🚀 go-pugleaf

Tracy Hornschuch (browntr@engr.orst.edu) wrote:

: On 7 Oct 1997, Karl Denninger wrote:

: [snipped]
: > 
: > You have a million men assemble in our nation's capital to do only ONE 
: > thing -- pray to God on their knees in the heart of the nation -- and 
: > all the media covers is all the people who see something sinister in 
: > a group of men making the sign of the cross!

: I don't think that people are seeing the PKs as sinister, but maybe just
: maybe they are seeing them as a group of men who want to make women
: subservient.  Now before anyone goes off on a tangent let's take a look at
: why...

: Most churches teach women their *roles* in society.  These roles are are
: to stay at home and raise the kids.  To take care of their husband.  Heck,
: it is stated in the vowes when they are married.

Is that correct? Even with traditional vows (if remember correctly), BOTH
parties to to obey each other, and there is no gender-specific vow,
especially in terms the wife as a homemaker.

: So there are many people, both men and women, who do not feel that this is
: correct...  Is can and has caused problems in the history of humankind.

: Let's take a look at some things that are happening in society today.  How
: about divorse.  So one of these PKs end up in divorse court....  They find
: thenselves facing a woman who they thought they married, but she's
: changed.  Instead of making him dinner she now wants the house, the kids,
: child-support, and because she stayed at home throughout the marriage...
: she wants allomony.  Hum... this has happened to a friend of mine.  We
: almost got married, but didn't 'cause I wouldn't stay at home...

But nowadays, isn't this usually resolved (to a degree) by pre-marital
counseling? i was just talking about this with my roommates....our parents
lived in an era of "no fault" divorce. The effect of that is, we're all wary
of relationships, and actually won't commit till we have "the issues"
resolved. 


: Now where does this leave this man and this woman?  And what about the
: kids?

: You can't blaim NOW for men's problems in court when there are wanting a
: wife to stay at home and raising the kids.  You can't.  In fact you should
: be thanking NOW for trying to get more women in the work force.

There's a balance. A trend that's been in the news is how (yeesh, bad
grammar!) a number of prominent women executives have resigned because they
want more time with their families.  

(Personally, i wouldn't want to have work dominate my timewith my family,
either)

And thanks to the Internet and other advances, men can work, but stay at
home as well...



: I mean really now... I thought there were some men who did want to stay at
: home while their wife worked.

: Another big problem that many people have with the PKs is why
: Christianity?  Personally I have no problem with the PKs.  I think it is
: great that there are men out there in this world who want to make promises
: along the lines of fatherhood and husbandhood.  But why Christianity?
: There are many other religions in the world that preach basically the same
: thing.  Why couldn't the PKs be just about making the promise to
: themselves, their wives, and society.  Why bring God into it?  Why is it
: that these men need an excuss to make this promis?

That's really the key issue: God.  All the relationship issues (include
between races; there was a time of repentance by MANY ethnic groups as well
as forgiveness), we as Christians belive, break down when our most important
relationship-with God- is not right.   All the problems we have that are
caused by men are due to the man himself: Not his circumstances, his
culture, etc.

PK is focusing on a particular group, and showing how they can be restored
to a right relationship with God, and how that will then affect others (i.e.
families). 

Why not another religion? Because it's not about rules, (or even "prmises,
which are similar to relgious rules, only self-imposed), it's about a
relationship with God.

Men have guilt (i.e. are responsible) for what they have done. However,
there is nothing we can really do to erase that. God sent Jesus, not only to
prove He understands us, and not only to teach how to live, but to give us
the opportunity to give. His death on the cross is the one thing that can
"pay" for our guilt. With anyone else, there is still the question of "You
did some good things, but still, you did..."

Accepting what Jesus did, and His authority, is what can heal us and heal
our society.

: If the PKs were less religious if not none at all, then I would support
: them more.  If not totally.  But I cannot support such an organization
: that doesn't support human rights as a whole.

The best standard for judging the men of Promise Keepers (and what they
stand for) is comparing them to Jesus (especially as presented in the 4
Gospels).  i believe He treated everyone within human rights standards.
If they don't match up to Jesus, or don't at least try to, when you gently
point it out--then you should absolutely have a problem with that.

: I don't support the NOW organization 'cause it seems to want to bash men
: constantly and expects too much.  Personally I support single income
: families... something the NOW organization would find bad 'cause most
: people will assume that this means women must stay at home.

: I support overall human rights.  Everyone's!  It shouldn't matter if
: you're Christian or not.  It shouldn't matter if you're woman or man.  It
: shouldn't matter what color your skin is.

i'm curious...where do you see human rights violations (that sounds extreme,
but i think you know what i mean) with Promise Keepers? Patricia Ireland and
some radical feminists (i have SOME respect for Lorna Brett, President of
the Chicago NOW chapter, who acknowledged some posiitves and seemed
reasonable) play on fears based on generalities. 

I'd appreciate specifics, especially based on what you've seen from Promise
keeper families or "similar" movements/churches.

: Tracy


: browntr@engr.orst.edu                   | tracyh@teleport.COM
: http://www.engr.orst.edu/~browntr/      | http://www.teleport.com/~tracyh/
: I would like to find a man who wants    | Have you told your children
: to be married and a father for life.    | you love them today?

: "The only safe computer is a dead computer"


Thanks for bringing up some good points and things to think about. The only
thing i ask is that you truly consider who Jesus is and act accordingly.

Working on aga'pe love...


--
j.p. paulus                               4625 N. Kenmore Avenue  #2
shadowm@ripco.com                              Chicago IL 60640-5024
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~shadowm/index.html         773/784-5640
    ********************** GO GOD!!!!! ************************