🚀 go-pugleaf

Dear 3133+ DAwn:

Its impossible to get terminated, they provide unlimited, or 
at least advertise unlimited use of your account. If they do
terminate your account, you can take their sorry ass to court.

--Jonathan
jonathan@dal.net

On 25 Aug 1996, DAwn G. wrote:

> 
> DAwn Writes----->>>
> 
> 
>  Has anyone been (or know someone who has been) terminated or
>  warned by Netcom for using "excessive time" on an "unlimited"
>  account?  (Or for using a shell account?)
> 
>  If yes, please e-mail me.  Many thanks.
> 
> 
> -----DAwn McGatney
>           mcgatney@access.digex.net
> 
>     
> 
> 
> 
> 

Jonathan M. Bobin (jmbobin@escape.com) wrote:
: Its impossible to get terminated, they provide unlimited, or 
: at least advertise unlimited use of your account. If they do
: terminate your account, you can take their sorry ass to court.

From Netcom's T&C:

	NETCOM may terminate any account, without cause or notification to
	the Subscriber, at any time.

Sounds pretty clear to me.

A business cannot be compelled to do business with you, so long as their
basis for refusing service is not due to race, religion, physical
disability, etc..

-- 
Paul Theodoropoulos      admin@wco.com
Vice President
West Coast Online, Inc.

		The Nicest Guy on the Internet

In article <Pine.BSI.3.91.960825104326.18836A-100000@escape.com> "Jonathan M. Bobin" <jmbobin@escape.com> writes:
>Dear 3133+ DAwn:
>
>Its impossible to get terminated, they provide unlimited, or 
>at least advertise unlimited use of your account. If they do
>terminate your account, you can take their sorry ass to court.
>

Bullshit!

Netcom sets the policy and Netcom does infact have a policy that will
lead to a termination of the account should you be running a tool or
script that keeps your connection active while you are not actively
using the Netcom service.  That is while you are sleeping or shopping or
eating dinner or whatever..... Anytime you are not sitting at your
computer keyboard then you are expected to log off.
By unlimited use, Netcom has defined this as active keyboard involvement
with you sitting in front of your keyboard and actively inputting
keystrokes from time to time.......

--
Ciao!
	John S. 8^{)>
	teddybur@netcom.com
__

paul@wco.com (0000-Admin(0000)) wrote:

>Jonathan M. Bobin (jmbobin@escape.com) wrote:
>: Its impossible to get terminated, they provide unlimited, or 

>A business cannot be compelled to do business with you, so long as their
>basis for refusing service is not due to race, religion, physical
>disability, etc..

True, but I think the original question was whether they, in fact,
terminate accounts for no reason other than doing what they advertise you
can do (use the account without looking at the clock).

I don't think they do, but I realize there are differences between
"non-metered" and "dedicated" connections.

teddybur@netcom.com (John Sanger) wrote:

>Netcom sets the policy and Netcom does infact have a policy that will
>lead to a termination of the account should you be running a tool or
>script that keeps your connection active while you are not actively
>using the Netcom service.  That is while you are sleeping or shopping or

Will they terminate you if you sit in an irc channel just lurking for
5 hours?

detalia@juno.com wrote:

>teddybur@netcom.com (John Sanger) wrote:

>>Netcom sets the policy and Netcom does infact have a policy that will
>>lead to a termination of the account should you be running a tool or
>>script that keeps your connection active while you are not actively
>>using the Netcom service.  That is while you are sleeping or shopping or

>Will they terminate you if you sit in an irc channel just lurking for
>5 hours?

I certainly hope so.  I hate people who do that!

DAwn G.     (hv) (mcgatney@access.digex.net) wrote:

: DAwn Writes----->>>


:  Has anyone been (or know someone who has been) terminated or
:  warned by Netcom for using "excessive time" on an "unlimited"
:  account?  (Or for using a shell account?)

:  If yes, please e-mail me.  Many thanks.


: -----DAwn McGatney
:           mcgatney@access.digex.net

:     


I am sure that you will only be terminated for "abuse" of the unlimited 
service. In other words, if you stay on for hours and hours, without 
actually being at the computer doing something. If you are using a 
program that just keeps the line open by sending a signal every few 
minutes, that is abuse and you SHOULD be terminated. Unlimited service is 
NOT a dedicated, full-time connection.

I spend lots of time on Netcom and have NEVER been warned about using it 
improperly. If I leave the computer I disconnect. And you should too.
-- 
***********************************************************************
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*    Get a link from our web page to yours - details on the site.     *
*            See what you are missing. Call a BBS today!              *
***********************************************************************

detalia@juno.com wrote:
: teddybur@netcom.com (John Sanger) wrote:

: >Netcom sets the policy and Netcom does infact have a policy that will
: >lead to a termination of the account should you be running a tool or
: >script that keeps your connection active while you are not actively
: >using the Netcom service.  That is while you are sleeping or shopping or

: Will they terminate you if you sit in an irc channel just lurking for
: 5 hours?

On shell accounts you must do "something" within every ten minutes or so. 
If you just sit there you will be disconnected (as will most providers). 
So if you are sitting there "lurking" in IRC you must do something regularly.
-- 
***********************************************************************
*                                                                     *
* Looking for a BBS or an Internet Service Provider? Look no further! *
*   http://www.vni.net/thedirectory  -  largest directory on the web  *
*    over 47,000 listings - over 4,900 different Internet Providers   *
*    "The BBS Corner"  -  search engine  -  over 800 telnet BBSes     *
*    Get a link from our web page to yours - details on the site.     *
*            See what you are missing. Call a BBS today!              *
***********************************************************************

nwdirect@netcom.com (thedirectory of BBSes and Internet
Access Providers) wrote:


:]On shell accounts you must do "something" within every ten minutes or so. 
:]If you just sit there you will be disconnected (as will most providers). 
:]So if you are sitting there "lurking" in IRC you must do something regularly.

This is also true of the NetCruiser accounts.

Those who are 'holding' a connection must be active, or
using a 'keep alive' utility.

I'm not sure what the timer is set for, as I've never really
worried about it.  However, it does get me sometimes when I
forget and attempt to compose a lengthy response on-line.

			Regards,

			Jesse

teddybur@netcom.com (John Sanger) wrote:

>By unlimited use, Netcom has defined this as active keyboard involvement
>with you sitting in front of your keyboard and actively inputting
>keystrokes from time to time.......

Oh, my! How unreasonable...

detalia@juno.com wrote:

>Will they terminate you if you sit in an irc channel just lurking for
>5 hours?

They can, dunno if they will. Folks in IRC don't appreciate lurkers, btw.
If the op discovers you, you'll likely get booted.

Jonathan M. Bobin <jmbobin@escape.com> wrote in article
<Pine.BSI.3.91.960825104326.18836A-100000@escape.com>...
> Dear 3133+ DAwn:
> 
> Its impossible to get terminated, they provide unlimited, or 
> at least advertise unlimited use of your account. If they do
> terminate your account, you can take their sorry ass to court.
> 
> --Jonathan
> jonathan@dal.net
> 
> On 25 Aug 1996, DAwn G. wrote:
> 
> > 
> > DAwn Writes----->>>
> > 
> > 
> >  Has anyone been (or know someone who has been) terminated or
> >  warned by Netcom for using "excessive time" on an "unlimited"
> >  account?  (Or for using a shell account?)
> > 
> >  If yes, please e-mail me.  Many thanks.
> > 
> > 
> > -----DAwn McGatney
> >           mcgatney@access.digex.net


Could it be possible that ISPs define "unlimited access" as:
	1.  An account ALWAYS billed on a flat-rate monthly charge (no per-hour
fees), and/or
	2.  No restrictions as to what times of the day you can connect without
being charged extra?

I've encountered many ISPs who find that their users are leaving dialup
connections active for days and even weeks on end.    I personally feel
that a dialup connection is not the same as a "dedicated connection" (which
most ISPs offer as well).  I can understand why ISPs might take action
against users who leave their connections active (thanks to ping programs)
constantly.   Is it fair to the other subscribers who might be trying to
dial in?   Do certain users have the right to tie up an access number for
days and days and should they be able to do this for only $20.00/month?

Often, people say that they can never seem to connect to their provider
because of excessive "busies."    We might consider that this is
attributable not always to an insufficient number of dial-in lines, but
also to the abuse of dialup connections.   Everyone has a right to be on as
much as they NEED to be.   Is it really necessary though to leave a dialup
connection active while away from home while you're not really *doing
anything* ?   I always thought that is what people needed "dedicated
connections" for.   

Just my two cents,
Michelle

trebor@sirius.com wrote:

>detalia@juno.com wrote:

>>Will they terminate you if you sit in an irc channel just lurking for
>>5 hours?

>They can, dunno if they will. Folks in IRC don't appreciate lurkers, btw.
>If the op discovers you, you'll likely get booted.

Totally depends on the channel.  There's no "end all be all" etiquette
for that.

Jesse James (jfjames@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: nwdirect@netcom.com (thedirectory of BBSes and Internet
: Access Providers) wrote:


: :]On shell accounts you must do "something" within every ten minutes or so. 
: :]If you just sit there you will be disconnected (as will most providers). 
: :]So if you are sitting there "lurking" in IRC you must do something regularly.

: This is also true of the NetCruiser accounts.

: Those who are 'holding' a connection must be active, or
: using a 'keep alive' utility.

: I'm not sure what the timer is set for, as I've never really
: worried about it.  However, it does get me sometimes when I
: forget and attempt to compose a lengthy response on-line.

Odd, because I remember once I forgot to log off while using someone's
Netcruiser account, and when I went back _hours_ later, though my shell
telnet had been kicked out, the Netcruiser was still active. I have
not changed any settings on it as far as I can remember (Netlooser software).
Where might these settings be? I'd like to change it if I could. (so that
it would log me out after no use for x minutes)

Thanks. 

>Jonathan M. Bobin <jmbobin@escape.com> wrote
>> Its impossible to get terminated, they provide unlimited, or 
>> at least advertise unlimited use of your account. If they do
>> terminate your account, you can take their sorry ass to court.

Netcom's terms and conditions specify that you may not leave a
connection inactive, nor may you run programs designed to "prod"
the connection every so often to make it LOOK active. If they
can prove you're doing that, they have the right to terminate
your account.

Unlimited access does not mean dedicated line.
-- 
 
SRE
 
* * *  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  * * *
* Eckert Enterprises   Steve Eckert   eckert@netcom.com *
* * *  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  * * *
* ftp:  192.100.81.1   415-508-0500   fax: 415-508-0501 *
* * *  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  * * *

TRY THIS:
  echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln256%Pln256/snlbx]sb3135071790101768542287578439snlbxq'|dc

"Michelle" <michelle@southland.net> wrote:

>much as they NEED to be.   Is it really necessary though to leave a dialup
>connection active while away from home while you're not really *doing
>anything* ?   I always thought that is what people needed "dedicated
>connections" for.   

Well, you know, if certain ISP's had more modems so that one COULD
connect when you needed to, then people wouldn't have to keep their
connection active in fear of not being able to get back on.  It's a
two-way street.

Neal Riemer (moriarty@netcom.com) wrote:
: Odd, because I remember once I forgot to log off while using someone's
: Netcruiser account, and when I went back _hours_ later, though my shell
: telnet had been kicked out, the Netcruiser was still active. I have
: not changed any settings on it as far as I can remember (Netlooser software).
: Where might these settings be? I'd like to change it if I could. (so that
: it would log me out after no use for x minutes)

My guess is that at first, they didn't mind Netcruiser accounts staying
online while idle.  After all, if the person forgot to hang up for too long
it'd go into their 40 hours primetime, use it up, and then start charging 
by the hour.  Not a bad deal - I've seen a number of boards and services
that charge by hour allow people to stay on idling.

-- \_awless is : Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com / lawless@eskimo.com)
-- In your head, no car is fast enough,
-- In your heart, no love is true.
-- Will it ruin all your solitary fancies
-- If I tell you that it isn't only you?  -- Emma Bull

detalia@juno.com wrote in article <501q63$cia@mel.hargray.com>...
> Well, you know, if certain ISP's had more modems so that one COULD
> connect when you needed to, then people wouldn't have to keep their
> connection active in fear of not being able to get back on.  It's a
> two-way street.

	Wonder how much of that modem bank utilization that is keeping people
off-line is other people paranoid that their precious connection may not
come back if they drop it?  This is a chicken-or-egg problem.  If users
DIDN'T sit on line all day long with ping-bots and other contrivances,
there would be a lot more modems in the bank free for real utilization.
	Fact- For 20 dollars a month, you are not buying full exclusive rights to
the use of hundreds of dollars of modem & network equipment.  You are
participating in a highly competitive marketplace where ignorance of cost
factor and blind competitiveness has driven pricing down and modem ratios
up. Where costs for lines and terminal servers and web storage are divided
equally between a critical number of users per line installed. Most people
pay a lot more for cable TV than they do for unlimited access to the global
network.  What do you get more from?  What is more complex to get to your
door?  In a typical modem bank with a modem ratio of between 8 to 1 to 10
to 1, for that modem you are sitting on, doing nothing with, there are at
least 7 or 8 other people that your ISP has an expectation will try to call
that modem over a daily period.  This works when people do not feel
entitled to stay on the phone all day long.  It breaks down when that ratio
load has to be shifted over the rest of the modem pool, just because
someone is afraid they might not be able to log in.
	Fact-  ISPs will really not make more or less money under an unmetered
charge structure if there is turnover on a modem bank or not.  So you
really arent doing them any harm as long as you still write them a check
every month.  The people you are screwing over are your fellow users. 
Remember them? Some of the OTHER people who use your provider, who are also
probably having a hard time connecting.  As soon as someone plops down on
another modem, it just gets harder for them to dial in.  Of course, why
should anyone care about other users?  Especially when one has paid his
princely sum of 20 bucks and damnit, he is going to have "his" modem
	Another Fact- When a market migrates into decisions based mainly on price,
service is going to almost by definition degrade as costs are driven down. 
Nothing is immune to the axiom "You get what you pay for".  When people
express by their buying decision that price is their only concern (And I am
quite aware that many reading this group do NOT follow this thinking, I am
only addressing what I see as a overall market movement.), they somehow
forget this natural law of the universe.  This is a warning to everyone....
 as you move from cheaper to cheaper ISPs, busy signals will increase,
downtime will extend, technical expertise will plummet, and options and
choices for doing things on the net will evaporate.  There is a lot of
venture capital out there waiting to flood into this market (already is
beginning to, actually), and I think we may soon see a lot of clueless
"Internet Gold-Rush" ventures pissing away investment money by trying to
capture a market share with low rates (by pouring that capital into the
revenue loss).  I give them 3-6 months before the need to be profitable
really makes them hit the skids.
	I'm diverging into a wholly different topic here, but one I feel needed to
be addressed, because from my perspective it is at the root of why poor
service is croping up out there. And why there might be a whole lot more on
the horizon.  Choose your ISP wisely if you want more than a cheap monthly
rate.  You WILL get what you pay for, one way or another.  And do your
fellow users a favor...  hang up the phone when you aren't using it.  Be
part of the solution, not the problem.

						Damon Reed
						-Digital America-
						dreed@damerica.net

rbischof@pobox.com (Ronald J. Bischof) wrote:
> trebor@sirius.com wrote:
> > mitchb2@ix.netcom.com (Maestro) wrote:
> > >teddybur@netcom.com (John Sanger) wrote:
> > >>By unlimited use, Netcom has defined this as active keyboard involvement
> > >>with you sitting in front of your keyboard and actively inputting
> > >>keystrokes from time to time.......
> > >What if you set Agent to download a ton of stuff from binaries groups?
> > >I've done that before and wasn't disconnected.
> > Then you're generating traffic, and that's ok. In fact, that's probably the
> > best way to read newsgroups online. Start of big batch of binary downloads,
> > then go read your newsgroup.
> > Saturate your connection as much as possible. If you don't use all your
> > bandwidth, it just goes to waste.
> Gee, sounds wasteful and boring. I just set Eudora Pro 3.0 to check my
> mail every 8 minutes and stay connected as long as I want.

That depends - if you're downloading the binaries just to hold a connection
open, that's defeating the purpose - you might as well go offline, you've
already gotten the news you're actually going to read.  But you might as well
read part of the news while the rest of it is downloading, yes, unless there's
something better to do while you're online (Web browsing, log into another
site, etc).

Other points to ponder:
1) How much can you do online before your bandwidth (not the slowness of the
   servers you're accessing) becomes the limiting factor, i.e. when each new
   task slows all your others down?  Should that point be considered the most
   efficient usage of your connection?
2) How much of the servers' time are you using by multitasking, and is it
   worth it to get off the modem faster?  Probably so - the servers probably
   handle hundreds or thousands of people all day, while a local modem bank
   only takes a couple dozen people to block it.

-- 
Ed Murphy                       "A person who is 'of sound mind' is one who
zvyezda@ix.netcom.com            keeps the inner madman under lock and key."
#include <std/disclaimer.h>                                -Paul Valery

teddybur@netcom.com (John Sanger) wrote:

>In article <Pine.BSI.3.91.960825104326.18836A-100000@escape.com> "Jonathan M. Bobin" <jmbobin@escape.com> writes:
>>Dear 3133+ DAwn:
>>
>>Its impossible to get terminated, they provide unlimited, or 
>>at least advertise unlimited use of your account. If they do
>>terminate your account, you can take their sorry ass to court.
>>
>
>Bullshit!
>
>Netcom sets the policy and Netcom does infact have a policy that will
>lead to a termination of the account should you be running a tool or
>script that keeps your connection active while you are not actively
>using the Netcom service.  That is while you are sleeping or shopping or
>eating dinner or whatever..... Anytime you are not sitting at your
>computer keyboard then you are expected to log off.
>By unlimited use, Netcom has defined this as active keyboard involvement
>with you sitting in front of your keyboard and actively inputting
>keystrokes from time to time.......
>
>--
>Ciao!
>	John S. 8^{)>
>	teddybur@netcom.com
>__
>
>

What if you set Agent to download a ton of stuff from binaries groups?
I've done that before and wasn't disconnected.

mitchb2@ix.netcom.com (Maestro) wrote:

>teddybur@netcom.com (John Sanger) wrote:
>>By unlimited use, Netcom has defined this as active keyboard involvement
>>with you sitting in front of your keyboard and actively inputting
>>keystrokes from time to time.......
>
>What if you set Agent to download a ton of stuff from binaries groups?
>I've done that before and wasn't disconnected.

Then you're generating traffic, and that's ok. In fact, that's probably the
best way to read newsgroups online. Start of big batch of binary downloads,
then go read your newsgroup.

Saturate your connection as much as possible. If you don't use all your
bandwidth, it just goes to waste.

rbischof@pobox.com (Ronald J. Bischof) wrote:

>Gee, sounds wasteful and boring.

How so? I'm not downloading binaries just to keep the connection going.
It's stuff I want to download. Boring? I don't watch the stuff download. I
go read newsgroups while the stuff downloads.

>I just set Eudora Pro 3.0 to check my mail every 8 minutes and stay
>connected as long as I want.

Well, Agent can do that, too. I check my mail frequently, and stay
connected as long as I need.

In article <3225af91.428744@news.sirius.com>, trebor@sirius.com wrote:

> mitchb2@ix.netcom.com (Maestro) wrote:
> 
> >teddybur@netcom.com (John Sanger) wrote:
> >>By unlimited use, Netcom has defined this as active keyboard involvement
> >>with you sitting in front of your keyboard and actively inputting
> >>keystrokes from time to time.......
> >
> >What if you set Agent to download a ton of stuff from binaries groups?
> >I've done that before and wasn't disconnected.
> 
> Then you're generating traffic, and that's ok. In fact, that's probably the
> best way to read newsgroups online. Start of big batch of binary downloads,
> then go read your newsgroup.
> 
> Saturate your connection as much as possible. If you don't use all your
> bandwidth, it just goes to waste.

Gee, sounds wasteful and boring. I just set Eudora Pro 3.0 to check my
mail every 8 minutes and stay connected as long as I want.
-- 
Ron Bischof
--
Ronald J. Bischof
Bischof Consulting Services
http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/4189/bconsvc.html
email:  rbischof@pobox.com | pager: 310/636-7866 | fax: 310/649-6598
"fiat justitia, ruat caelum"

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:31:05 GMT, mitchb2@ix.netcom.com (Maestro)
wrote:

>teddybur@netcom.com (John Sanger) wrote:
>
>>In article <Pine.BSI.3.91.960825104326.18836A-100000@escape.com> "Jonathan M. Bobin" <jmbobin@escape.com> writes:
>>>Dear 3133+ DAwn:
>>>
>>>Its impossible to get terminated, they provide unlimited, or 
>>>at least advertise unlimited use of your account. If they do
>>>terminate your account, you can take their sorry ass to court.
>>>
>>
>>Bullshit!
>>
>>Netcom sets the policy and Netcom does infact have a policy that will
>>lead to a termination of the account should you be running a tool or
>>script that keeps your connection active while you are not actively
>>using the Netcom service.  That is while you are sleeping or shopping or
>>eating dinner or whatever..... Anytime you are not sitting at your
>>computer keyboard then you are expected to log off.
>>By unlimited use, Netcom has defined this as active keyboard involvement
>>with you sitting in front of your keyboard and actively inputting
>>keystrokes from time to time.......
>>
>>--
>>Ciao!
>>	John S. 8^{)>
>>	teddybur@netcom.com
>>__
>>
>>
>
>What if you set Agent to download a ton of stuff from binaries groups?
>I've done that before and wasn't disconnected.
>

Why you people arguing about this shit?  Netcom is ISP giant...  It
has to set limits somewhere, with over 500 thousand members, their
resorses are limited.  I suggest getting a small provider, the one
that doesn't mind you staying online, idle.  Why mess with big
company?  While a small one, doesn't mind?  I used netcom before, it
was a real pain in the ass, I had trouble connecting, the lines were
busy at night, and connection was not that good.  Now I have a small
ISP with 33.6 USR modems and it's connected full T1 to the internet
backbone.  It doesn't give a rat's ass if I "live" on their lines!
Plus I get great service, tech support and full uncensored access to
the net with all that ftp, news, www, etc.  Why?  You might ask, cause
my tech support doesn't have to give support to over 500 thousand
users!  In any way that you look at it, getting a small ISP in your
area is the best choice.  Visit Excite's Internet Directory and find a
local ISP in your area.  You won't be disappointed...

http://www.excite.com/

aleks@easyway.net (Aleks) wrote:

>I suggest getting a small provider, the one that doesn't mind you staying
>online, idle.

I prefer a smallish provider over a nation-wide giant, but NO ONE that I
know of "doesn't mind you staying online, idle."