🚀 go-pugleaf

hhyapster@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 15, 3:00 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...@b.c> wrote:
>> hhyaps...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> First you must realize that atoms are materials, existed in this real
>>> world, measurable, detectable even when we can't see them.
>>> Your god is an "imaginary" thing...nothing real and not measurable,
>>> not detectable, not even believable.
>> Now that is where you are wrong.
>>
>> Atoms do not exist in the material world: they exist in a conceptual
>> space in principle no different to his God.
>>
>> Like his god, they are noumenous hypotheses. *Unlike* his God, they are
>> sufficiently precisely defined to be tested, and have not failed the
>> tests *so far*.
>>
>> That means that unlike biblical prophecies, the equations that govern
>> their behaviour - or describe them, if you prefer - CAN be used to
>> predict the future with an alarmingly high degree of accuracy and in
>> considerable detail. In specific areas anyway.
>>
>> In the final analysis, God is an *emotional* explanation, atoms are a
>> scientific and technical one.
>>
>> The purpose of the god explanation is to make people *feel better*. Like
>> any placebo, it need not be based on anything that is real in a material
>> or indeed scientific sense.
>>
>>>> Gordon


> No, Philosopher, atoms are real and bonded to form material.

No, they are constructs. As in fact is 'material' itself.

solidity is according to quanutm physics, an illusion ;-)



> The conceptual existence is the electrons which does not stay in a
> respective space.

Not at all. Atoms and electrons cane equally be 'detected' by using 
cathode ray tubes, bubble chambers. electron microscopes and the like..

Its important to recognise that the only actual reality is what lies 
behind our perceptions, and our memory of them. Without memory there is 
no time...perceptually..

we sense the world that we assume lies around us, as a data stream of 
various impulses that get *interpreted* into something that becomes the 
world we recognise: none of this is real at the point of perception, its 
all a construct.

The fact that it works pretty well, is perhaps strong evidence that it 
correlates to something that IS real pretty closely, but its not 
overwhelming proof.

Oh, and if you want to know where God lives in all that..look into the 
perceptual process itself. Deus, in this case is definitely IN Machina..;-)

Something exists (in?) us that definitely is a Creator, and does indeed 
bring Order of perception out of the Chaos..of sensation.

You would probably call it something like consciousness.  and indeed it 
DOES have a personal connection ..and is amenable to manipulation by 
ritual, prayer and other typically 'religious' techniques. And indeed it 
can completely transform the way you see the world..in fact that seems 
to be its only function ;-)

Which is why I have much sympathy for religion *as a way to frig with 
the human operating system*. BUT you don't need to 'believe in God' to 
use it that way. Although Faith, as an ACTIVITY, has its uses.

There is not actually 'real' and 'not real' More, there is a hierarchy 
extending from the most numinous concepts down to the reality of our 
sensations,which is about as close to fact as we can ever get. Normal 
perception of the world is at least two steps removed from *sensation* 
of it though.

Only those whose normal perceptions have not been developed or 
socialised - typically 'small children' or those whose perceptions are 
severely disrupted by trauma, (mental) illness, or deliberate 
steps..drugs, fasting, deep meditation and the like..are in a position 
to actually go a step closer..and 'enter the kingdom of heaven' etc blah 
blah.

A process, the return from which is akin to being reborn...

So when I read 'except as ye become as little children, ye shall not 
enter the kingdom of heaven' it makes perfect sense to me. Likewise the 
myth of death and rebirth. Its the stock in trade of all shamanic 
traditions..the descent to the underworld where some powerful spirit 
re-makes the body of the shaman etc.

Also eternity: if you knock out the perceptual processes that are to do 
with memory, you will exist in a timeless instant present. If you knock 
out most of the interpretive process, you will end up in a state of 
blissful innocence.

I have always had a sneaking suspicion that the story of rip Van Winkle 
is an allegorical reference..

If you remove the social aspects of religion, what is left is remarkably 
similar in all traditions: A set of ways to change consciousness, and 
some lessons derived from so doing. And usually some fairly strange 
powers associated with those who *can* do so.

Yu can even chart the rise of the god concept - originally nature 
spirits, that are actually analogues of what we would call 'natural 
laws' ..then gods of emotional and mental states - the greek pantheon 
being more or less that..and finally monotheism,which at least makes the 
point that all of these are aspects of one thing. You would call it 
'consciousness': I call it something different, but that's because of my 
personal history.









> So are the sub-atomic particles.