🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <A0b19ap5@oski.toppoint.de>, schlut@oski.toppoint.de (Olaf Schlueter) writes:
> mathon@tss.com (John D. Mathon (593-0923)) writes:
> 
> >In article <A0b0w2cr@oski.toppoint.de>, schlut@oski.toppoint.de (Olaf Schlueter) writes:
> >Since the American system is the most democratic system on earth and you
> >believe it is fascist, then this says a lot about your faith in democracy.
> 
> No, read my statement again then.  It's an if ...  then sentence.  If
> the USA government sees itself as a partner which contributes to an
> alliance of democratic nations with its military and economic strength,
> but accepts that decisions how to use that power are made up by
> discussion and voting among equal allies, that's ok.  Even a leading
> role is acceptable and fine if that means a leading role in making
> suggestions.

I accept your point.

> What the United States has done in Europe during the fourties and
> the fifties, is still acknowledged by me as by every other german,
> despite the fact that some of us critizise the actual US politics.
> But your historic memory needs a fresh up. We wrote our constitution.
> And it's quite different from the presidial system used in the USA.
> Our chancellor is by far not that strong as the US president. If it
> is better or worse, shall not bother us here. I prefer the german
> system, but that's a matter of taste.

I agree 100%.

> >> Democratic leadership means discussing a problem
> >> and then collecting the votes, which establish the decision.  US
> >> leadership means discussing a problem, collecting oppinions and then
> >> decide alone. The US diplomacy used the democratic way to get UN support,
> >> but the "american way" to get turkish support.
> 
> >Democracy means that discussion takes place, and then a vote is called 
> >and when the vote is finished everybody agrees to abide by the decisions
> >and the leaders execute those views.
> 
> >If Britain and France and Turkey and Italy agree to sending troops to
> >the Persian Gulf, and Germany does not and in fact resists supporting
> >their allies, then that is as if Texas decided not to send men to the
> >front line.  If Germany does not stand with its allies and "fellow
> >states" then it stands against them, because this is a matter of life 
> >and death.  You should think about this.  
> 
> You are critizising a statement I did not make. We talking about
> the decision to use turkish air bases against Iraq. 

I am saying that Turkey, Britain, France, Italy, etc... have decided
to stand solidly behind their ally, the US and for the freeing of the
people of Kuwait.  They gave Saddam hussein SIX MONTHS TO BUILD HIS
KILLING ZONES, SIX MONTHS TO KILL THOUSANDS OF KUWAITIS AND SIX MONTHS
TO STEAL EVERYHTING IN KUWAIT AND SIX MONTHS TO RAPE EVERY WOMAN IN
KUWAIT.

TO BE FRANK.  I THINK SIX MONTHS WAS ADEQUATE TIME FOR MR HUSSEIN TO
GET THE IDEA.  HE IS OBVIOUSLY A VERY DUNB PERSON, BUT SIX MONTHS IS
ADEQUATE LEARNING TIME.  HE DIDN'T GET THE IDEA, HE DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO
UNDERSTAND.

I am proud that the good guys are defending themselves and that the bad 
guys are getting the idea that the good guys can defend themselves.
Hopefully, this will dissuade further activities of this type in the
future.  If it does, think of all the lives saved, then.  

Nobody in America is happy about having to kill the Iraqis.  I have no
idea how many have died, figures range from 1,000 by the Iraqis themselves 
to 200,000 by the Iranians to 300,000 by leftists in the US.  I know
that thousdands of innocent Kuwaitis have been killed and raped.  I
know that the way this happened was completely contrary to every moral
precept that a civil society has to have.  I know that a man of this
type who acts with such hatred to the people he conquers is not
acceptable in a modern world.

The cost to eliminate Hussein to the Iraqi people is probably near the
100,000 figure.  I don't know for sure, but, my opinion is that the Iraqis
should be very very happy indeed, because they lost 500,000 fighting Iran.
They have gotten to a ceasefire with FAR less casualties than they did 
with Iran.  They should be extremely grateful to us.  I think they will.
I think that within months it will be clear that many Iraqis agree with
the US.  Saddam had to go and the US was right, Iraq has no right to
be in Kuwait and kill Kuwaitis and rape them.  They will be embarrassed
by their conduct and like the Germans and the Italians in WWII, hopefully,
Iraq will come out of this as a more peaceful country, one that disdains
war and dictatorship.

I know it sounds idealistic, but, Iraq has to face reality.  All that
was said by Saddam was lies.  He tortured his people and in 10 years
brought nothing but massive suffering and death to his people and 
enmity from all his neighbors.  The Iraqi people were able to hide 
this after the Iran/Iraq war because of massive support by their
neighbors including Kuwait which lent them 88 billion dollars.  This
time, Iraq will not be able to turn to anybody.  Saddam will not 
be able to direct attention on a new front.  The evidence is too plain
and there are no alternatives.  He literally has no alternatives.

The situation is fundamentally vastly different.  In the past Iraq and
the belligerants in that region could view reality distorted because the
US did not act in the region.  They would blow up americans and think it
was a joke.  They would fight each other and oil revenue would repair it
within months.  They could prosper in spite of massively mistaken
policies and ideologies.  Today, at least for Iraq and Jordan and Syria
these maskings are not there.  Today, the moderates have won decisively
and the radicals have been destroyed and they will not get succor to 
restore themselves.  The radicals are DOWN and most likely seriously OUT
of power in the region.

This is an incredibly positive thing.  In Europe prior to WWII many nations
in Europe were dictator type countries with atrocious killing and war
and threats going on.  WWII destroyed the radicals power base and the US 
and Britain and the allies in general were able to institute power systems
to keep moderates in power throughout the postwar period.

The key to peace and freedom in the region is the restoration of 
moderate governments and the destruction of the resources and power of
the radicals.  The radicals have been dealt a fantastic blow.  This
MUST put the moderates in a much more powerful position in the Arab
countries and it will have positive reprecussions for decades.

Americans can feel proud for what we have done.  It has been a devastating
blow to evil and to warlike government and to dictators around the 
world.  The old guard in the USSR is reeling.  One by one these 
bastards are falling.  The US can feel proud to be at the forefront of
restoring a civil society in the world.  Our soldiers acted as 
professional as any in history.  We should all be amazed at their
efficiency and professionalism and courage.  This is again another
powerful example of how america is the true leader of the free world.

People who have been trying to question our motives and actions will 
soon look like fools as the US helps in the rebuilding of the region
and our friends in the region become closer and more democratic.  The
US will be strengthened by this action.  Civil society will be
strengthened and dictators around the world are questioning the value
of every weapon they bought and how to extricate themselves from
certain defeat.

The real question is whether the USSR which is currently in a collapsing
and radicalizing mode will try to revert to a beligerent nation in the
world as a smaller power?  If it tries to revert back to cold war
logic and government it will be doing so without Iraq, without significant
resources and without the eastern bloc.  This new phase will last
shorter than the last 45 years.  Hopefully, the old guard in the USSR
rethinks and embraces reform again.  If it doesn't and I am not extremely
hopeful, we face some more time of cold war.