🚀 go-pugleaf

Tracy Hornschuch (browntr@engr.orst.edu) wrote:

: On 7 Oct 1997, Karl Denninger wrote:
: > On the contrary.  Did you watch any TV this weekend?  The NOW folks were out
: > in force, and they were doing more to try to put the black hat on the PK
: > people than the beltway journalists have done to Clinton in the last two
: > years!

: Yep... I watched HBO Saturday night... 'First Wives Club' was on at 8:00.
: Interesting show... hahaha

: But really, I watch the news from 5:00-7:00 every evening.  The talked
: about PKs in Washington and my first thoughts were the ngs and the impact
: it will have in them.  No where was it mentioned on the station that I
: watched what the NOW organization had to say.  In fact they even showed
: some of the Hubbies come home and their reaction to the PK.  As from an
: earlier post on this subject I mentioned my reation to what one of the men
: had to say...

Actually, it seemed to me, from the newspapers and shows like Nightline, it
seemed like Patricia Ireland was THE person to represent the Loyal
Opposition to Promise Keepers (sort of like how Jesse Jackson is the go-to
guy when reporting on issues of race; not that either are necessarily
representative of people's opinions...)


: > >but maybe just
: > >maybe they are seeing them as a group of men who want to make women
: > >subservient.  
: > 
: > Again, the Gospel (if you believe in such) is rather clear on the truth of
: > this matter.  And again, it is the NOW folks who are pandering to this
: > version of their beliefs, and not the PK people.  I watched CNN for quite a
: > while this weekend, and the PK spokesmen who were on made this very clear --
: > their views track that of the bible.

: The Gospel... well I've read the Bible... front to back... no I can't
: quote from it like most others, but I've read it.  I've also read a few
: other Bibles in my time.  Talked to many others about their beliefs, etc.
: I've also really listened to the vowes that are spoken during a wedding.

: It isn't the NOW folks just saying this.  It has been around for a long
: time and NOW hasn't been around as long.  Also, keep in mind that there
: are people who use the words in the Bible to promote hatred of people
: bacause of the color of their skin and/or because of what they believe.

People will use ANYTHING to justify their selfish ways, like science for
racism, etc. But i believe you understand this.

: > >Let's take a look at some things that are happening in society today.  How
: > >about divorse.  
: > 
: > Why don't we talk about divorce in this context....  How do you end up in
: > divorce court if you're a PKer?  Do you know *anything* about what this
: > movement is about?  Its about keeping people *OUT* of divorce court above
: > virtually everything else!  Or, at least, its about keeping them out *IF
: > THEY WOULD END UP THERE BECAUSE THE MAN WAS ACTING LIKE AN ASS*, which men
: > do sometimes engage in.

: Yes I do know what they are wanting to do.  I do know.  As I've said I
: have nothing against them but that they have a need to stick the Christian
: religion in it.
More than a "religion"---PK is about relationships. Even more than if a bad
relationship with a spouse will spill over into friendships, parental
relationships, etc....having a bad relationship with God will ruin ALL
relationships, especially that of family.

: And divorse happens.  Just like that, it just happens.  PK is for men, but
: that doesn't mean that their wives won't have affairs and leave their
: husbands.  No where is there a promise on the behalf of the women.  Now is
: there?

PK is about men dealing with issues within themselves, and taking
responsibility for their sins.  If women want to organize their own type of
PK movement, i don't the men's PK would object. They just don't want to run
such a thing (nor should they; then they would be dominating ;)

: > In fact, one of *THE* basic tenants of this movement is to be a *BETTER*
: > husband, *BETTER* father, and *BETTER* man.  That is, no screwing around on
: > your wife, no beating her (and/or the kids), no drunken foolery, none of the
: > things which have this nasty habit of leading you right *INTO* divorce
: > court!  And to buttress your own resolve as an individual, you pledge that
: > your fellow PKer is your partner in keeping you on the straight and narrow.

: I know this... there isn't any reason for you to go off like this....  You
: must not have read everything I said.  Just read what you wanted to.

Duh. It's Karl you responded to. ;)

: > The problem, of course, is that the man is only half of the reason that
: > people end up in divorce court.  So now what do you have if the man in a
: > relationship reforms through PK?  Why, now if you wind up in divorce court,
: > its probably not because the guy wants to be there!  Perhaps its even the
: > woman who files for divorce, wants the divorce, and perhaps, just perhaps,
: > its because "the grass is greener on the other side of the yard" or she sees
: > a nice fat paycheck with ZERO responsibility if she ditches Mr. Husband who
: > brings her flowers and treats her like a Goddess all the time!

: Or ditches Mr. Husband 'cause he wants her to stay at home and she wants
: to work.

If he's that strict, he's an idiot. He needs to read Proverbs 31, as well as
several women in the Bible, such as Lydia, the seller or purple (in Acts &
New Testament).

: > Nowhere in what I've read about PKers does it say anything about "staying 
: > at home and tending the kids" as being one of their basic tenants.  And
: > besides, who wants out of the marriage?  If the woman wants to leave for
: > other than reasons of abuse (ie: "I want Jack over there because he's better 
: > in bed") and you got married under the *covenant* that you wouldn't do Jack,
: > and further, that you'd raise your kids under Christian ideals, then go
: > ahead and walk -- but IMHO you should get *absolutely nothing* in that
: > circumstance.  

: Nowhere is it mentioned that the women stay at home... Hum.. I don't think
: so.  Maybe not all pratice that, but that is what is precieved in society.
: Once again what I was talking about is not necessarily *MY* views but how
: society is viewing it...  That could be totally different.

i think you're probably right in society's perception of what Christians
think about women.  But the Bible gives clear examples to the contrary (like
i said, Proverbs 31).

: > All this means nothing if the local Justice of the Peace married you.  
: > Heh, then you have a deal under State governance, not under a religion.
: > Once again, that's a choice, and its made freely by both parties.

: Oh, then I should restate my statement above... The religion that married
: you should *force* you to stay married.

: > But if you get married in front of Jesus Christ, by a Priest, in a Church,
: > then you ought to be prepared to either walk the talk or *don't do it*.

: No joke... My arguement isn't on this...  This is one reason why I don't
: go to church... If someone can't stick to it, they shouldn't be there.  If
: you don't believe in something whole heartly... then stay away from it.

: > Further, the state ought to respect that agreement you made before God and
: > not abrogate it for other than the reasons allowed under *THAT* deal.

: This I don't really argee with.  Because there are funny cults out there
: that do some real strange things.  If the State stayed out, then there are
: innocent children that can get hur.  Isn't this true?

: > >I mean really now... I thought there were some men who did want to stay at
: > >home while their wife worked.
: > 
: > There are.

: Okay, then we must agree on something... 

: > >Another big problem that many people have with the PKs is why
: > >Christianity?  Personally I have no problem with the PKs.  I think it is
: > >great that there are men out there in this world who want to make promises
: > >along the lines of fatherhood and husbandhood.  But why Christianity?
: > 
: > Why not?  Don't we have a freedom of religion in this country?

: Because if they want to be on the good side of people who are not NOW like
: me and others... they should stop preaching from the Christian Bible.  All
: that they are accomplishing here is making themselves look like they are
: just another Christian group with just another cause.  If they want to
: change the way men in general and all men view themselves, marriages, and
: fatherhood... then they need to start including other religions.

As i said before, the fundemental drive of PK is that what's wrong with men,
and why their relationships and lives are so bad, is their relationship with
God.  That relationship begins through Jesus the Christ.  Take Jesus out of
Promise Keepers, and you would have no Promise Keepers.


: It should have to be based on the Bible.  To be a good father and good
: husband should depend on the Bible.
^^^^
Did you actually type the above? Or was that Karl?


: > >There are many other religions in the world that preach basically the same
: > >thing.  Why couldn't the PKs be just about making the promise to
: > >themselves, their wives, and society.  Why bring God into it?  Why is it
: > >that these men need an excuss to make this promis?
: > 
: > Because they want to.  Just like I support your right to bay at the moon in
: > full nudity under the name of some Goddess if you want, or proclaim that
: > there is no God at all.

: I never said that there wasn't a God, or a Christian God.  You really have
: no idea what I believe in do you?

: > >But I cannot support such an organization
: > >that doesn't support human rights as a whole.
: > 
: > Please document this.  I've seen no evidence of that behavior or lack of
: > support, and my views towards the PKers would change in a heartbeat if I
: > actually *DID* see evidence of that.

: You will only see what you want to see.  I see from the heart.... I see a
: bunch of men who mean well, but are not going about it in the right way.
: They are leaving too many people out by depending on Christianity as their
: source.

What i 'd like to ask is "How does Promise Keepers NOT support human rights
as a whole?"

: > >I don't support the NOW organization 'cause it seems to want to bash men
: > >constantly and expects too much.  Personally I support single income
: > >families... something the NOW organization would find bad 'cause most
: > >people will assume that this means women must stay at home.
: > 
: > Special rights are not human rights.

: I don't support special rights either.  Just the basic human rights.
: There is a difference.

Please explain.

: > >I support overall human rights.  Everyone's!  It shouldn't matter if
: > >you're Christian or not.  It shouldn't matter if you're woman or man.  It
: > >shouldn't matter what color your skin is.
: > 
: > The PKers have not, to my knowledge, said anything different than this.

: they speak from the Christian Bible... that is all that needs to be said.
Umm...no, there is a lot to be said.  Jesus spoke from what we call today
The Old Testament. Yet very few people argue directly with what Jesus said.


: > If you have evidence that they have, I'd love to see it.  I've read a LOT
: > about these folks in the last few weeks -- God knows, Time Magazine had them
: > on the cover!  The sinister intent and displacement that people are claiming
: > is going on is, at this point at least, completely without basis.

: Well, Karl... I don't have *that* much time on my hands... I have kids to
: support, feed, and take care of.  I would rather spend time with them then
: to fnd proof.

: The only proof that I need is the fact that they preach from the Bible and
: not their hearts.  I've read the Bible and it does speak for itself.  And
: like I've said, I've read several other *Bibles* from other religions.
: Most say the same basic things and preach the same basic rules in life.

What did you note were the basic differences? What was at the heart of some
of those other beliefs?

: Why not start an organization that will promote good husbands and fathers
: just because they are men... not because they are men and Christian.

: What about the men out there who are not Christian?  What about the men
: that are Jewish?

Can one still be considered Jewish if they still believe that Jesus was the
messiah?

: Show me proof where the PKers include Jewish men, and what they believe in
: and support.

What kind of proof would you be interested in? As i asked, would you
consider someone who still believed in Jesus Jewish? If so, i'd like to
point out some of the rabbis who spoke & prayed at PK. You can also ask PK
to e-mail you some other resources...


Working on aga'pe love

--jp--




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