Thread View: rec.pets
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Started by Be Good
Wed, 15 May 1996 00:00
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Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Be Good
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:00
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[I was handed this flyer by a black man in front of Safeway five years ago. Is it true?] [...] Something else people should be aware of is that much of the dog and cat food made in the U.S. contains meat and bone meal made from the bodies of cats and dogs killed at animal shelters. The poison (sodium pentobarbitol) used to kill the animals is still in the product when you feed it to your pet. Paying high prices is no guarantee that the pet food you buy is free of the poison. In fact, most pet food manufacturers do not know the sources of their meat byproducts. And it is legal to use cats and dogs. It would be more economical and healthier for your pet, to obtain fresh meat scraps from butcher shops, restaurants and super-market meat departments. The scraps usually cost very little, or are given away for free. Be sure to obtain plenty of bones with the scraps for nutritional balance, and let the place know that the scraps are for your dog or cat. If you want more information on dogs and cats killed at animal shelters being used for pet food, call (415) 954-1252. -- God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Natalie Rigertas
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:00
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Be Good (qut@netcom.com) wrote: : [I was handed this flyer by a black man in front of : Safeway five years ago. Is it true?] : [...] : sources of their meat byproducts. And it is legal : to use cats and dogs. actually, it is not legal. cats and dogs are not approved by ummm..usda? dept of agriculture (the place that regulates meat) as food additives (and yes, meat *is* regulated for pet food). Which is why you never see dogs on the menu in Asian restaurants where it is commonplace to eat them in *that* country : It would be more economical and healthier : for your pet, to obtain fresh meat scraps from : butcher shops, restaurants and super-market meat : departments. The scraps usually cost very little, : or are given away for free. Be sure to obtain : plenty of bones with the scraps for nutritional : balance, meat scraps (mostly fat, when you think about it) and bones are not enough for nutrition. Unless you plan to spend ;your days grinding bone, how would you expect your pet to eat it? Can't use fish or chicken bones, as they tend to get stuck in your pet's throat. but then you say, why not give vitamins? well *shock* pet vitamens generally have some sort of meat which supplis protein...gee, what if it was cat protein giving protein to my cat? what is on the label of your dog food is what is in it, at least in the us, where labeling is regulated
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Mike -n- Val Stephens
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:00
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I have always *heard* that they use horse meat for cat/dog food. Also,
picking up bones for nutritional support?! You're more likely to come
home and find fluffy choking to death. I think this man was just cruel. I
do not believe it's legal to use ground dog for cat food, BUT i could be
mistaken there. I do know of a dog treat that uses pig penis', so who knows.
My guess is no, because they companys know that if anyone knew about it,
they'd stop buying the product. Just my 2 cents.
Val & DObie
Be Good (qut@netcom.com) wrote:
: [I was handed this flyer by a black man in front of
: Safeway five years ago. Is it true?]
: [...]
: Something else people should be aware of is
: that much of the dog and cat food made in the U.S.
: contains meat and bone meal made from the bodies of
: cats and dogs killed at animal shelters. The
: poison (sodium pentobarbitol) used to kill the
: animals is still in the product when you feed it to
: your pet. Paying high prices is no guarantee that
: the pet food you buy is free of the poison. In
: fact, most pet food manufacturers do not know the
: sources of their meat byproducts. And it is legal
: to use cats and dogs.
: It would be more economical and healthier
: for your pet, to obtain fresh meat scraps from
: butcher shops, restaurants and super-market meat
: departments. The scraps usually cost very little,
: or are given away for free. Be sure to obtain
: plenty of bones with the scraps for nutritional
: balance, and let the place know that the scraps
: are for your dog or cat.
: If you want more information on dogs and
: cats killed at animal shelters being used for pet
: food, call (415) 954-1252.
: --
: God grant me the serenity to accept
: the things I cannot change,
: the courage to change the things I can,
: and the wisdom to know the difference
--
'Keep those ferrets )|||||( /====\ )|( 'Hey dad,
away from me!' | | /| |\ (/ \) can the cat
/\___/\ |@ @ | //| @ @|\\ / o o \ )|( come
( o o ) | U | ///| U |\\\ \ u / /oo \) play?'
------((---------))-oo0O-------O0oo----o0O----O0o-----||-----||---------------
Opinions exressed here may not be the opinions of both Michael AND Valerie..
you never know when one's taking the side of another animal!
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: REP
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:00
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:00
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Be Good (qut@netcom.com) wrote: : [I was handed this flyer by a black man in front of : Safeway five years ago. Is it true?] I have heard that cats and dogs are rendered into animal feed. That's why I don't feed my cats anything that lists "animal by-products" as an ingredient. Besides basic squeamishness, it does not seem a wise thing to feed a cat. After all, it is suspected that BSE (mad cow disease) was brought about by feeding cows rendered cows and sheep. And whose stupid idea was it to feed ruminants meat?
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Hunter
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:00
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:00
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nrigert@orion.it.luc.edu (Natalie Rigertas) wrote: >Which is why you >never see dogs on the menu in Asian restaurants where it is commonplace >to eat them in *that* country Not again. This is the second thread in the last month that has started the "Asians eat dogs and cats" stuff. If you want to generalise, get your facts right. If not, please identify the countries you're talking about. I recognise that you may not be that good on Geography, but Asia is actually quite large, and contains a wide variety of cultures. I suggest you look it up in the library. SOME Asian countries consider dog meat to be a valid foodstuff. SOME Asian countries may also consider cat to be a valid foodstuff. I'm not an expert on the whole of Asia, so I won't give a categorical denial. SOME Asian countries have substantial Buddhist populations, the stricter of whom find the eating of any meat disgusting. MANY Asian countries are largely Moslem, to whom the thought of eating dog is as offensive as eating pig, and who consider cats to be the nearest thing they have to a 'sacred' animal. MANY MORE Asian countries consider dogs and cats to be pets. This may surprise you but it is actually true. Beth
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: warren
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:00
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:00
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In <4nheqe$lk5@news1.channel1.com>, glyford@us1.channel1.com (Glenn S. Lyford) writes: >>derek@nezsdc.fujitsu.co.nz (Derek Tearne) wrote: >> >>>There is, however, ample evidence that the practise of feeding >>>animal offal to the other members of the same species is what >>>caused the rapid spread of Mad Cow Disease throughout the >>>British beef industry. > >Originally, this disease was most prominent in sheep (mutton). The >greater market for mutton in the UK lead to the greater use of the >bone meals made from sheep. Bone meals made in the US have not used >sheep remains for some time (sorry, I forgot the dates). The use >of the bone meals spread the disease to other species (a common source >of minerals in the livestock industries). > >As I understand, the "Mad Cow Disease" is a very long term incubation, >and the disease vector itself (prion?) is capable of surviving the >use of an autoclave... > --Glenn Did you mean to say, "This could be very grim, but I neglected to review the last twelve issues of SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN". Warren http://www.borg.com/~warren
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Gregor Ronald
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:00
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:00
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qut@netcom.com (Be Good) wrote: >[I was handed this flyer by a black man in front of >Safeway five years ago. Is it true?] >[...] > Something else people should be aware of is >that much of the dog and cat food made in the U.S. >contains meat and bone meal made from the bodies of >cats and dogs killed at animal shelters. The >poison (sodium pentobarbitol) used to kill the >animals is still in the product when you feed it to >your pet. Paying high prices is no guarantee that >the pet food you buy is free of the poison. In >fact, most pet food manufacturers do not know the >sources of their meat byproducts. And it is legal >to use cats and dogs. I don't know about the US, but here in New Zealand it's much harder to get a new pet/animal food approved than it is for a human one. A friend of mine makes mineral supplement blocks for cattle, and has had several years of bureaucratic hassle, gets regular government inspections, etc. Another runs a restaurant, and can dream up a new menu item with no controls whatsoever. That may explain why a third friend still insists to this day that he once was served "chicken" in a Chinese restaurant that was cat... ============================== Gregor Ronald Christchurch, New Zealand 64-3-385-0577 ============================== "Skiing is like flying, driving, hiking, and surfing, all rolled into one. How can you NOT do that?" -Jerry Seinfeld
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Glenn S. Lyford
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:00
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:00
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In article <4ngdqa$ahr@nezsdc.fujitsu.co.nz>, derek@nezsdc.fujitsu.co.nz
says...
>There is, however, ample evidence that the practise of feeding
>animal offal to the other members of the same species is what
>caused the rapid spread of Mad Cow Disease throughout the
>British beef industry.
As I understand it, the by-product being fed is bone meal, and is
an inexpensive source of trace minerals and calcium. You can also
buy it yourself at any health food store. Species seems to be
irrelevant, as the meal is usually made from all the bones from all the
animals processed in the packing facility. There is some evidence
(sorry, no reference) that the disease actually started in sheep.
Someone mentioned a Scientific American article earlier, perhaps they
can repeat the citation?
Glenn "I think I'll get my calcium from rocks" Lyford
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Steve Barnard
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:00
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:00
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Glenn S. Lyford wrote: > > In article <4ngdqa$ahr@nezsdc.fujitsu.co.nz>, derek@nezsdc.fujitsu.co.nz > says... > >There is, however, ample evidence that the practise of feeding > >animal offal to the other members of the same species is what > >caused the rapid spread of Mad Cow Disease throughout the > >British beef industry. > > As I understand it, the by-product being fed is bone meal, and is > an inexpensive source of trace minerals and calcium. You can also > buy it yourself at any health food store. Species seems to be > irrelevant, as the meal is usually made from all the bones from all the > animals processed in the packing facility. There is some evidence > (sorry, no reference) that the disease actually started in sheep. > Someone mentioned a Scientific American article earlier, perhaps they > can repeat the citation? > > Glenn "I think I'll get my calcium from rocks" Lyford The leading theory about "mad cow" disease, which is in fact a widely accepted theory, is that it is caused by a "prion," which is a self-replicating protein molecule. This was once ridiculed as heresy in biochemical circles, but it's accepted now. These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive. They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in cannabilistic human societies. (This is sometimes called "laughing disease" because the victims are very happy and exuberant --- until they die.) There are two really bad characteristics of prions: (1) they have a very long latency, so it's hard to associate cause with effect, and (2) they are very tough. Nothing short of heating them to a quite high temperature will "kill" them (if they can be said to be alive at all). I wouldn't be at all surpised if prions are eventually determined to cause all sorts of mysterious diseases, especially neurological diseases such as MS, ALS, and Altsheimer's. Steve Barnard P.S. I'm just a layman in this area. Are there any experts out there who can comment?
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: michelle r. tribe
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
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Steve Barnard (steve@megafauna.com) wrote:
> These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive.
> They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also
> cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in
> cannabilistic human societies.
Science has has never, ever proven a cannabilistic human society to have
existed. There are theories and sketchy evidence, but nothing to prove it
"beyond a shadow of a doubt."
---
Michelle R. Tribe
http://chat.carleton.ca/~mrtribe
"There are times when you have
to choose between being human
and having good taste."
--Bertolt Brecht
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Ian A. York
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
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Note that I see no need to continue cross-posting this to seven or eight
groups and have set followups to rec.pets only.
In article <31A13661.6E0C@megafauna.com>,
Steve Barnard <steve@megafauna.com> wrote:
>
>The leading theory about "mad cow" disease, which is in fact a widely
>accepted theory, is that it is caused by a "prion," which is a
>self-replicating protein molecule. This was once ridiculed as heresy in
>biochemical circles, but it's accepted now.
"Ridiculed" is pretty strong. "Not widely accepted, but considered
plausible enough for further examination" would be closer.
>cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in
"Scrapie", not "scabies". The latter is a mite different.
>cannabilistic human societies. (This is sometimes called "laughing
No, only in some New Guinea tribes. It's being questioned as to the
societies in question (or for that matter, any society, ever) was
cannibalistic. There are other plausible and even probable methods by
which the prion could spread.
There are also many other human prion diseases.
>I wouldn't be at all surpised if prions are eventually determined to
>cause all sorts of mysterious diseases, especially neurological diseases
>such as MS, ALS, and Altsheimer's.
Possibly but unlikely. This has been looked at fairly closely and there
hasd been no convincing link found.
The following quick-n-dirty guide to prions has probably already been
seen and yawned over by many of you. Feel free to hit 'n' now.
-=-=-
There are many excellent web sites on prions:
http://www.kcc.com.msu.edu/CAI/Pathology/cns_infections
http://www.airtime.co.uk/bse/welcome.htm
http://www.nmia.com/~mdibble/prion.html
http://www.iah.bbsrc.ac.uk/institut/public/3wtse.htm
http://www.cowtown.org/nca4315.html
Wot's a prion? It's the cause of a number of animal diseases which have
in common a slow course, a lack of an immune response, and 'spongiform
encephalopathies" - the brain gets holes appearing in it so it looks
like a sponge under the microscope. Prions are apparently unique among
infectious thingies in that they're solely protein - there's no nucleic
acid (i.e. RNA and DNA) involved. The word was coined by Stan Prusiner
and it's short for "proteinaceous infectious" particle, which should
therefore be "proin" but that didn't sound so good so he changed it to
prion. (T).
There are a bunch of prion disease. The most common is a sheep disease
called "scrapie". Bovine and mink and a couple others get 'bovine (or
mink) spongiform ecephalopathies". In humans, there's Kuru, and there's
Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease, fatal familial insomnia,
Gerstmann-Straussler-Scheinker Syndrome, and some others that don't have
names as far as I can find.
They're all fatal.
Most importantly, prion protein is a normal component of normal cells.
All of you are happily churning out prion proteins by the billion right
now. Actually, you're churning out prion precursor protein - the normal
protein is innocuous (although its functiuon is unknown, it's presumably
required for normal cell function). When something changes the protein
to another form then it becomes Evil.
There are fundamentally three causes of prion protein changes. (1)
Spontaneous. No cause known. There may be a precipitating event or it
may be a truly random event. This is very rare - something like
1/1000000 or less - but is probably the most common cause of prion
diseases in humans. (2) Inherited mutations. Note that it is, for
example, fatal FAMILIAL insomnia. (3) Infection.
What seems to happen is that the prion protein can exist in two forms, but
that form 2 (the dangerous one) causes form 1 to convert to form 2. In
other words, a catalytic feedback reaction. Hence, the infectious nature.
The familial cases occur because there's a mutation that makes the protein
more likely to assume position 2. In fact, even spontaneous diseases are
infectious - that is, if someone has CJD from a spontaneous change, the
prion particles from that person are infectious (catalyze the formation of
type 2), even though she was not infected originally. If you see what I
mean.
For example, CJD may be sporadic (case 1), familial (case 2) or
iatrogenic (case 3).
Recently it was shown that yeast have an analagous process (although it's
not fatal in yeast) in which a normal yeast protein has two switch
positions and position 2 converts position 1 to position 2.
It's common for the prions from one species to be able to infect another
species, but it's not inevitable. Thus scrapie agent (from sheep) can
infect a number of lab rodents; but it's not very infectious at first, and
takes some acclimatization for it to become very infectious in that
species. Scrapie agent probably originally caused BSE (that's not
certain) and probably originated the mink encephalopathy as well. On the
other hand, scrapie has been around in sheep for a long time, and there's
never been any epidemiological evidence that scrapie agent would infect
humans. (And people have looked very hard for such a link.) This is one
reason it was originally believed that BSE was unlikely to infect humans.
One thing about prions is that they're incredibly hardy. You can't
destroy them with anything, including autoclaving. (Actually, autoclaving
will eventually destroy them, but it takes a long, long time.) They can
also be present in very high levels, so you can destroy 99% of them and
still be left with billions of infectious particles. This isn't entirely
unique in proteins - there are some other proteins which can be boiled and
autoclaved and still be functional. For example, the purification
protocol for the RNase A protein begins "boil a pancreas in sulpheric acid
..."
The infection process is poorly understood. In the lab animals infected
with scrapie agent, it's known that the particles have a blood phase,
collect in the spleen briefly, then infect the brain and start causing
gradual problems. The blood and spleen phase is less easily found in
some other cases, and apparently in BSE it's very difficult to show this
at all. In BSE essentially all the prions are found in the brain and
spinal cord.
And that about sums up the current knowledge. They're a bitch to study -
the process is slow, so you're looking at years for a single experiment
often, and until recently it was difficult to mimic the human processes in
lab rodents. Until recently, also, there wasn't a great deal of interest
in them - these are very rare sporadic human diseases, and until BSE and
the fear of spread to humans there was little funding for the work.
(Another argument against directed research?) Also people had to assume
that the first time you used the damn things your whole lab was thereafter
forever a scrapie lab, because you can't disinfect them.
--
Ian York (iayork@panix.com) <http://www.panix.com/~iayork/>
"-but as he was a York, I am rather inclined to suppose him a
very respectable Man." -Jane Austen, The History of England
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Miche
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
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In article <31A13661.6E0C@megafauna.com> Steve Barnard <steve@megafauna.com> writes: > These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive. > They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also > cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in > cannabilistic human societies. The sheep disease is actually called 'scrapie'. Scabies is an insect infestation of humans. The human disease referred to here is called kuru, and is contracted by eating the brain of an infected person. Miche ------------ michelle.campbell@stonebow.otago.ac.nz What I post is my opinion only. "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? She would have been the paintbrush." - Dawn French
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Steve Barnard
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
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Steve Barnard wrote: > > Glenn S. Lyford wrote: > > > > In article <4ngdqa$ahr@nezsdc.fujitsu.co.nz>, derek@nezsdc.fujitsu.co.nz > > says... > > >There is, however, ample evidence that the practise of feeding > > >animal offal to the other members of the same species is what > > >caused the rapid spread of Mad Cow Disease throughout the > > >British beef industry. > > > > As I understand it, the by-product being fed is bone meal, and is > > an inexpensive source of trace minerals and calcium. You can also > > buy it yourself at any health food store. Species seems to be > > irrelevant, as the meal is usually made from all the bones from all the > > animals processed in the packing facility. There is some evidence > > (sorry, no reference) that the disease actually started in sheep. > > Someone mentioned a Scientific American article earlier, perhaps they > > can repeat the citation? > > > > Glenn "I think I'll get my calcium from rocks" Lyford > > The leading theory about "mad cow" disease, which is in fact a widely > accepted theory, is that it is caused by a "prion," which is a > self-replicating protein molecule. This was once ridiculed as heresy in > biochemical circles, but it's accepted now. > > These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive. > They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also > cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in > cannabilistic human societies. (This is sometimes called "laughing > disease" because the victims are very happy and exuberant --- until they > die.) > > There are two really bad characteristics of prions: (1) they have a very > long latency, so it's hard to associate cause with effect, and (2) they > are very tough. Nothing short of heating them to a quite high > temperature will "kill" them (if they can be said to be alive at all). > > I wouldn't be at all surpised if prions are eventually determined to > cause all sorts of mysterious diseases, especially neurological diseases > such as MS, ALS, and Altsheimer's. > > Steve Barnard > > P.S. I'm just a layman in this area. Are there any experts out there > who can comment? Correction: That prion-caused disease in sheep is either "scrapies" ot "scapies." I believe that scabies is a relatively benign skin disease caused by mites. Steve Barnard
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Larry Bump
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
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Jeffrey Nelson / STILL 'AGIN <jlnelson@mole.uvm.edu> wrote: >> [I was handed this flyer by a black man in front of >> Safeway five years ago. Is it true?] >> Something else people should be aware of is >> that much of the dog and cat food made in the U.S. >> contains meat and bone meal made from the bodies of >> cats and dogs killed at animal shelters. >Well, heck no, it was a black man, right? Why did you bother to list skin >color, I wonder? Try alt.racist.residue next time for your crap post. I wonder why no one has accused the poster of sexism for mentioning that the provider of the information was a man? Just curious. This reflexive accusation mode gets a little old.
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Steve Barnard
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
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michelle r. tribe wrote: > > Steve Barnard (steve@megafauna.com) wrote: > > > These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive. > > They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also > > cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in > > cannabilistic human societies. > > Science has has never, ever proven a cannabilistic human society to have > existed. There are theories and sketchy evidence, but nothing to prove it > "beyond a shadow of a doubt." > > --- > Michelle R. Tribe > http://chat.carleton.ca/~mrtribe > > "There are times when you have > to choose between being human > and having good taste." > --Bertolt Brecht This is total baloney. Cannabilism is not uncommon in aboriginal societies. It's typically ritualistic. Sometimes people eat their dead relatives. Sometimes they eat people from other tribes killed in battle. It happens even today. The "laughing disease" was peculiar because it showed up mainly in women. It turns out that the men got the choice pieces (isn't that typical) while the women had to be content with things like viscera and brains. The brains are the tissue that carry the disease. Steve Barnard
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: John Pearson
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 00:00
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mrtribe@chat.carleton.ca (michelle r. tribe) writes:
>Steve Barnard (steve@megafauna.com) wrote:
>> These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive.
>> They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also
>> cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in
^^^^^^^
That's "scrapie".
>> cannabilistic human societies.
>Science has has never, ever proven a cannabilistic human society to have
>existed. There are theories and sketchy evidence, but nothing to prove it
>"beyond a shadow of a doubt."
I believe that Mr Barnard is referring to kuru, which is a prion disease
once found among some tribes from the New Guinea highlands, who practiced
ritual cannibalism (you know, eating a bit of grandpa to show respect).
You are, as far as I know, right that cannibalism as a way of collecting
your calories in the medium to long term is pretty much a myth.
While both scrapie and BSE are prion diseases (as are kuru and CJD), and
it was widely supposed that it had "crossed over" from sheep to cows,
it's worth noting that investigators have so far isolated some dozen or
so strains of scrapie, none of which match the prion causing BSE as far
as they can tell.
>---
>Michelle R. Tribe
>http://chat.carleton.ca/~mrtribe
John P.
"Once more, *all* phenomena are basically without existence, though you
cannot now say that they are *non-existent*." - Hsi Yun before P'ei Hsu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
john@huiac.apana.org.au |=--------=| Oblique Strategies by Eno & Schmidt
------------- Remove specifics and convert to ambiguities --------------
--
"Once more, *all* phenomena are basically without existence, though you
cannot now say that they are *non-existent*." - Hsi Yun before P'ei Hsu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
john@huiac.apana.org.au |=--------=| Oblique Strategies by Eno & Schmidt
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Jennifer S. Mullen
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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Steve Barnard (steve@megafauna.com) wrote: : This is total baloney. Cannabilism is not uncommon in aboriginal : societies. It's typically ritualistic. Sometimes people eat their dead : relatives. Sometimes they eat people from other tribes killed in : battle. It happens even today. : The "laughing disease" was peculiar because it showed up mainly in : women. It turns out that the men got the choice pieces (isn't that : typical) while the women had to be content with things like viscera and : brains. The brains are the tissue that carry the disease. Interesting. Do you have a cite for this? Followups redirected to alt.folklore.urban. -- Jennifer S. Mullen I do not want any advertisements in my redjen@psu.edu mailbox. I will not react nicely if I see http://cac.psu.edu/~jsm158/ them. If you are using this post to gather a list, please omit me. You have been told.
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Alan J Rosenthal
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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In alt.folklore.urban, Steve Barnard <steve@megafauna.com> writes: >elebourd@direct.ca wrote: >>Be Good wrote: >>>I was handed this flyer by a black man in front of >>>Safeway five years ago. Is it true? >> >>What does this man's racial status have to do with the validity of this >>information?? > >I wondered that at first, too, but don't be so touchy. Sometimes it's >good to add a little detail to a story, even if it's irrelevant. More interesting details would be his disposition, whether he seemed intelligent and reasoned or hysterical, whether he smiled, something actually about the occurrence. I suppose that race might be mentioned in a fairly full description of the event. But for that to be the sole description of the man seems unhealthily focused on race. Alan "wilkommen, bienvenue, welcome" Rosenthal -- AFU .sig of the day: sorry joem@johnbrown.co.uk, e-mail from here to you bounces
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Jon Blakesley
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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glyford@us1.channel1.com (Glenn S. Lyford) wrote: >In article <4ngdqa$ahr@nezsdc.fujitsu.co.nz>, derek@nezsdc.fujitsu.co.nz >says... >>There is, however, ample evidence that the practise of feeding >>animal offal to the other members of the same species is what >>caused the rapid spread of Mad Cow Disease throughout the >>British beef industry. >As I understand it, the by-product being fed is bone meal, and is >an inexpensive source of trace minerals and calcium. You can also The by-product may contain bone meal, but it also contains spinal cord and, possibly, brain; which is where the problem arises.
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Daan Sandee
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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In article <4ntcsq$r9t@celebrian.otago.ac.nz>, michelle.campbell@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Miche) writes: |> In article <31A13661.6E0C@megafauna.com> |> Steve Barnard <steve@megafauna.com> writes: |> |> > These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive. |> > They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also |> > cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in |> > cannabilistic human societies. |> |> The sheep disease is actually called 'scrapie'. Scabies is an insect |> infestation of humans. Well, I don't want to be excessively picky, but scabies (whether in humans or other animals) is caused by mites, which aren't insects - they're arachnids. Different class of arthropods. Daan Sandee sandee@think.com Burlington, MA
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Steve Barnard
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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Jennifer S. Mullen wrote: > > Steve Barnard (steve@megafauna.com) wrote: > > : This is total baloney. Cannabilism is not uncommon in aboriginal > : societies. It's typically ritualistic. Sometimes people eat their dead > : relatives. Sometimes they eat people from other tribes killed in > : battle. It happens even today. > : The "laughing disease" was peculiar because it showed up mainly in > : women. It turns out that the men got the choice pieces (isn't that > : typical) while the women had to be content with things like viscera and > : brains. The brains are the tissue that carry the disease. > > Interesting. Do you have a cite for this? > > Followups redirected to alt.folklore.urban. > > -- > Jennifer S. Mullen I do not want any advertisements in my > redjen@psu.edu mailbox. I will not react nicely if I see > http://cac.psu.edu/~jsm158/ them. If you are using this post to gather a > list, please omit me. You have been told. I don't have a cite. I heard it on National Public Radio in an interview with an authority on prion diseases. He didn't sound like a nut to me, and NPR is not exactly Rush Limbaugh. Maybe I'll contact NPR to find out who he was and what his credentials are. Steve Barnard P.S. This topic is pretty irrelevant to many of these cross-posted newsgroups. I haven't seen any complaints yet, so maybe people are interested. Then again, maybe they aren't.
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: buckstop
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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Miche wrote: > The human disease referred to here is called kuru, and is contracted > by eating the brain of an infected person. This was the theory I was taught many years ago, and it may indeed be true. It's certainly found in many current medical texts. However, I should point out that back in the second year of medical school (BUSM), they told us that epidemiological studies showed that while the brains were eaten exclusively by men (it was part of a funereal ritual, not a dietary supplement), most of the disease cases occurred in women. It was believed that the prion was spread through abrasions or open wounds during 'preparation' of the brain for eating, rather than through eating the (cooked) brain. I can't recall having heard this from any other source, but I gotta trust my alma mater. It certainly opens the prospect that prions spread by contact with non-intact skin. (Fuel for discussion?) - Soumen Nandy snandy@nandy.com
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Ian A. York
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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In article <Drs1pq.5Dq@huiac.apana.org.au>,
John Pearson <john@huiac.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
>You are, as far as I know, right that cannibalism as a way of collecting
>your calories in the medium to long term is pretty much a myth.
Even as a ritual as you describe it, it may well be a myth.
>it's worth noting that investigators have so far isolated some dozen or
>so strains of scrapie, none of which match the prion causing BSE as far
>as they can tell.
Not really relevant, because the method of transmission presumes that the
infecting agent (let's say, for the sake of argument, that it's a sheep
prion misconformed into the screapie conformation which has entered a
cow) induces a conformational change of the new prions - i.e. the sheep
scrapie prion in the cow would cause the cow prion precursor protein to
adopt the abnormal (BSE) conformation. Thus any prions that were
isolated out of the cow would truly be bovine prions and would not match
the scrapie prions; but that would not mean that the initiating cause was
not scrapie.
The reason for suspecting that the scrapie protein did not initiate th
BSE epidemic is simpler than that - it's that in no case has scrapie
protein induced any disease in cattle on oral feeding. I.e. if you're
wondering whether you may have caused BSE by grinding up a sheep and
feeding it to cattle, try grinding up more sheep and feeding it to more
cattle and see what happens.
As you note, there are many scrapie strains, and though none tested has
caused BSE there are some that have not (to my knowledge) been tested.
Also, you could suggest that a particular strain of cattle may have been
more susceptible and acted as the intermediary - there are all kinds of
possible explanations, but there are no solid answers yet.
Ian "followups" York
--
Ian York (iayork@panix.com) <http://www.panix.com/~iayork/>
"-but as he was a York, I am rather inclined to suppose him a
very respectable Man." -Jane Austen, The History of England
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Ron Ackermann
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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>> somebody wrote:
>>
>> : women. It turns out that the men got the choice pieces (isn't that
>> : typical) while the women had to be content with things like viscera and
>> : brains. The brains are the tissue that carry the disease.
>>
>> somebody else wrote:
>>
>> Interesting. Do you have a cite for this?
check http://www.airtime.co.uk/bse/tse.htm for more info on this,
specifically the section on Kuru.
--
Ron Ackermann DoD # 0462 GWTA LIFE MEMBER # 484
ackrmnn@wolfenet.com ackerman@bcstec.ca.boeing.com
Poverty Bay Wings GWTA - http://www.prostar.com/web/pbwings/
RTE,ETR
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Betsy Hart
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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>Steve Barnard (steve@megafauna.com) wrote: > >> These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive. >> They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also >> cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in >> cannabilistic human societies. I think you're thinking of the neurologic disease "scrapie", not scabies, which is a skin parasite. Scrapie makes sheep feel very itchy as well, so they rub their wool and eventually their skin off, but this is from nerves malfunctioning, not anything on their skin. --Betsy
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Steve Barnard
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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michelle r. tribe wrote: > > Steve Barnard (steve@megafauna.com) wrote: > > > These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive. > > They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also > > cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in > > cannabilistic human societies. > > Science has has never, ever proven a cannabilistic human society to have > existed. There are theories and sketchy evidence, but nothing to prove it > "beyond a shadow of a doubt." > > --- > Michelle R. Tribe > http://chat.carleton.ca/~mrtribe > > "There are times when you have > to choose between being human > and having good taste." > --Bertolt Brecht For the life of me I don't know what this topic has to do with most of the cross-posted newsgroups, but no one is complaining yet, so here goes. I don't have access to primary anthopological sources, so I can't give any authoritative cites for contemporary cannibalism (yet). I can, however, cite a primary source for an important and well-known historical case: the Aztec civilization encountered by the Spanish Conquistadors. Bernardino de Sahagun, whom Marvin Harris calls "the most fundamental and scrupulously honest source on Aztec religion, writes in the Genreal History of the Things of New Spain: "After having torn their hearts from them and poured the blood into a gourd vessel, which the master of the slain man himself received, they started the body rolling down the pyramid steps. It came to rest upon a small square below. There some old men, whom they called Quaquacuitlan, laid hold of it and carried it to their tribal temple, where they dismembered it and divided it up in order to eat it." Another primary source, Diego Duran, writes: "Once the heart had been wrenched out it was offered to the sun and blood sprinkled toward the solar diety. Initiating the descent of the sun in the west the corpse was toppled down the steps of the pyramid. After the sacrifice the warriors celebrated a great feast with much dancing, ceremonial, and cannibaism." Now you might suppose that the Spanish were so eager to say the worst of the Aztecs that they made up the cannibalism stuff. However, the Aztecs practiced ritual human sacrifice on such a massive scale -- a fact that is undisputed -- that the Spanish hardly had any reason to color their stories. Steve Barnard
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Steve Barnard
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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Betsy Hart wrote: > > >Steve Barnard (steve@megafauna.com) wrote: > > > >> These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive. > >> They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also > >> cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in > >> cannabilistic human societies. > > I think you're thinking of the neurologic disease "scrapie", not > scabies, which is a skin parasite. Scrapie makes sheep feel very itchy > as well, so they rub their wool and eventually their skin off, but this > is from nerves malfunctioning, not anything on their skin. > > --Betsy Boy, do I wish I hadn't accidently written "scabies." I regreted it as soon as my finger hit the mouse button. I think I got the real name wrong in my correction, too. Sigh. Steve Barnard
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Steve Barnard
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:00
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Ron Ackermann wrote: > > >> somebody wrote: > >> > >> : women. It turns out that the men got the choice pieces (isn't that > >> : typical) while the women had to be content with things like viscera and > >> : brains. The brains are the tissue that carry the disease. > >> > >> somebody else wrote: > >> > >> Interesting. Do you have a cite for this? > > check http://www.airtime.co.uk/bse/tse.htm for more info on this, > specifically the section on Kuru. > > -- > Ron Ackermann DoD # 0462 GWTA LIFE MEMBER # 484 > ackrmnn@wolfenet.com ackerman@bcstec.ca.boeing.com > Poverty Bay Wings GWTA - http://www.prostar.com/web/pbwings/ > RTE,ETR I looked at the web page and I've appended the section on Kuru to this post, for those of you who don't have browsers or don't have the time. I think Jennifer S. Mullen owes me a public apology. Steve Barnard Kuru is a condition of the Fore tribe of the Okapa district of the Eastern Highland in Papua New Guinea, in which a practice of ritual cannibalism of fellow tribesmen took place until around 1956. The disease affected mainly adult woment and children of both sexes to give an annual disease specific mortality of approximately 3%. Most deaths of women occured through this disease and some men who died from this disease were thought to have contracted it when young. Kuru is caught by eating infected tissue. The brain of the dead tribal member was eaten by women and children and the muscle tissue by men. The possibility that has also transmitted the disease to men but with a lower dose of infective agent and, hence, a longer incubation period has not been ruled out. The cohort of children born since 1956 has not suffered greatly from kuru. Clinically the disease is of a progressive cerebellar ataxia leading to uncoodinated movements, neurological weakness, palsies, and decay in brain cortical function. Most patients dying of kuru are not demented, and this is a major clinical difference between kuru and CJD. Patients with a longer incubation period appear to have a slower progression of symptions, but generally death from inter current infection or medullary involvement takes place with an average clinical period of 12 months.
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Ian A. York
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00
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In article <31A394A8.142D@megafauna.com>,
Steve Barnard <steve@megafauna.com> wrote:
>
>For the life of me I don't know what this topic has to do with most of
>the cross-posted newsgroups, but no one is complaining yet, so here
>goes.
Followups set to alt.folklore.urban, where this is on-topic.
You cite Sahagun for a second-hand account of Aztec cannibalism and Duran
with a non-eyewitness account (i.e. these are what was told to them by
others); and Harris as approving of these accounts. Here's what I have
on this.
Arens (see my book review elsewhere on AFU) spends nearly 30 pages on the
Aztecs. Athough he has no dispute with the wide-spread human sacrifice
practiced by the Aztecs, he questions whether there was ever cannibalism
involved. I won't go into all of his arguments, but he's reviewed the
letters of Cortez, in which there are no firsthand observations of
cannibalism; the reports of Gorama, Cortez's personal secretary - again,
no firsthand accounts; the reports of Alvarado, ditto; the work of Bernal
Diaz, another of Corte's soldiers, and finds that again there are no
eyewitness accounts (anyone spot a trend here?). These represent the
earliest contacts with the Aztecs.
Arens:
In order to understand how the Aztecs were converted into the classic
man-eaters they are today, it is only necessary to review the literary
works of those conquistadors who penned their memoirs later in life.
By then, these were different men, living in different times. The
consequences of the Conquest were becoming a matter of debate in the
capitals of Europe. The Spaniards had by then won the war, but the
rationale for conquest and the character of colonial rule were lively
issues. Thus Francisco de Aguilar, one of Cortes's major lieutenants,
wrote more than fifty years after his return to Spain that the Aztecs
captives were eaten as a "very tender delicacy" (1963: 164). The
'Anonymous Conquistador', whose belated account may or may not be
authentic, but either way is a refelction of the times, concludes his
essay on the Conquest with a final acontextual paragraph whic states
that, in addition to being sodomites and excessive drinkers, the Aztecs
went to war for the sake of human food ...
Arens then moves on to the next group of commentators, the Spanish priests
and missionaries. "The transformation of the Aztecs from civilized to
barbaric was accomplished by the deft intellectual management of these
friars. ... Strangely enough, the very same individuals are today used as
reliable sources for pre-contact Aztec culture, even though no group of
specialists ever had a better reason or a stronger desire to misinterpret
and distort the material."
Arens reviews the collected works of Duran, a Dominican priest in the 16th
century. Guess what? "His accounts assume the prior existance of Aztec
cannibalism as a correlative of human sacrifice. ... Despite these
comments, Duran never observed an instance of Aztec cannibalism, since the
presumed custom had been abolished fifty years before."
Next there's Fray Bernardo de Sahagun, a contemporary of Duran who wrote a
13-volume account of Aztec history and culture and the Conquest. " ...it
is surprising, in light of the reliance placed on this collection, that
there is little reference to cannibalism per se. ... these are not
eyewitness accounts."
Arens moves on to modern scholars: Harner (1977) (of whom Arens says "...
in a singular inversion of the scholarly method, the lack of documentation
is actually offered as evidence for the existatnce of a custom. Although
a novel procedure, the technique is not entirely convincing."), Harris
(1977) (who provided no new documentation), Montellano (1978) (who shot
down Harner), Price (1978) (who claimed to be "in possession of a
still-secret but nonetheless 'more powerful explanatory model' to explain
Aztec cannibalism"), and many more.
To sum up, Arens finds that the primary sources do not in any credible
case mention eyewitness accounts of cannibalism, and secondary sources
all rely on the friend-of-an-explorer tales as indisputably genuine.
--
Ian York (iayork@panix.com) <http://www.panix.com/~iayork/>
"-but as he was a York, I am rather inclined to suppose him a
very respectable Man." -Jane Austen, The History of England
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Miche
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00
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In article <31A263B6.17F7@megafauna.com> Steve Barnard <steve@megafauna.com> writes: > This is total baloney. Cannabilism is not uncommon in aboriginal > societies. It's typically ritualistic. Sometimes people eat their dead > relatives. Sometimes they eat people from other tribes killed in > battle. It happens even today. Cite? Miche ------------ michelle.campbell@stonebow.otago.ac.nz What I post is my opinion only. "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? She would have been the paintbrush." - Dawn French
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Miche
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00
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In article <4nvbr2$2q8@bone.think.com> sandee@Think.COM (Daan Sandee) writes: > In article <4ntcsq$r9t@celebrian.otago.ac.nz>, michelle.campbell@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Miche) writes: > |> In article <31A13661.6E0C@megafauna.com> > |> Steve Barnard <steve@megafauna.com> writes: > |> > |> > These prions are disease organisms that can hardly be said to be alive. > |> > They aren't even as advanced as viruses, not by a long shot. They also > |> > cause "scabies" in sheep and are known to cause a brain disease in > |> > cannabilistic human societies. > |> > |> The sheep disease is actually called 'scrapie'. Scabies is an insect > |> infestation of humans. > > Well, I don't want to be excessively picky, but scabies (whether in > humans or other animals) is caused by mites, which aren't insects - > they're arachnids. Different class of arthropods. I stand corrected. Miche ------------ michelle.campbell@stonebow.otago.ac.nz What I post is my opinion only. "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? She would have been the paintbrush." - Dawn French
Re: Cannibalism, Kuru, and Arens
Author: Steve Barnard
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00
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Ian A. York wrote:
>
> Arens (see my book review elsewhere on AFU) spends nearly 30 pages on the
> Aztecs. Athough he has no dispute with the wide-spread human sacrifice
> practiced by the Aztecs, he questions whether there was ever cannibalism
> involved. I won't go into all of his arguments,
[etc]
Ian,
It seems that Arens' book isn't quite the Bible of anthropology that you
make it out to be. I've included just a couple of recent posts from
sci.anthropology that show what some people in that community think of
it. I haven't read the book, but my impression from these posts (and
from the way you describe it) is that Arens has a political agenda.
Sadly, this is common in anthropology, and frequently leads to very poor
scholarship. I'll cite as an example Margaret Mead's theories of Samoan
sexual customs, which are now thoroughly discredited. The two posts I
include below were in response to someone's endorsement of Arens.
There is also, of course, the piece about Kuru in the web page
http://www.airtime.co.uk/bse/tse.htm (thanks to Ron Ackermann). This
confirms my story about "laughing disease." (If you believe the Web
page, that is. It looked very authentic to me.)
I'm tired of this discussion, so I won't be participating any longer. I
suggest that it be taken to sci.anthropology, where there seem to be
some people who actually know what they're talking about.
Steve Barnard
Posts from sci.anthropolgy follow:
***********************************************************************
In article <319A2924.3754@dur.ac.uk>, Trish Carter
<p.a.carter@dur.ac.uk> writes:
|> Read Arens: The Man-Eating Myth. Then stop asking silly questions
According to marvin harris, in _good to eat_, arens is pretty silly
himself. Harris shows that many of the claims used by arens to show that
people don't _really_ eat people are blatently false, as discussed in
this very forum ad nauseum not too long ago.
Clearly there are anthropologists who are very anxious to
debunk/discredit
the history of human cannibalism, and I'm sure they have convinced
themselves that they have very good reasons for doing so. The facts
don't seem to back them up, however.
The western love for the myth of the Noble Savage re-emerges under the
guise of progressive/post-modern cultural relativism; delightfully
quaint, actually.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Disclaimer claims dat de claims claimed in dis are de claims of meself,
me, and me alone, so sue us god. I won't tell Bill & Dave if you won't.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---- Gerold Firl @ ..hplabs!hp-sdd!geroldf
***********************************************************************
>In article <319A2924.3754@dur.ac.uk>, Trish Carter <p.a.carter@dur.ac.uk> writes:
>
>|> Read Arens: The Man-Eating Myth. Then stop asking silly questions
I was taught Arens' book as the first thing in my undergraduate
Anthropology
degree, and was impressed by the reasoning to the point where I was
mouthing off left right and centre about how there was no canibalism and
how nasty old Europe was for believing the rumours. Now I feel a bit
foolish.
Arens is good to a point, ie his idea that cannibalism is easy to accuse
the "other" of, however I think he takes it to a bit of an extreme to
say
that there has been no cannibalism ever. Accounts by Aztecs about their
own
cannibalsitic rituals are difficult to refute. I've also heard rumours
that
Arens was pretty selective about the pictures in his book, choosing only
those
that had unidentifiable bits of flesh on them, and not the ones with
heads
and hands.
It is quite an ethnocentric thing to assume that people from other
countries
are the _same_ as us, as well as different. Assumptions should be
avoided.
Duncan Drury
Anthropology II
University College London
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Martin Gilbert
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00
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Jeffrey Nelson / STILL 'AGIN <jlnelson@mole.uvm.edu> wrote:
>> [I was handed this flyer by a black man in front of
>> Safeway five years ago. Is it true?]
>> Something else people should be aware of is
>> that much of the dog and cat food made in the U.S.
>> contains meat and bone meal made from the bodies of
>> cats and dogs killed at animal shelters.
>
>Well, heck no, it was a black man, right? Why did you bother to list skin
>color, I wonder? Try alt.racist.residue next time for your crap post.
So, if a man is black what do you call him? Why aren't
you flaming for the specification of sex as well? For
that matter he also mentioned "black" and "Safeway" in the
same sentence - blatant!!!! What a sexist racist
homophobic felinobashing canine-hating neo-pinko-fascist!!!!
!!!!!
Martin "to me 'ground up animal shelter animals
are in pet food' sounds the stuff of urban
legend; just needs a punchline really" Gilbert
[posted and mailed]
--
Re: Cannibalism, Kuru, and Arens
Author: Helge Moulding
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:00
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:00
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Steve Barnard wrote, : It seems that Arens' book isn't quite the Bible of anthropology [... quoting himself? ...] : According to marvin harris, in _good to eat_, arens is pretty silly This has got to be a joke, right? Use Harris as a source to debunk Arens? Harris? "Pigs, Wars, and Witches" Harris? Anthropology is still a few steps removed from science, as long as guys like Harris hold sway without serious challenge. Harris does not have the ammunition to shoot down Arens's substantive claims, to wit, that there is no voracious evidence of Aztec cannibalism. There are several examples of human ritualized cannibalism. This is distinct from "get out the good china, we're having Harry for dinner" cannibalism. Typically, a slain enemy or an honored dead relative will "donate" their essence to posterity by having a bit of the heart or brain (hence kuru) eaten. Harris takes the existence of ritual cannibalism and turns it into a nutritional supplement. Harris is off his rocker. Note that for the purposes of AFU a distinction is being made between four forms of cannibalism: 1) Raving lunacy (eg Dahmer) 2) Extreme conditions (Donner party) 3) Ritual behavior (you are what you eat) 4) Diet (light meat or dark?) 1 through 3 are documented. 4 is not. -- Helge "Eat your heart out!" Moulding hsm@slc.unisys.com Just another guy http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1401/ with a weird name
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Miche
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:00
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:00
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In article <31A37217.188F@nandy.com> buckstop@nandy.com writes: > Miche wrote: > > > The human disease referred to here is called kuru, and is contracted > > by eating the brain of an infected person. > > This was the theory I was taught many years ago, and it may > indeed be true. It's certainly found in many current medical texts. > > However, I should point out that back in the second year of > medical school (BUSM), they told us that epidemiological studies > showed that while the brains were eaten exclusively by men (it was > part of a funereal ritual, not a dietary supplement), most of the > disease cases occurred in women. It was believed that the prion was > spread through abrasions or open wounds during 'preparation' of the > brain for eating, rather than through eating the (cooked) brain. > > I can't recall having heard this from any other source, but > I gotta trust my alma mater. It certainly opens the prospect that > prions spread by contact with non-intact skin. (Fuel for discussion?) I stand corrected. Miche ------------ michelle.campbell@stonebow.otago.ac.nz What I post is my opinion only. "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? She would have been the paintbrush." - Dawn French
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Larry Bump
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:00
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:00
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Jeffrey Nelson / STILL 'AGIN <jlnelson@mole.uvm.edu> wrote: >> [I was handed this flyer by a black man in front of >> Safeway five years ago. Is it true?] >> Something else people should be aware of is >> that much of the dog and cat food made in the U.S. >> contains meat and bone meal made from the bodies of >> cats and dogs killed at animal shelters. >Well, heck no, it was a black man, right? Why did you bother to list skin >color, I wonder? Try alt.racist.residue next time for your crap post. I wonder why no one has accused the poster of sexism for mentioning that the provider of the information was a man? Just curious. This reflexive accusation mode gets a little old.
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Shane Baker
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:00
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:00
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Gidday If preparing to get involved in this thread, please remove aus.pets from your list of newsgroups first. TIA Shane _______________________________________________________________ Shane Baker - sbaker@pcug.org.au Read aus.pets - for an Aussie perspective on pet ownership Australian Dog Page: http://www.pcug.org.au/~sbaker/dogs.htm Canberra - Australia's National Capital.
Re: Cannibalism, Kuru, and Arens
Author: Shane Baker
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:00
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:00
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Gidday This has NOTHING to do with aus.pets. Please remove it from the spam list. Shane _______________________________________________________________ Shane Baker - sbaker@pcug.org.au Read aus.pets - for an Aussie perspective on pet ownership Australian Dog Page: http://www.pcug.org.au/~sbaker/dogs.htm Canberra - Australia's National Capital.
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Jay R. Ashworth
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 00:00
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 00:00
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Miche (michelle.campbell@stonebow.otago.ac.nz) wrote: : > Well, I don't want to be excessively picky, but scabies (whether in : > humans or other animals) is caused by mites, which aren't insects - : > they're arachnids. Different class of arthropods. : I stand corrected. You post standing up? Cheers, -- jr 'that must make the RSI even worse...' a -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us Member of the Technical Staff The Suncoast Freenet Tampa Bay, Florida +1 813 790 7592
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: JoAnne Schmitz
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 00:00
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 00:00
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g_rona00@tpnet.co.nz (Gregor Ronald) wrote: >I don't know about the US, but here in New Zealand it's much harder to >get a new pet/animal food approved than it is for a human one. A >friend of mine makes mineral supplement blocks for cattle, and has had >several years of bureaucratic hassle, gets regular government >inspections, etc. Another runs a restaurant, and can dream up a new >menu item with no controls whatsoever. But the restaurant owner isn't selling a mineral supplement for people, or baby formula. Adults are supposed to be able to decide for themselves what variety of foods to eat for a balanced and nutritious diet for themselves; that's different from feeding a third party, whether it's a pet or a baby, who can't direct their own intake. >That may explain why a third friend still insists to this day that he >once was served "chicken" in a Chinese restaurant that was cat... And he knows this because? Cites, please, this has been covered and, while you can eat cat in Hong Kong, NZ is probably another story. And I would expect in NZ, as in the US, the things that go into the food that is on the menu item dreamed up by the restaurateur will have to individually be wholesome. You wouldn't be allowed to serve battery acid cocktails. JoAnne "though Pride of Baltimore rum is close to it" Schmitz ----------------------------------------------------------- There are emergency contraception pills that you can take after you have had unprotected sex. They work up to three days after intercourse. You don't have to wait to be sure you're pregnant and then have an abortion. For more information you can call 1-800-584-9911. Or check the web site http://opr.princeton.edu/ec/ec.html. -----------------------------------------------------------
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Charles Wm. Dimmick
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 00:00
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 00:00
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Jay R. Ashworth wrote: > > Miche (michelle.campbell@stonebow.otago.ac.nz) wrote: > : I stand corrected. > > You post standing up? > Something is backwards here. I thought men posted standing up and women posted sitting down. Charles Wm. Dimmick
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Miche
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:00
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:00
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In article <4oa56b$i23@mother.usf.edu> jra@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us (Jay R. Ashworth) writes: > Miche (michelle.campbell@stonebow.otago.ac.nz) wrote: > : > Well, I don't want to be excessively picky, but scabies (whether in > : > humans or other animals) is caused by mites, which aren't insects - > : > they're arachnids. Different class of arthropods. > : I stand corrected. > > You post standing up? OK, I sit corrected, but on many seats I'm the same height standing or sitting (4' 11") so it doesn't make much difference. Miche "I *am* standing up" Campbell ------------ michelle.campbell@stonebow.otago.ac.nz What I post is my opinion only. "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? She would have been the paintbrush." - Dawn French
Re: Euthanized pets being ground into pet food?
Author: Patrick
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 00:00
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 00:00
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Warn everyone, the oceans are dying, Soylent Green is puppies, arrrggggggggg. Chuck
ZIPCALL (ZIPNET.NET) CENSORS USENET
Author: CENSORSHIP IS WRONG
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 00:00
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 00:00
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ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G***** *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN G*****
Re: ZIPCALL (ZIPNET.NET) CENSORS USENET
Author: Jennifer S. Mullen
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:00
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CENSORSHIP IS WRONG!!! ("!WARNING!"@ZIPCALL.CENSORS.USENET.NET) wrote:
: *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN
: ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL
: CENSORS USENET...
Well, the collective readers of rec.pets, afu, aus.pets, rec.pets.cats,
rec.pets.dogs and rec.pets.misc certainly are pissed off by this bit of
news, mainly because it just goes to show that zipcall didn't censor you
fast enough.
Followups out, postmaster home.
--
Jennifer S. Mullen I do not want any advertisements in my
redjen@psu.edu mailbox. I will not react nicely if I see
http://cac.psu.edu/~jsm158/ them. If you are using this post to gather a
list, please omit me. You have been told.
Re: ZIPCALL (ZIPNET.NET) CENSORS USENET
Author: Steve Barnard
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:00
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:00
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CENSORSHIP IS WRONG!!! ("!WARNING!"@ZIPCALL.CENSORS.USENET.NET) wrote:
> : *****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***WARNIN
> : ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL CENSORS USENET... ZIPCALL
> : CENSORS USENET...
>
> Well, the collective readers of rec.pets, afu, aus.pets, rec.pets.cats,
> rec.pets.dogs and rec.pets.misc certainly are pissed off by this bit of
> news, mainly because it just goes to show that zipcall didn't censor you
> fast enough.
>
> Followups out, postmaster home.
> --
> Jennifer S. Mullen I do not want any advertisements in my
> redjen@psu.edu mailbox. I will not react nicely if I see
> http://cac.psu.edu/~jsm158/ them. If you are using this post to gather a
> list, please omit me. You have been told.
I already contacted the postmaster and, in his words, "This fool is
history."
Responsible Internet domains want to hear about these obnoxious spams,
so don't hesitate to complain.
Steve Barnard
Re: ALL THINGS HERRIOT:JAMES HERRIOT AND HIS PEACEABLE KINGDOM
Author: Sanford Sternlicht
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 00:00
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 00:00
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I would like to thank all the rec. pet. readers and James Herriot fans who have read and commented on my new book: ALL THINGS HERRIOT: JAMES HERRIOT AND HIS PEACEABLE KINGDOM (Syracuse U. Press). As a non-fiction writer, I find reader response especially useful for new work. Sanford Sternlicht English Department Syracuse University Syracuse NY 13244 USA svsternl@mailbox.syr.edu
Re: ALL THINGS HERRIOT:JAMES HERRIOT AND HIS PEACEABLE KINGDOM
Author: Sanford Sternlicht
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 00:00
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 00:00
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I would like to thank all the rec. pet. readers and James Herriot fans who have read and commented on my new book: ALL THINGS HERRIOT: JAMES HERRIOT AND HIS PEACEABLE KINGDOM (Syracuse U. Press). As a non-fiction writer, I find reader response especially useful for new work. Sanford Sternlicht English Department Syracuse University Syracuse NY 13244 USA svsternl@mailbox.syr.edu
Re: ALL THINGS HERRIOT:JAMES HERRIOT AND HIS PEACEABLE KINGDOM
Author: Sanford Sternlicht
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 00:00
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 00:00
12 lines
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I would like to thank all the rec. pet. readers and James Herriot fans who have read and commented on my new book: ALL THINGS HERRIOT: JAMES HERRIOT AND HIS PEACEABLE KINGDOM (Syracuse U. Press). As a non-fiction writer, I find reader response especially useful for new work. Sanford Sternlicht English Department Syracuse University Syracuse NY 13244 USA svsternl@mailbox.syr.edu
Re: ALL THINGS HERRIOT:JAMES HERRIOT AND HIS PEACEABLE KINGDOM
Author: Martin Heinz
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:00
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:00
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Hopefully thinking before posting before thinking, Sanford Sternlicht wrote: : I would like to thank all the rec. pet. readers and James Herriot fans : who have read and commented on my new book: ALL THINGS HERRIOT: JAMES : HERRIOT AND HIS PEACEABLE KINGDOM (Syracuse U. Press). I might be out of the loop on this one, but here's a game for you: Which newsfroup does NOT belong in this list: rec.pets alt.folklore.urban aus.pets rec.pets.cats rec.pets.dogs rec.pets.misc Martin "rec.pets.gerbils" Heinz -- Martin Heinz * "...mild-geek-by-day-but-fucking- heinz@math.utexas.edu * offal-eating-shithead-by-night.." http://www.ma.utexas.edu/users/heinz * -- Harry Teasley
Re: ALL THINGS...
Author: Madeleine Page
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:00
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:00
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Sanford Sternlicht (svsternl@mailbox.syr.edu) wrote a rather disingenuous post thanking people, including alt.folklore.urban readers, for commenting on his book. He managed to mention the book's title as the Subject: line, and again in the body of his message. He managed to post the damned article three times. He signed off: : Sanford Sternlicht : English Department : Syracuse University : Syracuse NY 13244 USA : svsternl@mailbox.syr.edu From his post we can conclude that (a) he doesn't know about the McQuarry limit on .sigs (b) he doesn't know diddly about selecting appropriate newsgroups for his posts (c) he doesn't know how to post to USENET or has been eating vast quantities of cucumbers and (d) he is ignorant or indifferent to the norm of not advertising on newsgroups. Madeleine "followups" Page --
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