🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <7AUG199211560533@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>
> In article <22127@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Dr. Yigal Arens) writes...
>
> Dr. Yigal Arens writes:
>
> >Excuse me, Ms. Rivkis, but does the US OFFICIALLY SANCTION torture as an
> >investigative technique?  That alone would appear to place Israel in a
> >different category.
>
> Dr. Arens seems to agree [from the context of the posting as well 
> as the "officially sanction"] that the US engages - presumably 
> when necessary [We are not talking about sadists, I presume.  One
> can never tell with Dr. Arens and Israel; perhaps he means to say
> that Israel has more sadists than other countries?  But Dr. Arens
> is usually able to state what he wants for himself.] - in covert 
> torture.  Yes, that the US engages in covert torture.
>
> His complaint is then that, unlike the covert torture of the US,
> Israel is open about its use of torture.  Is this an accusation
> of culpability?  Should Israel be covert?  Or is this an 
> accusation of cupidity?  Should Israel not try to "seem" honest
> about what it does?

I can only try to imagine why Mr. Werman is not able to figure out the
*true* reason I brought up the issue of official sanction.  For the
record, what my point was:

If torture is illegal -- even if some government individuals or agencies
ignore this prohibition at times -- it is possible to legally fight it,
to punish individuals who engage in torture, and possibly to end it.

A country that officially sanctions torture precludes such methods from
being used in fighting torture's continued use.  In fact, since it does
not even express nominal opposition to torture, one could expect its use
to be much more widespread.

In this context, it might be significant to mention that the Israeli
Landau Commission, which investigated the use of torture by the Israeli
secret service, found that it was (and SHOULD BE!) a routinely used
investigative tool, also in cases involving no terrorism, not any
violence at all.  Quotes upon request.  And here we see another
difference between Israel and the US in this regard, a difference which
Mr. Werman (and others here) are quite cynically trying to ignore, or
obscure:  In Israel torture is used ROUTINELY by the SHABAK.  I defy
anyone to demonstrate that the FBI, America's equivalent of the SHABAK,
makes routine use of torture.  Put up or shut up, Mr. Werman.

> As a matter of fact, an Israeli high court decision allowed the
> use of "reasonable force" in interrogation of security prisoners.
> I think one would have to go a long way to convert "reasonable
> force" into torture.

The way is only lengthened by the fact that the Landau Commission (it
was not a Supreme Court decision, Mr. Werman) chose to classify as
SECRET the appendix to its report wherein were specified the permitted
forms of physical torture.  Now why would they do that?  I'll tell you
why: to allow people like Mr. Werman to obfuscate the issue, that's why.
Obviously, the prisoners involved find out only too well what is
permitted -- and anyone interested can ask them.  Reports of Israeli
torture, reports that make clear what is officially permitted, have
already been posted here numerous times.  But Mr. Werman and the usual
host of Israeli apologists can continue to hide behind the classified
list and claim that the victims are exaggerating, lying, and in general
cannot be trusted.  Of course, before the Landau commission, the same
arguments were made by people like Mr. Werman to back up the official
position that no physical coercion was used AT ALL.  Then, Palestinians
were just inventing the whole thing from start to finish.  The Landau
Commission found that torture WAS, in fact, used.  So today, Mr. Werman
only needs to claim that Palestinians are exaggerating its use and
severity.  How nice.

> Perhaps Israel is singular.  I am one of those who would like
> Israel to be singular.  Most of my countrymen prefer that 
> Israel be like any other country.

Mr. Werman's desire for Israeli singularity borders on the insane, if
even the singularity of officially permitting torture of detainees is
welcomed by him.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21

In article <22152@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Dr. Yigal Arens) writes...

>         In Israel torture is used ROUTINELY by the SHABAK.  I defy
>anyone to demonstrate that the FBI, America's equivalent of the SHABAK,
>makes routine use of torture.  Put up or shut up, Mr. Werman.

>The way is only lengthened by the fact that the Landau Commission (it
>was not a Supreme Court decision, Mr. Werman) chose to classify as
>SECRET the appendix to its report wherein were specified the permitted
>forms of physical torture.  

********************

I do not know what the FBI does.  Routinely or not.  I was once
quizzed by two very square FBI agents about a friend of mine, no
longer living, who was a member of the Communist Party between 
the ages of 17 and 20.  Since he was a well known physicist, there
might well have been good reason to investigate his background.
What interested the FBI agents was the psychological cause of his
"deviant" behavior.  They insisted that I tell them it was because
his father had died before he was 17.  I tried to go for "a youthful
indiscretion," but they would have none of this.  Not too satisfactory.

That is the extent of my personal knowledge of FBI tactics; they 
certainly did not torture me.  I have even less knowledge of Shabak
techniques.

But Dr. Arens always knows things no one else does; I understand his
doctorate is in Information Sciences.  That probably explains why it
is possible for him to know what goes on - even the routine use of
torture [not confirmed by the Landau report, btw] - even when the 
Landau report that describes the use of reasonable force is "SECRET" 
[his word].


__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem

In article <22152@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Dr. Yigal Arens) writes...

>The way is only lengthened by the fact that the Landau Commission (it
>was not a Supreme Court decision, Mr. Werman) chose to classify as
>SECRET the appendix to its report wherein were specified the permitted
>forms of physical torture.  Now why would they do that?  I'll tell you
>why: to allow people like Mr. Werman to obfuscate the issue, that's why.


******************

In my most self delusive moments I like to think of myself as 
having some importance in the framework of the world.  But I
never would go as far as Dr. Arens who seems to think that the
Landau Commision had me or people like me in mind when they 
decided to make secret the appendix of their report.  To provide
me with tools "to obfuscate the issue," no less?!  Imagine that.

Thanks for the vote of importance, Dr. Arens.


__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem

Dr. Yigal Arens, arens@ISI.EDU, in message <22164@venera.isi.edu>, writes:


>And please stop trying to redirect my response to some obscure
>newsgroup.  If you want to move the discussion somewhere else, start by
>posting your reply there.  I realize that will not get you "the last
>word" in TPM, but at least it's the honest way to do it.

**********************


I posted to three newsgroups, as far as I know, talk.politics.mideast,
misc.headlines, and talk.politics.misc.  Which of these is obscure?

In fact I used the reply function and my poster did not recognize some
of the groups, alt.activism, I think one of them was, used in Dr. Arens'
post.

What is going on here?

If I were Dr. Arens, who is well versed in ad hominem arguments, and
reverts to them whenever he begins to flail about in deep waters, I
might have a ready answer.

Instead I will try to find Dr. Arens' post - to which I responded - 
and see where HE posted.

And here it is, from his heading:

>From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
>Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,
>            alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
>Subject: Re: More Israel torture (as interrogation technique) discussion
>Message-ID: <22127@venera.isi.edu>
>Date: 5 Aug 92 03:40:29 GMT
>References: <1992Aug4.042929.1433@ddsw1.mcs.com>
>	<1992Aug4.125315.15193@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com>
>	<1992Aug4.205535.6397@ddsw1.mcs.com>
>	<1992Aug4.231541.18630@midway.uchicago.edu>

*************

My memory is not perfect; it was not alt.activism, it was alt.conspiracy,
and alt.censorship.  I assume Dr. Arens is correct in calling them obscure.
I also assume he did not notice that he was replying to a posting that was
already cross posted.

So, echoing Dr. Arens, please do not accuse me of errors for which I bear
no responsibility.  And please do not suggest that I am not honest in my
behavior.



__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem

In article <11AUG199216234510@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>
> Dr. Yigal Arens, arens@ISI.EDU, in message <22164@venera.isi.edu>, writes:
>
> >And please stop trying to redirect my response to some obscure
> >newsgroup.  If you want to move the discussion somewhere else, start by
> >posting your reply there.  I realize that will not get you "the last
> >word" in TPM, but at least it's the honest way to do it.
>
> I posted to three newsgroups, as far as I know, talk.politics.mideast,
> misc.headlines, and talk.politics.misc.  Which of these is obscure?
>
> In fact I used the reply function and my poster did not recognize some
> of the groups, alt.activism, I think one of them was, used in Dr. Arens'
> post.

Yes, you POSTED to the groups you mention, but your recent posts
(including the one I'm responding to now!) have had their "Followup-To"
set to misc.headlines.  Anyone can check this for themselves.

> What is going on here?

That's what I asked.

> If I were Dr. Arens, who is well versed in ad hominem arguments, and
> reverts to them whenever he begins to flail about in deep waters, I
> might have a ready answer.

It's good to see that you have your own repertoire of ad hominem
arguments at your disposal.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21

In article <22152@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <7AUG199211560533@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>>
>> In article <22127@venera.isi.edu>, arens@ISI.EDU (Dr. Yigal Arens) writes...
>>
>> Dr. Yigal Arens writes:
>>
>> >Excuse me, Ms. Rivkis, but does the US OFFICIALLY SANCTION torture as an
>> >investigative technique?  That alone would appear to place Israel in a
>> >different category.
>>
>> Dr. Arens seems to agree [from the context of the posting as well
>> as the "officially sanction"] that the US engages - presumably
>> when necessary [We are not talking about sadists, I presume.  One
>> can never tell with Dr. Arens and Israel; perhaps he means to say
>> that Israel has more sadists than other countries?  But Dr. Arens
>> is usually able to state what he wants for himself.] - in covert
>> torture.  Yes, that the US engages in covert torture.
>>
>> His complaint is then that, unlike the covert torture of the US,
>> Israel is open about its use of torture.  Is this an accusation
>> of culpability?  Should Israel be covert?  Or is this an
>> accusation of cupidity?  Should Israel not try to "seem" honest
>> about what it does?
>
>I can only try to imagine why Mr. Werman is not able to figure out the
>*true* reason I brought up the issue of official sanction.  For the
>record, what my point was:
>
>If torture is illegal -- even if some government individuals or agencies
>ignore this prohibition at times -- it is possible to legally fight it,
>to punish individuals who engage in torture, and possibly to end it.
>
>A country that officially sanctions torture precludes such methods from
>being used in fighting torture's continued use.  In fact, since it does
>not even express nominal opposition to torture, one could expect its use
>to be much more widespread.
>
>In this context, it might be significant to mention that the Israeli
>Landau Commission, which investigated the use of torture by the Israeli
>secret service, found that it was (and SHOULD BE!) a routinely used
>investigative tool, also in cases involving no terrorism, not any
>violence at all.  Quotes upon request.  And here we see another
>difference between Israel and the US in this regard, a difference which
>Mr. Werman (and others here) are quite cynically trying to ignore, or
>obscure:  In Israel torture is used ROUTINELY by the SHABAK.  I defy
>anyone to demonstrate that the FBI, America's equivalent of the SHABAK,
>makes routine use of torture.  Put up or shut up, Mr. Werman.

Since Doc Yigal has always been a stickler as far as titles are
concerned I would think it appropriate for Yigal to refer to Bob
Werman as Prof. Werman, certainly not Mr.

>
>> As a matter of fact, an Israeli high court decision allowed the
>> use of "reasonable force" in interrogation of security prisoners.
>> I think one would have to go a long way to convert "reasonable
>> force" into torture.
>
>The way is only lengthened by the fact that the Landau Commission (it
>was not a Supreme Court decision, Mr. Werman) chose to classify as
>SECRET the appendix to its report wherein were specified the permitted
>forms of physical torture.  Now why would they do that?  I'll tell you
>why: to allow people like Mr. Werman to obfuscate the issue, that's why.
>Obviously, the prisoners involved find out only too well what is
>permitted -- and anyone interested can ask them.  Reports of Israeli
>torture, reports that make clear what is officially permitted, have
>already been posted here numerous times.  But Mr. Werman and the usual
>host of Israeli apologists can continue to hide behind the classified
>list and claim that the victims are exaggerating, lying, and in general
>cannot be trusted.  Of course, before the Landau commission, the same
>arguments were made by people like Mr. Werman to back up the official
>position that no physical coercion was used AT ALL.  Then, Palestinians
>were just inventing the whole thing from start to finish.  The Landau
>Commission found that torture WAS, in fact, used.  So today, Mr. Werman
>only needs to claim that Palestinians are exaggerating its use and
>severity.  How nice.
>
>> Perhaps Israel is singular.  I am one of those who would like
>> Israel to be singular.  Most of my countrymen prefer that
>> Israel be like any other country.
>
>Mr. Werman's desire for Israeli singularity borders on the insane, if
>even the singularity of officially permitting torture of detainees is
>welcomed by him.

Though I have been away from the net for a long time I see that Yigal
is still filling t.p.m. with his garbage and hatred.  I hope that the
new netters have learned to ignore him just as most of us did months
ago.

>--
>Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
>USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
>arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
>               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21


Yitzy
--

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