-way roads.
>>
>
>Ventura, SB, SLO, Kern, the Inland Empire and points distant await with 
>open arms our friends from LA, SFV and Orange.  I'd never make it to my 
>mountain cabin in Wrightwood and even if I did there's nothing to eat 
>and there's an LDS temple that would probably turn back any heathen 
>anyway.  There's no historic precedent for the kind of disaster being 
>discussed.  The closest would be SF 1906.  The quake was bad but the 
>fires worse and there were only 500,000 people there.  Modern LA 
>building densities and distances to water and lack of geographical 
>breaks forbode that any quake large enough to break water supplies will 
>end in conflagration.

Indeed. Sheltering in place is probably one of the best options,
assuming the situation can allow it. Tsunamis etc not withstanding.

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
		- George Orwell

In article <7od9c0h2bpk8t9t6h9g2hsrs1tedul7b8b@4ax.com>,
 Watched <TheWatched@hotmail.com> wrote:

> someone wrote:
> 
> > 
> >> In the case of a truly serious disaster, however, they'd double their 
> >> outbound capacities and they'd be one-way roads.
> >>
> Which worked really "well" during the firestorms last year in San
> Diego and San Bernardino... NOT !
> 

There's a difference between the 1x1 mountains roads and freeways but it 
doesn't matter.  The roads out of LA don't go anywhere the population 
can go to or get to.  

heck, the places the last wave of Angelenos are fleeing to; Phoenix, 
Central Valley, Las Vegas, Oregon, Washington are barely able to cope 
with that trvial influx.  Just ask them.

In article <v4t8c091iir0nhsljraj238giliinf26lj@4ax.com>, slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com says...
>
>In ca.driving, Proprclr said:
>
>>> Mountain trails will instantly clog with stuck cars, broken down SUVs, 
>>> and everybody who started their escape with only 2 gallons in the tank.  
>
>How many people are going to have the idea to cross the mountains via the truck
>trails? How many even know that the truck trails *exist*?
>
>Most people are going to head straight for the freeway and will be hopelessly
>mired there.

Freeways, concrete river beds, railroad tracks, storm drains, every 
road anyone can think of to use...

>>> Going around that mess will involve hours of poor traction and long 
>>> detours.  You'll probably run out of gas or get the SUV stuck.
>
>Hmm... So I'd better install a winch, some tow cable, and a large auxiliary fuel
>tank. ;)
> 
>>> If I had to evacuate Silicon Valley, I'd do it on a bicycle and on foot.
>
>Again, I hope you don't have a lot of food, water, and other supplies that you
>want to bring along... ;)

You can carry a lot on bicycle packs and tow along carriers...

And of course, if you have a retreat or cache, all you need is
enough to make it to the retreat or cache site.

>> This brings up an interesting question: What if Los Angeles had to be
>>evacuated, how would you do it, and what would be the dangers one
>>would have to look out for? 
>
>Ever read "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle? They gave a lot
>of thought to what would happen if the LA Basin faced a massive catastrophe (in
>this case, a meteor striking the earth).

The thing is, Niven's meteor didn't hit without warning.  They
knew it was coming, and the people who were smart (and could)
got out of the cities ahead of time...

>>Seems freeways would be out of the question, scince everyone is trying
>>to get out at once. 
>
>Indeed - the freeways are already close to useless, and anyone who has tried to
>leave town for a holiday weekend getaway can attest.
>
>>Off road? Maybe in the moutains, but most would still
>>have to get through the urban areas first. If the disaster didn't involve 
>>earthquakes (tsunamies), wouldn't it be much safer to sail out to sea
>>if you could?
>
>Sure. Where's your boat? How much will it cost you to buy? Where will you keep
>it? How much will it cost you to "park" (or whatever you do with a boat when
>you're not using it and you don't have a slip at the dock)? How will you get it
>to the shore to launch it? What vehicle will you use to tow it?
>
>Come to think of it, perhaps one of those amphicars from the 60s would be a
>better solution... You could drive it to the nearest drainage ditch, follow the
>ditch to the ocean, and sail on outta here... As long as the waves weren't too
>big - those things look like they swamp easily. ;)

One suggestion that usually comes up in discussions like this
is ultralights.  If you've got the room to store one, maybe
disassembled, and a stretch of street you can use as a take-off
strip, there's not much that could stop you from getting out
even if everything else is plugged solid.

As long as people don't shoot at you as you go flying by.

FW

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 23:45:47 -0400, Rick <notgilrick@alltel.net>
wrote:

>> > No, best to be out of there WAY before. Only, how do you know WHEN?
>>
>> Follow the radar weather images on the internet.
>> You can make a good prediction, based on speed and direction of the
>> storm, when to move out of the way.
>
>Problem with that, Lawrence, is "WOLF!"...
>Happens in Florida all the time. People tend to get complacent about it.
>
>It so happens that I attended the  Georgia Governor's "Hurricane Preparedness"
>Council back in the mid 80's. In Savannah.  <g>
> Our "assignment" after the council was to prepare for the evacuation of
>Savannah in the event of a major hurricane.
>
>It was a total cluster F***.  No one seemed to comprehend that it just
>wouldn't work. Didn't think it was going to work then, and saw it didn't work
>a few years back. But there were "wiser" heads than mine who prevailed in
>their way of thinking.
>*Don't* trust the government to be prepared. Trust yourself to get out when
>you can.

Always trust your gut instincts.  That *little voice inside* is
usually correct, and easily drowned out by the other noises that enter
through the ears.

Back in the 50's, I had to ride out Hurricane Carol as it smashed into
Rhode Island Sound.  I was right on the waterfront.  Alone, 10ish, and
scared shitless.  It was a bastard of a storm.  Took my neighborhood
and tossed things about like they were toys ( houses, garages,
anything not tied down ).  I remember going out when the Eye passed
over.  The entire horizon, 360 degrees, looked like it was in flames.
Nothing in the air; no birds, sounds, nothing.

About 20 minutes later the other side of the wall hit, and I was
hoping I would be alive the next day.  The tidal surge alone washed
away beaches and lowland houses.  It was a bastard of a storm.  I had
no way to escape.

Having been through _that_, I will never prepare for a Hurricane Party
ever.  I will be somewhere else, far far away, with Homeowner's
insurance policy in hand.

The biggest natural threat where I live now are tornados.  We've had
quite a few touch down nearby.  They turn neighborhoods into
toothpicks.  You don't know when or where they are going to strike,
but when they do, they show no mercy.

Mother Nature isn't something to be toyed with.  We ( some of us )
have a thinking brain.  Let's use it.  It is one of our most important
survival tools.

Lg

> "Bill Jonesi" <jonesi@pcmagic.net> wrote
>
> The Old Ridge Route between Templin Hwy & N2 is marked "road closed" or
> "not a through road x miles ahead", from both directions. I haven't been
> down them to see why but I would guess landslide. Considering the
> condition of the road from N2 to Liebre Mtn road, I don't think the road
> has seen any upkeep in 30+ years.

It's passable, even in a passenger car. Just drove it yesterday. You have to
slow down for ruts here and there, and a couple short stretches are now just
dirt. However, if lots of people tried to use it in both directions at the
same time, it wouldn't be much faster than a brisk walk. The part no longer
maintained by LA County, by the way, is 18 miles long.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@ix.netcom.com

> "Larry Scholnick" <Larry_Scholnick@Yahoo.Com> wrote
>
> * US-101: About 1 mile northwest of CA-33.
> Nearest Alternative north: CA-33 north to CA-150 west.
> Nearest Alternative south: Swim!

Given that the hill is pretty steep, and the RR runs through there, too, I'm
not surprised they buried the old road.

> * I-5 north: From Fort Tejon to Grapevine, CA.
> Nearest Alternative west:  Frazier Mountain Park Rd to Mil Potrero Hwy
> through Pine Mountain Club to Cerro Noroeste to CA-166/CA-33 to Maricopa,
> then east on CA-166.
> Nearest Alternative east: CA-138 to 90th St West to Tehachapi-Willow
Springs
> Rd, then west on CA-58.

Again, the Grapevine is an awfully skinny canyon. Preserving a second road
through there wouldn't have been practical.

> I-5 north: north of Templin Hwy:
> Nearest Alternative west: CA-126 to US-101 to CA-33 to CA-166.
> Nearest Alternative east: Lake Hughes Rd to Pine Canyon Rd/County N-2 to
> Three Points Rd to CA-138.

There, I-5 follows a different route from the old US-99, but the latter got
buried under a few gallons of water when they built Pyramid Lake.

> * I-15 north: Just south of CA-138 in Cajon Pass.
> Nearest alternative east: Rim of the World Hwy (CA-18) to Crestline, then
> northwest on CA-138.
> Nearest Alternative west: Lytle Creek Rd to Lone Pine Canyon Rd, then east
> on CA-138.

Other than the RR tracks, there's plenty of room here. This one could be
fixed, with a couple of bridges over the tracks.

> * I-10: Just west of CA-111 in San Gorgonio Pass.
> Nearest Alternative north:  CA-18 to Lucerne Valley, then CA-247 (Old
Woman
> Springs Rd) to Yucca Valley, then CA-62 (either west to I-10 or east to
> CA-177 to I-10).
> Nearest Alternative south: CA 79 to Hemet (or CA-243 through Idyllwild),
> then CA-74 to Palm Desert.

Plenty of room for a secondary road there, at least geographically.

> * I-5 south: At Camp Pendleton (why do you think they placed the Border
> Patrol station here?)
> Nearest Alternative east: CA-74/Ortega Hwy to I-15 to CA-76 or CA-78.
> Nearest Alternative west: Swim!

Another area where there's plenty of room, but for the military base.

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@ix.netcom.com

"Scott in Aztl�n" <slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com> wrote in message
news:v4t8c091iir0nhsljraj238giliinf26lj@4ax.com...
> How many people are going to have the idea to cross the mountains via the
truck
> trails? How many even know that the truck trails *exist*?

Probably all those people that actually believe the SUV commercials about
taking their vehicles across country when there is little chance the SUV
would go very far before they were broken.

I saw a fairly new SUV at a construction site that went over a standard
curve to get to the street.  That small little bit of roughness made the
drive shaft break and drop to the ground.

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 06:31:35 GMT, "Jack May" <jack.may@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>"Scott in Aztl�n" <slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com> wrote in message
>news:v4t8c091iir0nhsljraj238giliinf26lj@4ax.com...
>> How many people are going to have the idea to cross the mountains via the
>truck
>> trails? How many even know that the truck trails *exist*?
>
>Probably all those people that actually believe the SUV commercials about
>taking their vehicles across country when there is little chance the SUV
>would go very far before they were broken.
>
>I saw a fairly new SUV at a construction site that went over a standard
>curve to get to the street.  That small little bit of roughness made the
>drive shaft break and drop to the ground.

I'm still waiting to see a Hummer with some dirt on it. ;)
Even here in Arkansas I've yet to see one.

"Paul D. DeRocco" wrote:
> 
> > "Bill Jonesi" <jonesi@pcmagic.net> wrote
> >
> > The Old Ridge Route between Templin Hwy & N2 is marked "road closed" or
> > "not a through road x miles ahead", from both directions. I haven't been
> > down them to see why but I would guess landslide. Considering the
> > condition of the road from N2 to Liebre Mtn road, I don't think the road
> > has seen any upkeep in 30+ years.
> 
> It's passable, even in a passenger car. Just drove it yesterday. You have to
> slow down for ruts here and there, and a couple short stretches are now just
> dirt. However, if lots of people tried to use it in both directions at the
> same time, it wouldn't be much faster than a brisk walk. The part no longer
> maintained by LA County, by the way, is 18 miles long.

I'm glad to hear that.  It was a neat road to do on a motorcycle after
it had been neglected for a while, perhaps dear lord 30 years ago.  Good
smells, quiet except for bird/grass sounds and the pleasant hiss of the
I-5 traffic below.

-- 
Cheers,
Bev
=========================================================
"If you watch TV news, you know less about the world than 
if you just drank gin straight from the bottle."  
                                       - Garrison Keillor

Jack May wrote:

> We motorcycle guys will still beat you with lane splitting.   I love it when
> traffic is totally stopped.  I can lane split much faster and safer in
> stopped traffic.

Unless some shithead kid deliberately opens his door in front of you.  

-- 
Cheers,
Bev
=========================================================
"If you watch TV news, you know less about the world than 
if you just drank gin straight from the bottle."  
                                       - Garrison Keillor

"Scott in Aztl�n" wrote:
> 
> In ca.driving, Jack May said:
> 
> >> I've said this very same thing many times. That's why I'm buying a cheap SUV
> >> (now that prices are dropping like Lead Zeppelins), filing a PNO (Planned
> >> Non-Operation) on it, and keeping it handy in case I need to escape the basin.
> >> With millions of people all trying to flee the basin at once on the already
> >> overloaded freeways, the only way out will be over the mountains via the truck
> >> trails or via boat (and a boat is too expensive to keep if you aren't going to
> >> be using it, plus you still have to tow it to the water and launch it)
> >
> >We motorcycle guys will still beat you with lane splitting.   I love it when
> >traffic is totally stopped.  I can lane split much faster and safer in
> >stopped traffic.
> 
> Does your wife have a motorcycle, too, or does she ride on the back of yours?

This one would have her own.

> How about your infant son? Do you wrap him in swaddling clothes and dangle him
> from the handlebars? 

Backpack.  Tank-mounted cradle.  Trunk bag.  If he's big enough, a
length of seat-belt webbing strapped around both of you to keep him from
falling off.

Oh, and I hope your suitcases are nice and small...

Bikers learn to travel light, but an SUV would definitely be more
comfortable. 

-- 
Cheers,
Bev
=========================================================
"If you watch TV news, you know less about the world than 
if you just drank gin straight from the bottle."  
                                       - Garrison Keillor

John David Galt wrote:
> 
> Proprclr wrote:
> >  This brings up an interesting question: What if Los Angeles had to be
> > evacuated, how would you do it, and what would be the dangers one
> > would have to look out for? I'm thinking gangs, looters, people going
> > crazy and shooting other people, that kind of thing. And what about
> > roads? Seems freeways would be out of the question, scince everyone is trying
> > to get out at once. Off road? Maybe in the moutains, but most would still
> > have to get through the urban areas first. If the disaster didn't involve
> > earthquakes (tsunamies), wouldn't it be much safer to sail out to sea
> > if you could?
> 
> This is answered pretty well in "Lucifer's Hammer".  

I really loved the image of the surfer's long ride.  They were local
boys, you know.  They even got some of the descriptions right.

-- 
Cheers,
Bev
=========================================================
"If you watch TV news, you know less about the world than 
if you just drank gin straight from the bottle."  
                                       - Garrison Keillor

In article <40C6557F.1BE4704F@myrealbox.com>, The Real Bev
<bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:

> John David Galt wrote:
> > 
> > Proprclr wrote:
> > >  This brings up an interesting question: What if Los Angeles had to be
> > > evacuated, how would you do it, and what would be the dangers one
> > > would have to look out for? I'm thinking gangs, looters, people going
> > > crazy and shooting other people, that kind of thing. And what about
> > > roads? Seems freeways would be out of the question, scince everyone is
> > > trying
> > > to get out at once. Off road? Maybe in the moutains, but most would still
> > > have to get through the urban areas first. If the disaster didn't involve
> > > earthquakes (tsunamies), wouldn't it be much safer to sail out to sea
> > > if you could?
> > 
> > This is answered pretty well in "Lucifer's Hammer".  
> 
> I really loved the image of the surfer's long ride.  They were local
> boys, you know.  They even got some of the descriptions right.

I met Jerry Pournelle at the 1976 MidAmericon science fiction
convention in Kansas City, and then encountered him a lot more at the
Hackers Conference. 

I only met Larry Niven once, in San Jose.

But, yes, they knew preccisely the areas they described. Larry (if I
may call him that, not knowing him except casually) said the
Porterville area of the Sierra foothills--the area the ranch was in
that the Angelinos escaped to--is the family home that he and his wife
(Fuzzy, as she is called) go to. (I was scouting some foothill property
north of there, in the Oakhurst/Cathy's Valley/Bootjack area.)

Jerry and Larry are both long-time Angelinos, and they know all of the
areas they described.

--Tim May

In a cross-posted thread that at times has me laughing aloud, "Robert Cot�"
<tscn@adelph.net> offered...

> Ask about how many died in the Northridge quake due to delayed response.

OK, I'll bite. How many?

-Brian-

In article <nvvxc.6814$n65.3027@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>, Brian
Humphrey <brian.humphrey@prodigy.net> wrote:

> In a cross-posted thread that at times has me laughing aloud, "Robert Cot�"
> <tscn@adelph.net> offered...
> 
> > Ask about how many died in the Northridge quake due to delayed response.
> 
> OK, I'll bite. How many?
> 

2

The other dead were crushed in pancaked apartments, etc. 

As with the 1989 Loma Prieta quake (which I was about 7 miles from the
surface center of), where those who died pancaked under collapsed
freeways and collapsed buildings were essentially squished organs.

The earlier poster has some kind of socialist axe to grind about how
Big Government is Needed. 

--Tim May

"The Real Bev" <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:40C6520C.27FAE3CE@myrealbox.com...
> Jack May wrote:
>
> > We motorcycle guys will still beat you with lane splitting.   I love it
when
> > traffic is totally stopped.  I can lane split much faster and safer in
> > stopped traffic.
>
> Unless some shithead kid deliberately opens his door in front of you.

Never had that happen because people are usually looking ahead and are
surprised when you pass them.   Bike riders also have a lot of tricks to
handle drivers.

If someone tried to harm a biker during an emergency, other bikers would
also be lane splitting and would see it.

With no police and with some bikers that are shall we say eccentric, the
person opening the door could be wishing to die after a little while.

Jack May wrote:
> 
> "The Real Bev" <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> 
> > Jack May wrote:
> >
> > > We motorcycle guys will still beat you with lane splitting.   I love it
> > > when traffic is totally stopped.  I can lane split much faster and safer in
> > > stopped traffic.
> >
> > Unless some shithead kid deliberately opens his door in front of you.
> 
> Never had that happen because people are usually looking ahead and are
> surprised when you pass them.   Bike riders also have a lot of tricks to
> handle drivers.

It's not the drivers, it's their shithead kids in the back seat, one of
whom actually DID open the door in front of me.  I wish I could remember
whether I told the driver what he was doing when I got up next to him.
 
> If someone tried to harm a biker during an emergency, other bikers would
> also be lane splitting and would see it.

In an emergency, I believe that drivers would try to keep the bikers
from passing for the same reason that people won't open their yard sales
before the published time even if they're ready and there's already a
crowd gathered -- sheer bloody-mindedness.
 
> With no police and with some bikers that are shall we say eccentric, the
> person opening the door could be wishing to die after a little while.

Some kids are dumb.

-- 
Cheers,
Bev 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"What fresh hell is this?"     -- Dorothy Parker

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:45:35 GMT, don'tgo@there.com (The
Watcher) wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 06:31:35 GMT, "Jack May" <jack.may@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Scott in Aztl�n" <slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com> wrote in message
>>news:v4t8c091iir0nhsljraj238giliinf26lj@4ax.com...
>>> How many people are going to have the idea to cross the mountains via the
>>truck
>>> trails? How many even know that the truck trails *exist*?
>>
>>Probably all those people that actually believe the SUV commercials about
>>taking their vehicles across country when there is little chance the SUV
>>would go very far before they were broken.
>>
>>I saw a fairly new SUV at a construction site that went over a standard
>>curve to get to the street.  That small little bit of roughness made the
>>drive shaft break and drop to the ground.
>
>I'm still waiting to see a Hummer with some dirt on it. ;)
>Even here in Arkansas I've yet to see one.

These people with 4WD SUVs very seldom (if ever) drive them
off the pavement.  I really do not understand why they even
buy the things - overpriced, inefficient, comparatively poor
ride qualities, more affected by cross winds - it's a
mystery to me.  The new "sports wagons" (really just the
modern version of the station wagon) make much more sense.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Robert Sturgeon <rsturge@inreach.com> wrote in 
news:ka8dc0dda354smttovbn23d70iqpu4nga0@4ax.com:

> These people with 4WD SUVs very seldom (if ever) drive them
> off the pavement.  I really do not understand why they even
> buy the things - overpriced, inefficient, comparatively poor
> ride qualities, more affected by cross winds - it's a
> mystery to me.  The new "sports wagons" (really just the
> modern version of the station wagon) make much more sense.
> 
> 

The diesel 4x4 wagons are OKish here . 
Well , kinda , I bought mine second hand and have only had it dragging the 
caravan around Australia 4 times , now I got to replace the clutch and the 
front axel boots .I would have expected better , I paid near on $7000 for 
it , and its packing up after only 200,000 kms of holidaying ......

It still gets 800 km to 70 liters average though , not towing anything .
Them turboed 4cyls may be not the gruntiest thing around , but they cheap 
enough to run .

In misc.survivalism Scott in Aztl?n <slothkills@theyahooobvious.com> wrote:
> In ca.driving, Proprclr said:

> >> Mountain trails will instantly clog with stuck cars, broken down SUVs, 
> >> and everybody who started their escape with only 2 gallons in the tank.  

> How many people are going to have the idea to cross the mountains via the truck
> trails? How many even know that the truck trails *exist*?

In answer to both questions:  It is impossible to know.

-- 
...I'm an air-conditioned gypsy...

			- The Who

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 06:47:50 GMT, Myal <dumaree@hotmail.net>
wrote:

>Robert Sturgeon <rsturge@inreach.com> wrote in 
>news:ka8dc0dda354smttovbn23d70iqpu4nga0@4ax.com:
>
>> These people with 4WD SUVs very seldom (if ever) drive them
>> off the pavement.  I really do not understand why they even
>> buy the things - overpriced, inefficient, comparatively poor
>> ride qualities, more affected by cross winds - it's a
>> mystery to me.  The new "sports wagons" (really just the
>> modern version of the station wagon) make much more sense.
>> 
>> 
>
>The diesel 4x4 wagons are OKish here . 
>Well , kinda , I bought mine second hand and have only had it dragging the 
>caravan around Australia 4 times , now I got to replace the clutch and the 
>front axel boots .I would have expected better , I paid near on $7000 for 
>it , and its packing up after only 200,000 kms of holidaying ......

That doesn't seem too bad to me.

>It still gets 800 km to 70 liters average though , not towing anything .
>Them turboed 4cyls may be not the gruntiest thing around , but they cheap 
>enough to run .

I'm not in the market for another car (no danged money), but
if I was, I'd look at those wagons.  The ride and economy of
a mid-size car with room in the back for stuff.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

Proprclr wrote:

>  This brings up an interesting question: What if Los Angeles had to be
> evacuated, how would you do it, and what would be the dangers one
> would have to look out for? I'm thinking gangs, looters, people going
> crazy and shooting other people, that kind of thing. 

Isn't that a typical day in Los Angeles anyway?   ;-)



John

-- 
To reply, remove "die.spammers" from address


Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen.  --Beethoven

In regards to (an at times silly thread that purported to discuss) how many
people died due to "delayed response" (?) during the Northridge Earthquake

"Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> answered:

> 2

Tim, can you kindly cite a source?

> The other dead were crushed in pancaked apartments, etc.

Tim, can you offer at least one source for this as well?

> As with the 1989 Loma Prieta quake (which I was about 7 miles from the
> surface center of), where those who died pancaked under collapsed
> freeways and collapsed buildings were essentially squished organs.

Are you certain of this?


Brian

"Robert Sturgeon" <rsturge@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:ka8dc0dda354smttovbn23d70iqpu4nga0@4ax.com...
> These people with 4WD SUVs very seldom (if ever) drive them
> off the pavement.  I really do not understand why they even
> buy the things - overpriced, inefficient, comparatively poor
> ride qualities, more affected by cross winds - it's a
> mystery to me.  The new "sports wagons" (really just the
> modern version of the station wagon) make much more sense.

I would not buy one, but I think I know why the auto companies like to sell
them.   Apparently the cost of producing an SUV is about the same as a
regular car.   The SUV of course is sold for a lot more because people think
bigger should cost more.

The result is an incredible profit margin on a SUV.  I believe the quoted
figure is that the profit on a SUV is about half of the selling cost.

In article <pLMxc.5935$jw.921@attbi_s04>,
 "Jack May" <jack.may@comcast.net> wrote:

> "Robert Sturgeon" <rsturge@inreach.com> wrote in message
> news:ka8dc0dda354smttovbn23d70iqpu4nga0@4ax.com...
> > These people with 4WD SUVs very seldom (if ever) drive them
> > off the pavement.  I really do not understand why they even
> > buy the things - overpriced, inefficient, comparatively poor
> > ride qualities, more affected by cross winds - it's a
> > mystery to me.  The new "sports wagons" (really just the
> > modern version of the station wagon) make much more sense.
> 
> I would not buy one, but I think I know why the auto companies like to sell
> them.   Apparently the cost of producing an SUV is about the same as a
> regular car.   The SUV of course is sold for a lot more because people think
> bigger should cost more.
> 
> The result is an incredible profit margin on a SUV.  I believe the quoted
> figure is that the profit on a SUV is about half of the selling cost.
> 

You are thinking status SUVs like the H2.  Things like Explorers 
typically cost 20-25% less than MSRP as delivered.  Who pays MSRP?  So, 
anyway I'm going up to the cabin in Wrightwood, elev 6100 ft. on Friday 
with the three kids and wife in the V8 Explorer towing a utility trailer 
with lumber, air compressor, power washer, many gallons of paint, tools, 
work clothes, you get it.  Any suggestions for a lesser vehicle that 
covers the stated requirements?  SUVs are also popular because the 
govermen is no longer maintaining the roads properly here in Kalifornia.  
You want us to drive skinny 13 inch 60 psi ground effects low cd 
vehicles?  Fine, fix the damn roads and give us enough roads so that we 
don't need 8 cylinders just to squeeze onto the overcrowded freeways.

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 23:08:05 GMT, "Jack May"
<jack.may@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>"Robert Sturgeon" <rsturge@inreach.com> wrote in message
>news:ka8dc0dda354smttovbn23d70iqpu4nga0@4ax.com...
>> These people with 4WD SUVs very seldom (if ever) drive them
>> off the pavement.  I really do not understand why they even
>> buy the things - overpriced, inefficient, comparatively poor
>> ride qualities, more affected by cross winds - it's a
>> mystery to me.  The new "sports wagons" (really just the
>> modern version of the station wagon) make much more sense.
>
>I would not buy one, but I think I know why the auto companies like to sell
>them.

They can't sell vehicles unless people buy them.

>   Apparently the cost of producing an SUV is about the same as a
>regular car.   The SUV of course is sold for a lot more because people think
>bigger should cost more.
>
>The result is an incredible profit margin on a SUV.  I believe the quoted
>figure is that the profit on a SUV is about half of the selling cost.

I don't know about that, but so what?  I don't know of
anyone being threatened with bodily injury unless he buys an
SUV.  My daughter just bought another Ford Focus -
apparently without any coercion of any kind.  Smart kid...

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

The Watcher wrote:

> >I saw a fairly new SUV at a construction site that went over a standard
> >curve to get to the street.  That small little bit of roughness made the
> >drive shaft break and drop to the ground.
> 
> I'm still waiting to see a Hummer with some dirt on it. ;)
> Even here in Arkansas I've yet to see one.

I've seen more Hummers and H2s on the 101 near the Hollywood hills than
anywhere else.  Same for Lamborghinis, Jags, etc.  None of them has ever
had a speck of dirt on them.  Very pretty colors, too.

-- 
Cheers, Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why should I be tarred with the epithet "loony" merely 
because I have a pet halibut?           --Monty Python

Tim, I'm still waiting for an answer!

> In regards to (an at times silly thread that purported to discuss) how
many
> people died due to "delayed response" (?) during the Northridge Earthquake
>
> "Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> answered:
>
> > 2
>
> Tim, can you kindly cite a source?
>
> > The other dead were crushed in pancaked apartments, etc.
>
> Tim, can you offer at least one source for this as well?
>
> > As with the 1989 Loma Prieta quake (which I was about 7 miles from the
> > surface center of), where those who died pancaked under collapsed
> > freeways and collapsed buildings were essentially squished organs.
>
> Are you certain of this?
>
>
> Brian
>
>

In article <6gwyc.886$Pt.172@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>, Brian
Humphrey <brian.humphrey@prodigy.net> wrote:

> Tim, I'm still waiting for an answer!

Are you as much of a nitwit as you pretend to be? Read the reports on
fatalities, in the  buildings in the Valley and in Santa Monica. Google
has them, including references to the very large PDF files of reports.

In virtually all of the deaths, either the victims were dead in the
first few minutes (crushed) or died in fires, or died when rescue units
arrived as reasonably promptly as was possible, but could not extricate
trapped victims before they died. Some died in hospitals. 

A report showing such an example is at the end of my message, below.

This was the largest of the "pancake buildings" incidents, which you
express doubt about their ever happening. (I viewed the pancaked
building a short time after it happened.)

> 
> > In regards to (an at times silly thread that purported to discuss) how
> many
> > people died due to "delayed response" (?) during the Northridge Earthquake
> >
> > "Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> answered:
> >
> > > 2
> >
> > Tim, can you kindly cite a source?
> >
> > > The other dead were crushed in pancaked apartments, etc.
> >
> > Tim, can you offer at least one source for this as well?

There are many online reports about what the deaths were due to. Here's
one reporting on the pancaked apartment, which you express doubt about:

<http://www.lafd.org/eq.htm>

"Significant Incidents

 One of the most significant incidents in terms of life loss occurred
at a 3-story, 120 unit apartment complex located at 9565 Reseda
Boulevard. Task Forces 70 and 73 were first to arrive on the scene and
reported the collapse of a 3-story apartment building. The first floor
was crushed in the collapse, reduced to a crawl space of two to three
feet. Many of those that perished were buried under collapsed walls and
the ceiling.

 Ultimately involved in the rescue operation were seven L.A. City Fire
companies, an L.A. City Fire USAR team, and USAR teams from L.A.
County, Riverside County, Orange County and the State Office of
Emergency Services.

 Several residents self-evacuated prior to and shortly after the
arrival of fire companies. Twenty-five to thirty residents were
assisted out of the structure by firefighters. Eight were evacuated by
firefighters and USAR teams and then were transported to area hospitals
in conditions ranging from serious to critical.

 To further assist with locating trapped victims, L.A.P.D. search dogs
were brought in. Unfortunately, all that remained trapped had perished.

 Sixteen fatalities in all resulted from the collapse of this building.
"

In article <6gwyc.886$Pt.172@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>, Brian
Humphrey <brian.humphrey@prodigy.net> wrote:

> Tim, I'm still waiting for an answer!
> 
> > In regards to (an at times silly thread that purported to discuss) how
> many
> > people died due to "delayed response" (?) during the Northridge Earthquake
> >
> > "Tim May" <timcmay@removethis.got.net> answered:
> >
> > > 2
> >
> > Tim, can you kindly cite a source?
> >
> > > The other dead were crushed in pancaked apartments, etc.
> >
> > Tim, can you offer at least one source for this as well?
> >
> > > As with the 1989 Loma Prieta quake (which I was about 7 miles from the
> > > surface center of), where those who died pancaked under collapsed
> > > freeways and collapsed buildings were essentially squished organs.
> >
> > Are you certain of this?

Yes. About 50 people died when the Cypress structure flattened their
cars. Another dozen or so died when their cars tumbled off of collapsed
sections of bridges.

Half a dozen died here in Santa Cruz when masonry walls collapsed on
them.

Your strange axe to grind about how what "really" killed these people
was "slow emergency response" is just silly. 

There's not a lot to be done quickly when a thousand tons of concrete
has collapsed most cars down to 10 inches in overall height. Even in
"pockets" where the collapse was not so close to the surface below,
very few of those injured could be reached. After a day or two, the
moans stopped.

At night, the ice weasels came.

--Tim May

"Jack May" <jack.may@comcast.net> writes:

>"Scott in Aztl�n" wrote:
>> That's why I'm buying a cheap SUV

>We motorcycle guys will still beat you with lane splitting.

You really want to get out without serious impediments, buy an ultra-
light aircraft, learn to fly it, and keep it nearby. No license required
and can probably get off the ground while still on your driveway. That
would not be legal, of course, but in an emergency... Some can carry a
passenger, but then I think you need a license. You wouldn't be taking
much baggage but you'd almost certainly get out. Maybe someone makes
one small or foldable enough to keep in the UAV all the time; that would
make good use of all that normally wasted space.
-- 
       Dave Close, Compata, Costa Mesa CA       +1 714 434 7359
       dave@compata.com              dhclose@alumni.caltech.edu
       "Political campaigns are the graveyard of real ideas and
       the birthplace of empty promises." -- Teresa Heinz Kerry

In a clearly forward yet civilized manner, I asked "Tim May"
<timcmay@removethis.got.net> to explain and footnote his very public
assertion that deaths in the 1994 Northridge earthquake were directly
attributable to  "DELAYED RESPONSE" (emphasis added).

Deafened by Tim's silence, I posted:

> Tim, I'm still waiting for an answer!

To which Tim acerbicly replied:

> Are you as much of a nitwit as you pretend to be? Read the reports on
> fatalities, in the  buildings in the Valley and in Santa Monica. Google
> has them, including references to the very large PDF files of reports.

Hmmm. I guess it really isn't clear to you why I don't feel a pressing need
to do a Google search to find what you purport to be facts.

Yet still in apparent reference to the Northridge event, you authoritatively
carried on....

> In virtually all of the deaths, either the victims were dead in the
> first few minutes (crushed) or died in fires, or died when rescue units
> arrived as reasonably promptly as was possible, but could not extricate
> trapped victims before they died. Some died in hospitals.

I find this to be a poor rationale of your earlier and very public assertion
regarding "delayed response" being a factor. I really have to wonder if you
understand the term "delayed response".

> A report showing such an example is at the end of my message, below.

> http://www.lafd.org/eq.htm

Hmmm. It looks just *vaguely* familiar.

Here's the $100.00 question Mr. May: Can you guess what "nitwit" wrote that
report?

Is the picture becoming any clearer?

Furthermore, can you find the word "delayed response" anywhere in that or
other official documents?

I didn't think so.

> This was the largest of the "pancake buildings" incidents, which you
> express doubt about their ever happening.

Mr. May, nowhere and at no time have I expressed such doubt. Please take a
breath and relax.

> (I viewed the pancaked
> building a short time after it happened.)

Amazing. we probably rubbed elbows. You as you were arriving hours after the
fact to mingle among the countless spectators, me leaving after hours of
working in and near the wreckage. But hey, what do I know?

Mr. May, you are welcome to say what you will to me - and to do so in as
caustic a manner as you please. I will not however, sit idly by while you
attempt to rewrite history by alleging that a death, any death at all in the
1994 Northridge earthquake is directly or indirectly attributable to
"delayed response".

Brian Humphrey
Firefighter/Paramedic
Public Information Officer
Los Angeles Fire Department

E-Mail: beh9593@lafd.lacity.org
LAFD Website: http://www.lafd.org

Dave Close wrote:
> You really want to get out without serious impediments, buy an ultra-
> light aircraft, learn to fly it, and keep it nearby. No license required
> and can probably get off the ground while still on your driveway. That
> would not be legal, of course, but in an emergency... Some can carry a
> passenger, but then I think you need a license. You wouldn't be taking
> much baggage but you'd almost certainly get out. Maybe someone makes
> one small or foldable enough to keep in the UAV all the time; that would
> make good use of all that normally wasted space.

You need a license, even without a passenger, and you would probably need
at least 500 feet of empty, undamaged street to take off in.  Still, if
it's only an emergency evacuation measure, you may not care about the
license requirement.  ISTR that the doofus who flew a lawn chair and a
bunch of weather balloons in the Los Angeles area got off with a fine of
$30,000.

[referring to the Cypress structure collapse, even though that wasn't
the original subject of this thread]
> There's not a lot to be done quickly when a thousand tons of concrete
> has collapsed most cars down to 10 inches in overall height. Even in
> "pockets" where the collapse was not so close to the surface below,
> very few of those injured could be reached. After a day or two, the
> moans stopped.

Actually, the TV pictures showed that most were only squeezed down to
about the bottom of the windows.  ISTR that at least 75 people were
pulled alive from the wreckage, many by neighboring residents who went
out there with ladders and went straight to work, well before any
official responders got there.

Tim May <timcmay@removethis.got.net> wrote in message news:<120620041339055807%timcmay@removethis.got.net>...
[Concrete pancakes] 
> At night, the ice weasels came.

Isn't it usually warmer than that in California?  Have ice weasels
migrated South as some bizarre consequence of global warming?


Regards,

Steve

(bored}

In article <caj01i$h9t$1@blue.rahul.net>, jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us 
says...
> Dave Close wrote:
> You need a license, even without a passenger, and you would probably need
> at least 500 feet of empty, undamaged street to take off in.  Still, if
> it's only an emergency evacuation measure, you may not care about the
> license requirement.  ISTR that the doofus who flew a lawn chair and a
> bunch of weather balloons in the Los Angeles area got off with a fine of
> $30,000.
> 
> 
What about these pocketcycles - that ones that safety nazis will be 
banning in a few weeks - the small cheap motorcycles that cost $200 
($600 after the are banned).

Even on a normal day I can outpace traffic on a human powered bike, and 
there are plenty of alternative route for a narrow vehicles (allys, 
lawns, thru lobbies, etc) in the event that social order as collasped.

A full sized mt bike with a small gas motor would probably be as quick 
as an ultralight, and less prone to weather ground or being taken out by 
anti-aircraft fire from the gangstas (who would shoot at an ultralight 
just because its different and THERE)... plus the law enforcement might 
decide to take a shoot first and ask questions later about ultralights 
during a state of emergency. 

"Scott in Aztl�n" <slothkills@THEyahooOBVIOUS.com> wrote in message
news:liucc09vi47l0bnesjhv66s9nguolnlp5c@4ax.com...
> In ca.driving, The Real Bev said:
>
> >I really loved the image of the surfer's long ride.  They were local
> >boys, you know.  They even got some of the descriptions right.
>
> AFAIK, Pournelle still lives in LA.

http://www.jerrypournelle.com

In article <caj08s$hc6$1@blue.rahul.net>,
 John David Galt <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:

> [referring to the Cypress structure collapse, even though that wasn't
> the original subject of this thread]
> > There's not a lot to be done quickly when a thousand tons of concrete
> > has collapsed most cars down to 10 inches in overall height. Even in
> > "pockets" where the collapse was not so close to the surface below,
> > very few of those injured could be reached. After a day or two, the
> > moans stopped.
> 
> Actually, the TV pictures showed that most were only squeezed down to
> about the bottom of the windows.  ISTR that at least 75 people were
> pulled alive from the wreckage, many by neighboring residents who went
> out there with ladders and went straight to work, well before any
> official responders got there.
> 

IIRC, after the "official heroes' arrived they stopped all rescue 
efforts and no one else was rescued alive.

-- 
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

In article <nhull-897269.20012515062004@corp.supernews.com>, 
nhull@access4less.net says...
> In article <caj08s$hc6$1@blue.rahul.net>,
> > Actually, the TV pictures showed that most were only squeezed down to
> > about the bottom of the windows.  ISTR that at least 75 people were
> > pulled alive from the wreckage, many by neighboring residents who went
> > out there with ladders and went straight to work, well before any
> > official responders got there.
> > 
> 
> IIRC, after the "official heroes' arrived they stopped all rescue 
> efforts and no one else was rescued alive.
> 
> 
If the concerned local citizens had been injuried or killed trying to 
rscue fellow citizens the city and state would have been liable. Public 
safety workers have a duty to protect the state.

Also private citizen have no business doing work that is reservered for 
union workers. Better dead then rescued by a scab.