🚀 go-pugleaf

dmark@acsu.buffalo.edu (David Mark) wrote:

>I have a question.  I finally managed to find a French dictionary 
>in a store over here-- not a French-English dictionary, but a 
>French-French dictionary, words and their meanings.  I was surprised to 
>find <<etang>> defined as:
>
>etendue d'eau moins vaste et moins profunde qu'un lac
>
>(yes, I realize that the initial 'e's in etang and etendue have accents 
>over them...)
>
>... "extent of water smaller and less deep than a lake"
>
>very much like the definition of "pond" in English.
>
>Anyway, my question is how to explain "Etang de Berre", "Etang de Vaccares", 
>et tout les autres etangs grandes de Languedoc??  These are actually much
>larger than typical lakes in France, so they would seem to contradict the
>definitions.
>
>So...
>Is the above dictionary definition "wrong"?

An etang IS a pond, but the dictionnaire Bordas adds, "Certaines
lagunes sont aussi appelees etangs (par ex. les etangs qui borde la
cote du Languedoc." So there you are.

I see that the key is the etymology: the word is cognate with
"stagnant". So the use of the word for a lagoon as well as a pond
seems appropriate.

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On 24 Jan 1998 19:44:34 GMT, dmark@acsu.buffalo.edu (David Mark)
wrote:

Hi,
>... "extent of water smaller and less deep than a lake"
>
>very much like the definition of "pond" in English.
in generally I would say that ist the right definition! etang = pond
>Anyway, my question is how to explain "Etang de Berre", "Etang de Vaccares", 
>et tout les autres etangs grandes de Languedoc??  These are actually much
>larger than typical lakes in France, so they would seem to contradict the
>definitions.
The problem is that there exist proper names in French. They named
these lakes (?) "Etang de Berre", "Etang de Vaccares" ... I think the
problem is that it's difficult to applicate scientific definitions on
cultural names.

Bye
	Alex
************************************* 
Alexander Loew
alexander.loew@stud.uni-muenchen.de

"Ein Spezialist ist jemand, der von immer weniger
immer mehr wei�, bis er alles von nichts wei�.
Ein Generalist ist jemand, der von immer mehr
immer weniger wei�, bis er nichts von allem wei�."

On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:44:09 GMT, gusty@clark.net (Harlan Messinger)
wrote:

>dmark@acsu.buffalo.edu (David Mark) wrote:
>
>>I have a question.  I finally managed to find a French dictionary 
>>in a store over here-- not a French-English dictionary, but a 
>>French-French dictionary, words and their meanings.  I was surprised to 
>>find <<etang>> defined as:
>>
>>etendue d'eau moins vaste et moins profunde qu'un lac
>>
>>(yes, I realize that the initial 'e's in etang and etendue have accents 
>>over them...)
>>
>>... "extent of water smaller and less deep than a lake"
>>
>>very much like the definition of "pond" in English.
>>
>>Anyway, my question is how to explain "Etang de Berre", "Etang de Vaccares", 
>>et tout les autres etangs grandes de Languedoc??  These are actually much
>>larger than typical lakes in France, so they would seem to contradict the
>>definitions.
>>
>>So...
>>Is the above dictionary definition "wrong"?
>
>An etang IS a pond, but the dictionnaire Bordas adds, "Certaines
>lagunes sont aussi appelees etangs (par ex. les etangs qui borde la
>cote du Languedoc." So there you are.
>
>I see that the key is the etymology: the word is cognate with
>"stagnant". So the use of the word for a lagoon as well as a pond
>seems appropriate.

I believe this meaning of "etang" must be older, and only left in proper
names. I have lived in Sete, bordering the "Etang de Thau", and noticed
people write "Etang" instead of "etang" when referring to it. In other
words, they consider it as a proper name.

BTW, Vaccares and Berre are not in Languedoc. Vaccares is in Camargue
(which is Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur for the administration, but
consider a region in itself by the people), and Berre is in Provence.
Thau is in Languedoc, however.

Stephane Di Cesare

Lund University - Computational Linguistics Student
Sweden

dmark@acsu.buffalo.edu (David Mark) writes:

|>  I have a question.  I finally managed to find a French dictionary 
|>  in a store over here-- not a French-English dictionary, but a 
|>  French-French dictionary, words and their meanings.  I was surprised to 
|>  find <<etang>> defined as:
|>  
|>  etendue d'eau moins vaste et moins profunde qu'un lac
|>  
|>  (yes, I realize that the initial 'e's in etang and etendue have accents 
|>  over them...)
|>  
|>  ... "extent of water smaller and less deep than a lake"
|>  
|>  very much like the definition of "pond" in English.
|>  
|>  Anyway, my question is how to explain "Etang de Berre", "Etang de Vaccares", 
|>  et tout les autres etangs grandes de Languedoc??  These are actually much
|>  larger than typical lakes in France, so they would seem to contradict the
|>  definitions.

|>  So...
|>  Is the above dictionary definition "wrong"?
|>  or
|>  Are the coastal etangs of the south exceptions that are too unusual to be 
|>  mentioned in a small, standard dictionary?
|>  or
|>  Are there two kinds of water body that are called "etang" in French, the 
|>  small pond-like ones and the large lagoon-like ones?
|>  or
|>  Are the Langeguedoc etangs wrongly named?  
|>  (If so, I can imagine a picture of "Etang de Vaccares" with a sign, "Ce 
|>  n'est pas un etang", homage a Rene Magritte...)

Well, most of them are certainly less deep than any of the alpine
lakes:-).  (I'm not sure about the Etang de Berre, though.)  My Petit
Robert says "generallement moins vaste, moins profond qu'un lac."  (Note
the "generallement".)

Two possibilities (just guessing): one is that this usage might be
regional (southern France), and the other is that the bodies of water in
question are very recent, and originally were only the size of a pond.
Or maybe that the size is considered relative to the neighboring body of
water -- they are much smaller than the Mediteranean.


-- 
James Kanze    +33 (0)1 39 23 84 71    mailto: kanze@gabi-soft.fr
GABI Software, 22 rue Jacques-Lemercier, 78000 Versailles, France
Conseils en informatique orient�e objet --
              -- Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung

Salut!

I'm a frenchie and I think that the answer is quite simple:
an " �tang" is a pond with stagnant water.
a " lac " is a lake,  the water comes from a river or a spring.
That's all!!!
{:]]

" One ring to find them all..."

On 25 Jan 1998 22:52:20 +0100, kanze@gabi-soft.fr (J. Kanze) wrote:

>Well, most of them are certainly less deep than any of the alpine
>lakes:-).  (I'm not sure about the Etang de Berre, though.)  My Petit
>Robert says "generallement moins vaste, moins profond qu'un lac."  (Note
>the "generallement".)

I think the Etang de Vaccares is actually the second largest lake in
France...
They are probably not very deep, as they are close to the sea.

>Two possibilities (just guessing): one is that this usage might be
>regional (southern France), and the other is that the bodies of water in
>question are very recent, and originally were only the size of a pond.

Being from the area, I don't think it is a regional usage (at least
nowadays).
Concerning the Etang de Thau, it is artificial, it is a consequence of
linking Sete to land under Louis XIV. Sete was an island before. It is
in fact the part of the sea which is inside land.

Stephane Di Cesare

Lund University - Computational Linguistics Student
Sweden

if an "etang" is usually a pond , in this case it is a  " coastal pond".
this is the d�finition (in french ) of the "dictionnaire de la geographie"
P.George PUF:
"... Les etangs cotiers sont separes par la mer par un cordon littoral ou un
cordon de dunes"
David Mark a �crit dans le message
<6adgb2$fh3$1@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>...

cie96sdc@student2.lth.se (Stephane Di Cesare) writes:

|>  On 25 Jan 1998 22:52:20 +0100, kanze@gabi-soft.fr (J. Kanze) wrote:
|>  
|>  >Well, most of them are certainly less deep than any of the alpine
|>  >lakes:-).  (I'm not sure about the Etang de Berre, though.)  My Petit
|>  >Robert says "generallement moins vaste, moins profond qu'un lac."  (Note
|>  >the "generallement".)
|>  
|>  I think the Etang de Vaccares is actually the second largest lake in
|>  France...
|>  They are probably not very deep, as they are close to the sea.
|>  
|>  >Two possibilities (just guessing): one is that this usage might be
|>  >regional (southern France), and the other is that the bodies of water in
|>  >question are very recent, and originally were only the size of a pond.
|>  
|>  Being from the area, I don't think it is a regional usage (at least
|>  nowadays).
|>  Concerning the Etang de Thau, it is artificial, it is a consequence of
|>  linking Sete to land under Louis XIV. Sete was an island before. It is
|>  in fact the part of the sea which is inside land.

Yes.  In the case of coastal "etang", I would probably use the word
lagune in English, but certainly not pond.  I've always associated the
word with stagner (English stagnate), which would associate it with
water that wasn't moving: a pond as opposed to a river, but a lagune as
opposed to a sea with tides (except that the Mediteranean doesn't have
tides, at least to speak of).

Le Petit Robert also mentions that it has a "fond etanche".

-- 
James Kanze    +33 (0)1 39 23 84 71    mailto: kanze@gabi-soft.fr
GABI Software, 22 rue Jacques-Lemercier, 78000 Versailles, France
Conseils en informatique orient�e objet --
              -- Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung

J. Kanze wrote:
> 
> Yes.  In the case of coastal "etang", I would probably use the word
> lagune in English, but certainly not pond.  I've always associated the
> word with stagner (English stagnate), which would associate it with
> water that wasn't moving: a pond as opposed to a river, but a lagune as
> opposed to a sea with tides (except that the Mediteranean doesn't have
> tides, at least to speak of).
> 

In English it's "lagoon", borrowed from French or Italian in the later 
17th century (first attestation 1673). It's curious that the spelling 
didn't come in with the word. Is there maybe something Celtic it got 
attracted to?
-- 
Peter T. Daniels					grammatim@worldnet.att.net

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.com> wrote:

>J. Kanze wrote:
>> 
>> Yes.  In the case of coastal "etang", I would probably use the word
>> lagune in English, but certainly not pond.  I've always associated the
>> word with stagner (English stagnate), which would associate it with
>> water that wasn't moving: a pond as opposed to a river, but a lagune as
>> opposed to a sea with tides (except that the Mediteranean doesn't have
>> tides, at least to speak of).
>> 
>
>In English it's "lagoon", borrowed from French or Italian in the later 
>17th century (first attestation 1673). It's curious that the spelling 
>didn't come in with the word. Is there maybe something Celtic it got 
>attracted to?

Might it be an incorrect analogy with "balloon", "saloon", "doubloon"?

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In article <34d73ed5.334499123@news.clark.net>,
Harlan Messinger <gusty@clark.net@remove.this.part.before.sending> wrote:
>"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.com> wrote:
>
>>J. Kanze wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes.  In the case of coastal "etang", I would probably use the word
>>> lagune in English, but certainly not pond.  I've always associated the
>>> word with stagner (English stagnate), which would associate it with
>>> water that wasn't moving: a pond as opposed to a river, but a lagune as
>>> opposed to a sea with tides (except that the Mediteranean doesn't have
>>> tides, at least to speak of).
>>> 
>>
>>In English it's "lagoon", borrowed from French or Italian in the later 
>>17th century (first attestation 1673). It's curious that the spelling 
>>didn't come in with the word. Is there maybe something Celtic it got 
>>attracted to?
>
>Might it be an incorrect analogy with "balloon", "saloon", "doubloon"?

Another part of the puzzle is, if it came from French, why is "lagoon" in
English now used for two rather different kinds of features, the tropical
lagoon inside the coar reef, and the coastal lagoons formed when a bar closes 
off a bay.  Whereas I understand that modern French uses "lagune" only
for the tropical coral kind.  So, did the usage broaden as it came into
english, or has it narrowed in French since 1673?  Or, did it come from
Italian?  Etymologically, 'lagune' seems obviously to come from the 
old Indoeuropean lac/lake/loch root for a water body, and 'etang' is from
the same root as 'stagnant'.

David Mark
dmark@geog.buffalo.edu

In article <6adgb2$fh3$1@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>
dmark@acsu.buffalo.edu (David Mark) writes:
 
>  I was surprised to  find <<etang>> defined as:
>etendue d'eau moins vaste et moins profunde qu'un lac
>... "extent of water smaller and less deep than a lake"
>very much like the definition of "pond" in English.
>Is the above dictionary definition "wrong"?  or
>Are the coastal etangs of the south exceptions that are too unusual to be
>mentioned in a small, standard dictionary?
 
As a comparable case in English, take a look at Walden Pond, near Concord
MA.  In FL that would easily pass as a lake.
 
                                   John
 
Ki semenat ispinaza, non andet iskultsu!
 
J. A. Rea                                     jarea@ukcc.uky.edu

J. A. Rea wrote:
> 
> As a comparable case in English, take a look at Walden Pond, near Concord
> MA.  In FL that would easily pass as a lake.

And look at all the ponds that Minnesota has to count in order to be 
the Land of 10,000 Lakes!

(Whereas there are lots more than 1000 islands in the Thousand Islands 
of upstate New York/southern Ontario.)
-- 
Peter T. Daniels					grammatim@worldnet.att.net

Ross Clark wrote:
> 
> This is confusing enough already, but I thought I'd point out that there
> is another French word, "lagon". My Petit Robert says its an 18th century
> borrowing from Spanish lag�n. If this were the immediate source of
> the English word, it would better account for both pronunciation and
> spelling (compare dragoon, cocoon, etc.). The Robert entries for the two
> French words are interesting -- it looks like one of those pairs of words
> that lexicographers feel ought to have some clear difference of meaning,
> but where usage is just hopelessly inconsistent:
> 

The 10th Collegiate says lagoon < Fr. & It. (resp. lagune, laguna) -- 
that "&" is most peculiar! -- attested 1673, suggesting that the 
18th-c. lagon is too late to be relevant. I can't find my American 
Heritage!

Random House 2nd ed. (where the etymologies were done by a platoon of 
Chicago grad students reporting to Eric Hamp) has a rather different 
story: 1605-15; earlier laguna (sing.), lagune (pl.) < It < L lacuna, 
-ae ditch, pool ...

That sent me to the OED, which has the earlier stuff ... so what were 
the Merriam-Webster people thinkin'?
-- 
Peter T. Daniels					grammatim@worldnet.att.net

David Mark wrote:
> 
> In article <34d73ed5.334499123@news.clark.net>,
> Harlan Messinger <gusty@clark.net@remove.this.part.before.sending> wrote:
> >"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.com> wrote:
> >
> >>J. Kanze wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Yes.  In the case of coastal "etang", I would probably use the word
> >>> lagune in English, but certainly not pond.  I've always associated the
> >>> word with stagner (English stagnate), which would associate it with
> >>> water that wasn't moving: a pond as opposed to a river, but a lagune as
> >>> opposed to a sea with tides (except that the Mediteranean doesn't have
> >>> tides, at least to speak of).
> >>>
> >>
> >>In English it's "lagoon", borrowed from French or Italian in the later
> >>17th century (first attestation 1673). It's curious that the spelling
> >>didn't come in with the word. Is there maybe something Celtic it got
> >>attracted to?
> >
> >Might it be an incorrect analogy with "balloon", "saloon", "doubloon"?
> 
> Another part of the puzzle is, if it came from French, why is "lagoon" in
> English now used for two rather different kinds of features, the tropical
> lagoon inside the coar reef, and the coastal lagoons formed when a bar closes
> off a bay.  Whereas I understand that modern French uses "lagune" only
> for the tropical coral kind.  So, did the usage broaden as it came into
> english, or has it narrowed in French since 1673?  Or, did it come from
> Italian?  Etymologically, 'lagune' seems obviously to come from the
> old Indoeuropean lac/lake/loch root for a water body, and 'etang' is from
> the same root as 'stagnant'.
> 
> David Mark
> dmark@geog.buffalo.edu


This is confusing enough already, but I thought I'd point out that there 
is another French word, "lagon". My Petit Robert says its an 18th century 
borrowing from Spanish lag�n. If this were the immediate source of 
the English word, it would better account for both pronunciation and 
spelling (compare dragoon, cocoon, etc.). The Robert entries for the two 
French words are interesting -- it looks like one of those pairs of words 
that lexicographers feel ought to have some clear difference of meaning, 
but where usage is just hopelessly inconsistent:


LAGON   1. Petit lac d'eau sal�e, lagune peu profonde entre la terre et 
un r�cif corallien, par les br�ches duquel p�n�tre la mar�e.
	2. (Abusiv) Lagune centrale d'un atoll.

LAGUNE	1. Etendue d'eau de mer, comprise entre la terre ferme et un 
cordon littoral (lido), g�n�ralement perc� de passes (graus).
	2. Etendue d'eau central d'un atoll (parfois confondu avec 
		lagon).


So: The water inside a coastal sand-bar (as at Venice) is a lagune.
    The water inside a fringing coral reef is a lagon (but the definition	
	  describes it as a "shallow lagune"!).
    And the water surrounded by an atoll is either a lagune or a lagon, 
	though Robert judges the latter to be incorrect.

On with the fun!

Ross Clark