🚀 go-pugleaf

"George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
[dot] net> wrote in message
news:vticd1td56bh5vp4ov3f0i4b2e0qqp764b@4ax.com

> Is somebody trying to peddle some "test" equipment on the
> audio newsgroups?

Yes. We've got a problem here with people who seem to think
that CD players and amplifiers are test equipment that
everybody needs to buy.

> I can't figure out the point of this discussion.

Given your demonstrated lack of interest in audio Middius,
this surprises me very little.

>Who would
> want to go to all the trouble of setting up a
scientifically
> meaningful "test" just to decide which CD player to get?

Good question. People like Pinkerton and I tell people that
CD players tend to sound very much alike. Therefore they
should make their CD player choices based other factors that
are more important to them.

Unfortunately we've got the technologically backward
nay-sayers like Fella, who want people to believe that their
are mind-boggling audible differences between CD players,
amplifiers and everything else. They're the guys who are
peddling tests - in their case sighted, non-level-matched,
non-time-synched listening tests. They're the guys who are
peddling test equipment, in their case people should buy
this amplifier and test it at home, and then buy that
amplifier and test it at home, and so forth.

> I  don't think there's a shred of realism in this
ideology.

Middius, you're not even a real person. How can you
logically present yourself as a judge of realism? Look at
the people around you like Art and Surf. They are so ashamed
of what they post here and their long-term close association
with you that they won't even use their real names here.

> If you want "science", you can't just have a friend switch
the
> components back and forth, and then try to decide which is
> which.

It's not about science, its about doing a reasonble
comparison. That is, if you are actually going to do the
listening tests that people lik Fella and Art keep pushing.

>That's not a real "test", it's just a crude simulation.

Agreed, what that kind of test procedure there's no
level-matching and there's no time-synching so of course
everything will sound different, which is what Art and Fella
keep pushing.

> If you want a real "test", you need testing equipment, a
truly
> quiet environment, and meaningful controls of bias.
Otherwise
> you're just spinning your wheels.

Since when are you an expert about testing, Middius? What
good listening tests have you done and where have you posted
the results? Have you written any papers or magazine
articles about testing? Since when have you been in favor of
testing audio equipment? Why the change of heart?

> So I have to think that after one of these inane go-rounds
> about "tests", somebody is going to pop up with an offer
to
> sell some "test" equipment.

Seems like a worthy business opportunity for you Middius,
given that you have no known job, no known tradem, no known
business, no known education, and no known means of support.

> When it happens, we can all laugh
> about the salesman who tried to sell snow to Eskimos.

Whatever that means.

Arny Krueger wrote:

> 
> Good question. People like Pinkerton and I tell people that
> CD players tend to sound very much alike.

You impose your misconceptions upon people, you try to rob them of their 
freedom of choice and preference, you try to rob them of their potential 
audio enjoyment. It's almost criminal. There is almost a touch of evil 
in ferstlers cynicism of "everything sounds the same you dumb tweakos" 
attitude, for instance.

What's more, you people seem to be going after the high-end industry. 
You'd be happy if they all just buckled up and whithered away into 
bankruptcy. I don't want my kids to have to listen to music from wicked 
sounding metallic assembly line crap gear produced with only 
cost-effectiveness in mind and nothing else.

> Therefore they
> should make their CD player choices based other factors that
> are more important to them.

Thus you mislead them.

> 
> Unfortunately we've got the technologically backward
> nay-sayers like Fella, who want people to believe that their
> are mind-boggling audible differences between CD players,
> amplifiers and everything else.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "mind-boggling" .. When or if a piece of 
equipment introduces mind-boggling huge differences to the music, it is 
IMHO, somewhat "improper". It almost leads to means taking over the end, 
that is, we have audio equipment in order to be able to listen to music, 
yes, but with an amp like the BAT, you have music in order to be able to 
listen to the luscious, extravagant, grandiose sound of the amp!  Some 
might "prefer" to have things that way, OK. But to me, it's improper, 
though I am not offended by it in any way.

(It was quite a surprise actually. I had expected the BAT to sound more 
like the lean, fast densen but with a better, a bit more daring bass 
slam. Though it was fast, not the usually flatulent, slow bass one gets 
from tube amps, but it turned out it was a tube-wannabe in the midrange.)


> They're the guys who are
> peddling tests - in their case sighted, non-level-matched,
> non-time-synched listening tests.

You are the one peddling tests. I just merely say that the tests you 
meddle do not work, since they kill off existing subtle differences, 
what with the setup and the actual act of being subjected to them. I 
just resist. I trust what I hear.



> in their case people should buy
> this amplifier and test it at home,

You do not need to buy something to test it at home. I never said that 
people should constantly buy amps and switch them around. You have 
trouble enough trying to express yourself, don't try it on my behalf also.


> 
> Agreed, what that kind of test procedure there's no
> level-matching and there's no time-synching so of course
> everything will sound different, which is what Art and Fella
> keep pushing.

This is another example of your bullshit arny. There has been many 
instances where with sighted auditioning a given piece of equipment 
sounded almost identical to the piece it was supposed to better.


> 
> Since when are you an expert about testing, Middius? 


Compared to you my dog is an expert-shlexpert on testing. And just 
think, I don't even have a dog. :)

"Fella" <nosp@m.here> wrote in message
news:RbuBe.4729$MB7.1343@reader1.news.jippii.net
> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> Good question. People like Pinkerton and I tell people
that
>> CD players tend to sound very much alike.

> You impose your misconceptions upon people,

Fella, you make it sound like Pinkerton and I have some
supernatural control over readers. Reading our posts is a
free choice. Our posts  unlike yours Fella, are headed up
with our correct legal names. If people don't want to be
influenced by us, they have free control over their thoughts
and minds.

> you try to rob them of their freedom of choice and
preference,

Fella, how do we rob people of their freedom via Usenet?  It
appears that you are trying to rob us of our rights to free
speech by telling lies about us.

> you try to rob  them of their potential audio enjoyment.

Which audio enjoyment is that, Fella. Is it the enjoyment of
being duped into buying overpriced audio gear by nameless
aliases such as yourself who take advantage of the
untracable nature of Usenet to make elaborate claims about
expensive equipment that you show evidence of never having
even seen a proper picture of?

> It's almost criminal.

Quit hyperventillating, Fella or whatever your real legal
name is.

> There is almost a touch of evil
> in ferstlers cynicism of "everything sounds the same you
dumb
> tweakos" attitude, for instance.

Thanks Fella for showing that you can't distinguish between
what Ferstler actually says which is that some things sound
the same and what you make up for him to say, which is that
everything sound the same.


> What's more, you people seem to be going after the
high-end  industry.

So what is the High End industry, a sacred cow?

> You'd be happy if they all just buckled up and
> whithered away into bankruptcy.

If you haven't noticed Fella, most of us live in
more-or-less free competitive capitalist societies. Nobody
deserves a big chunk of people's cash just because they are
high end audio dealers or manufacturers.

> I don't want my kids to have
> to listen to music from wicked sounding metallic assembly
line
> crap gear produced with only cost-effectiveness in mind
and
> nothing else.

Fella, you make it sound like we put a freeze on your bank
accounts and are stopping you from wasting your money.

>> Therefore they
>> should make their CD player choices based other factors
that
>> are more important to them.

> Thus you mislead them.

What is misleading about suggesting to people that they
should base their choices on real differences that matter to
them?

>> Unfortunately we've got the technologically backward
>> nay-sayers like Fella, who want people to believe that
their
>> are mind-boggling audible differences between CD players,
>> amplifiers and everything else.

> I wouldn't go so far as to say "mind-boggling"

Perhaps, not with the rest of us watching.

>.. When or if a
> piece of equipment introduces mind-boggling huge
differences
> to the music, it is IMHO, somewhat "improper".

Now you're splitting hairs Fella. Look at the elaborate
overblown claims you made about that BAT integrated amp
whose basic properties you didn't even know until I pointed
them out to you a few days ago.

>It almost leads

>> They're the guys who are
>> peddling tests - in their case sighted,
non-level-matched,
>> non-time-synched listening tests.

> You are the one peddling tests.

That's just a lame come-back. Try something original next
time, Fella.

> I just merely say that the tests you meddle do not work,
since they kill off existing
> subtle differences, what with the setup and the actual act
of being subjected to
> them. I   just resist. I trust what I hear.

No Fella, you trust uncontrolled level differences,
auditions where the identical same music is not played over
both pieces of equipment, and equipment being in full sight;
so that your prejudices and biases can control your choices.

>> in their case people should buy
>> this amplifier and test it at home,

> You do not need to buy something to test it at home.

That may be true if you are your local hifi dealers favorite
sucker.

 >I never  said that people should constantly buy amps and
switch them
> around.

Well Fella you rant and rave against us for saying that is a
bad idea.

>You have trouble enough trying to express yourself,
> don't try it on my behalf also.

That's just another  lame come-back. Try to say something
original next time, Fella.

>> Agreed, what that kind of test procedure there's no
>> level-matching and there's no time-synching so of course
>> everything will sound different, which is what Art and
Fella
>> keep pushing.

> This is another example of your bullshit arny. There has
been
> many instances where with sighted auditioning a given
piece of
> equipment sounded almost identical to the piece it was
> supposed to better.

Fella I note that you aren't addressing the fact that by
criticizing us for wanting levels to be matched, you are
promoting tests with mismatched levels. I note that you
aren't addressing the fact that by criticizing us for
wanting the music being matched, you are promoting tests
with mismatched music. I note that you aren't addressing the
fact that by criticizing us for sighted bias to be
controlled, you are promoting tests that are dominated by
sighted bias.

>> Since when are you an expert about testing, Middius?

> Compared to you my dog is an expert-shlexpert on testing.
And
> just  think, I don't even have a dog. :)

That's just yet another insulting lame come-back. Try
something original and clever next time, Fella.

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:50:08 +0300, Fella <nosp@m.here> wrote:

>Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> 
>> Good question. People like Pinkerton and I tell people that
>> CD players tend to sound very much alike.
>
>You impose your misconceptions upon people, you try to rob them of their 
>freedom of choice and preference, you try to rob them of their potential 
>audio enjoyment.

Actually no, we're providing them with useful information which could
save them enough money to buy better speakers.........

> It's almost criminal. There is almost a touch of evil 
>in ferstlers cynicism of "everything sounds the same you dumb tweakos" 
>attitude, for instance.
>
>What's more, you people seem to be going after the high-end industry. 

Yup, that's because it's full of incompetent con artists like Mark
Levinson, George Cardas, Yves Bernard Andre and Peter Qvortrup.

>You'd be happy if they all just buckled up and whithered away into 
>bankruptcy.

Yup.

> I don't want my kids to have to listen to music from wicked 
>sounding metallic assembly line crap gear produced with only 
>cost-effectiveness in mind and nothing else.

Pity that, since it sounds just the same as *well designed* high end
gear such as you can buy from Meridian or Krell. And you could then
buy really good speakers, which actually *do* make a difference.

>> Therefore they
>> should make their CD player choices based other factors that
>> are more important to them.
>
>Thus you mislead them.

Nope, that's top-drawer advice.
>> 
>> Unfortunately we've got the technologically backward
>> nay-sayers like Fella, who want people to believe that their
>> are mind-boggling audible differences between CD players,
>> amplifiers and everything else.
>
>I wouldn't go so far as to say "mind-boggling" .. When or if a piece of 
>equipment introduces mind-boggling huge differences to the music, it is 
>IMHO, somewhat "improper". It almost leads to means taking over the end, 
>that is, we have audio equipment in order to be able to listen to music, 
>yes, but with an amp like the BAT, you have music in order to be able to 
>listen to the luscious, extravagant, grandiose sound of the amp!

You just crucified your own argument. You're supposed to be listening
to the *musical performance*, you cretin!

-- 

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:21:54 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
<patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:

>Pity that, since it sounds just the same as *well designed* high end
>gear such as you can buy from Meridian or Krell.

Said the Krell owner.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:50:08 +0300, Fella <nosp@m.here> wrote:
> 
> 
>
>>I wouldn't go so far as to say "mind-boggling" .. When or if a piece of 
>>equipment introduces mind-boggling huge differences to the music, it is 
>>IMHO, somewhat "improper". It almost leads to means taking over the end, 
>>that is, we have audio equipment in order to be able to listen to music, 
>>yes, but with an amp like the BAT, you have music in order to be able to 
>>listen to the luscious, extravagant, grandiose sound of the amp!
> 
> 
> You just crucified your own argument. You're supposed to be listening
> to the *musical performance*, you cretin!
> 

Now how does my observation about the sound of BAT "crucify" my own 
argument, you dumbskull? I stated that I chose *not* to purchase the BAT 
  since it was exaggerating itself and getting in front of the music. 
How the f.ck does that tell you that I am not listening to the musical 
performance you idiot!

Were trying the "debating trade" shit that you quote out of context and 
think to gain the upper hand?! That is soo cheap.

What the FUCK! is wrong with you borgs?! Damn, this is just phenomenal!

"Fella" <trap.sp@m.com> wrote in message
news:AuyBe.4807$QY.4546@reader1.news.jippii.net

> What the F*CK! is wrong with you borgs?!

We're tired of your stupid antics, Fella.

> Damn, this is just phenomenal!

You can dish it out but you can't take it, eh?

Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Fella" <trap.sp@m.com> wrote in message
> news:AuyBe.4807$QY.4546@reader1.news.jippii.net
>
> > What the F*CK! is wrong with you borgs?!
>
> We're tired of your stupid antics, Fella.
>
> > Damn, this is just phenomenal!
>
> You can dish it out but you can't take it, eh?

Please boys, Take your ball back to your own back-yard and play with it
there and leave us at Aus.Hi-Fi to indulge in our own particular form
of insanity.

"Ayn Marx" <mdhjwh@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message 
news:1121386335.245078.265540@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Fella" <trap.sp@m.com> wrote in message
>> news:AuyBe.4807$QY.4546@reader1.news.jippii.net
>>
>> > What the F*CK! is wrong with you borgs?!
>>
>> We're tired of your stupid antics, Fella.
>>
>> > Damn, this is just phenomenal!
>>
>> You can dish it out but you can't take it, eh?
>
> Please boys, Take your ball back to your own back-yard and play with it
> there and leave us at Aus.Hi-Fi to indulge in our own particular form
> of insanity.
Ayn ,but we know the Americans like to play in everyones backyard but their 
own (with the exception of my cousins ,who are all jolly nice folk.:)
Gordon 

"Gordon" <gor2005@aapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:db7i73$b3s$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au...
> > Please boys, Take your ball back to your own back-yard and play with it
> > there and leave us at Aus.Hi-Fi to indulge in our own particular form
> > of insanity.
> Ayn ,but we know the Americans like to play in everyones backyard but
their
> own (with the exception of my cousins ,who are all jolly nice folk.:)

Since this is cross posted to 3 non Australian news groups, it's hardly fair
to blame them for Ayn's Xenophobia.

MrT.

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:39:34 -0500, dave weil <dweil2@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:21:54 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
><patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Pity that, since it sounds just the same as *well designed* high end
>>gear such as you can buy from Meridian or Krell.
>
>Said the Krell owner.

Indeed - but not many modern speakers are as hard to drive as my
Apogee Duetta Sigs.

-- 

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 06:28:22 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
<patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:39:34 -0500, dave weil <dweil2@bellsouth.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:21:54 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
>><patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Pity that, since it sounds just the same as *well designed* high end
>>>gear such as you can buy from Meridian or Krell.
>>
>>Said the Krell owner.
>
>Indeed - but not many modern speakers are as hard to drive as my
>Apogee Duetta Sigs.

Don't you know that Arnold claims that $200 commercial amps from
companies like Behringer don't have any problems delivering massive
amounts of power to almost any load?