🚀 go-pugleaf

Greetings and Blessings to all,

 Gary/Hal Raeburn wrote
>Just to expand the discussion of protege(e)s a bit, and to bring back a
>bit of the fireside-chat atmosphere...what is it that you believe to be
>the important factor in becoming/choosing an apprentice/squire/protege?
>
>And for those who are on the other end of the belt..why did you accept
>your Peer's offer, and what do you hope to accomplish in the end?
>
>This is intended for a general discussion, not a gripe session on Peers
>or a/s/p's.

For me, being both squire and an apprentice, the biggest factor was just
plain exposure. The apprentice part needed a little more expertise from
a Laurel in the A&S, someone to be able to ask for help from, to be
able to get good constructive critisims from, and to be taught the how
what and were of A&S in the SCA. As a squire, I have received help and
instruction on things besides fighting. Being an apprentice helps let
the Laurels know that you are interested in becoming one of their
Peers and they should assist in your training. The same is basically
true for being a squire. It has been said that the red belt is not
a status symbol, but a symbol of a relationship and also a target.
It was a one time in this Kingdom, that people wanting to be squires/
apprentices/proteges did not ask to become so. That practice seems
to be changing here. I don't now how for sure the Peers know that you
want to become their s/a/p, but when I ask to squire to a local Knight
he said yes and that he had been talking about me to other Knights.
Thats my nickels worth.
                                        chus
                                        Marke

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David Mann                              H.L. Marke von Mainz
Stillwater                              Mooneschadowe
Oklahoma                                Ansteorra

Greetings from Arval!  Hal Raeburn and Taliesin asked interesting
questions.

> what is it that you believe to be the important factor in
> becoming/choosing an apprentice/squire/protege?

> And for those who are on the other end of the belt..why did you accept
> your Peer's offer, and what do you hope to accomplish in the end?

For brevity, we might adopt the word "associate" as a general term for
these relationships.  I was never the minor player in any such
relationship, though I was once on the verge of accepting a squirehood, but
mundane circumstance interfered.  At the time, I want to enter the
relationship because I admired the knight enormously and felt that there
was a great deal I could have learned from him, on the field but more
importantly off the field in his other endeavors.  He was also a Pelican
and an artisan of some note, and I expected our relationship to draw on all
his skills.

When I consider an associate of my own, I look for an active, well-trained
mind, interest in my own arts, and potential for contribution to the
Society at large.  I can't tell you how I measure potential, but I usually
sum it up this way: I hope that each of my apprentices will someday be able
to win at least half the debates we have.

Taliesin wrote:

> I have heard it said that in practice that it is the squire's knight or
> master who nominates said squire for consideration for the Chivalry.  That
> would seem to make squire-hood a prerequisite for knighthood.

I think (and hope) this is a mis-interpretation.  If a gentle is an
associate, then his master's opinion will be highly valued in any
discussion of elevating him to the peerage.  Many peers will defer to his
master in deciding when he is ready, and may well not mention his name
until his master has opened the discussion.  However, if someone is _not_
an associate, it should certainly not disqualify a candidate from
consideration, and members of the order should consider it their duty to
consider candidates who have no one to speak for them.  I have not observed
in the East that lack of an association is a bar to advancement.  I have
heard that it is often so in other kingdoms but I have no direct
knowledge.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

Ah, this topic again. OK, my opinion (old readers of the Rialto may want to 
hit "n"; you've already seen my views):

I'm a protege, to a Pelican in a different Kingdom. The reason I wanted to
become a protege is due both to my personality and to my real-world training.
In the sciences, there is a very strong mentoring system (there are chains
of mentor-protege relationships that are really stunning in their length);
this stems from the system where graduate students take advisers who help
them focus their research, cheer them up when something didn't work, noodge
them to do stuff that's good for them, etc. In return, the grad student
furthers the research of the adviser, helps teach undergrads, keeps the
lab running and occasionally cheers up the *adviser*. A good relationship 
outlasts the grad student's doctoral defense, and that's how the chains form.
This system works well for me, and I feel that it has helped me along 
tremendously. I think it's only natural that I would look for such a 
relationship in the SCA.

My Pelican, who is as heraldry-obsessed as I am, functions as a sounding board
for new projects, offers good, relatively unbiased and friendly opinions
on things, gives me the occasional shove (which I need at times), and so
on. We haven't worked out clearly what I'm doing in return (heraldry can be
done long distance, but we don't see each other nearly enough), but he seems
to enjoy the relationship. We also do things together; we're cooking up a
class for the Knowne Worlde Heraldic Symposium this year. I suspect I'm 
getting more benefit from the relationship than he is; I like the sense of
feeling "anchored".

On the other hand, my husband has a personality opposite mine; he does not 
like to be told what to do. He was squired for a few years to an Eastern 
knight, and it manifestly did not work. (We are still very good friends with
the knight; in fact, we are very happily members of his household. The 
problem was not a personality clash; it was the nature of the knight-squire
relationship.) Relationships like this are not for everyone.

Status: I'd be fooling myself if I thought there was no status associated 
with such a relationship. A number of people were suprised that my husband
gave back his belt; I suspect it was seen as a come-down. In my case, I
wear no belt (my Pel doesn't want me to, which is fine by me), so the only
people aware of the situation in my Kingdom are those herald-types who
happen to know both of us. (And all of you now, of course.) I don't think
that it has any effect on my percieved status, and I don't really care. 
I have heard Pelicans refuse to take proteges because they felt 1) they had
nothing to teach and 2) it would only be political patronage (exact phrase
used.) I don't agree, but they have a right to do whatever they wish. 

Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*