🚀 go-pugleaf

Deterministic, semantically, implies that regardless of it's origins, it's
state at any given time can be traced forward indeffinitely.

Pre-determined, semantically, implies that there was purpose behind that
creation, and often can be taken to mean that there is also a purpose to
it's fate.

Pre-Determination is a theological debate.  Determination is a
quantum-physics debate.

For instance, the old argument between Einstein and Bohr... "God does not
play dice with the universe"... Einstein firmly believed, to the day he
died, that the universe was indeed determintic.  If two electrons collided a
certain way, that was the only way they COULD have collided.  Sort of a
Cartesian model of the universe - the idea that if you know the state and
activity of everything, then you can predict everything that will happen.
Bohr, on the other hand, believed firmly in the Uncertainty Principal... the
idea that you simply CAN'T know the state of subatomic particles to any
complete degree, regardless of what you do, and that there is no
deterministic model to predict much of anything.

Gramattically, they mean the same thing.  Semantically, there's a world of
difference.

--
"S D Rodrian" <sdr@sdrodrian.com> wrote in message
news:bf7b874e.0111200841.4d420ea8@posting.google.com...
> "Laurent" <e.duchesne@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:<JtjK7.118625$WW.7426738@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
> > A deterministic Universe is not the same thing as a pre-determined
> > Universe.
>
> Dear Laurent, every day I see otherwise perfectly reasonable
> persons who permit "mere rhetoric" to twist their reason until
> their every thought and word is utter gibberish (and if this
> is true in the case of words, imagine how much more so it is
> in the case of persons who speak in numbers): Please step back
> and reconsider your statement above:
>
> You are saying, in effect, that "a railroad line which goes from A
> to B is not the same as a railroad line which, from A leads to B."
>
> Yes it is! EVERYTHING in a "deterministic universe"
> has been DETERMINED from its beginning, and its beginnings
> PRE-determine() its EVERYTHING. Simple as that.
>
> PLEASE do not allow mere verbiage to confuse you into the
> belief that simple, plain, straightforward reality is
> something more than simple, plain, straightforward reality!
>
> There are MANY, MANY, MANY quick-talking persons out there
> who can come upon you, there where you stand certain you are
> a man... and leave you wondering whether you might not be
> some sor of piglet AFTER ALL.
>
> Every last one of us has been endowed by sheer animal evolution
> with an instinctive knowledge of the difference between "that
> which might possibly be real and "that which can NEVER be real
> under ANY circumstances" ... and yet most of us are talked into
> the idiotic belief that ghosts, gods, and goblins good/bad are
> frolicking all around us in their pajamas!
>
> And yet... do not "so glibly" turn your back on that inheritance  *
> given you by any number of billions of years of countless of your
> ancestors' painfully cracking their skulls wide open just merely
> in order to leave you as their biological legacy the instinctive
> knowledge that "stone walls beat flesh & blood."
>
> S D Rodrian
> http://sdr.0catch.com/
> http://physics.sdrodrian.com
>
> * These sorts of split infinitives are an ancient trick of rhetoric
> to make the statement stand out by making it somewhat oddly-sounding.
>
> re:
>
> > "SDR" <sdrodrian@sdrodrian.com> wrote in message
> > news:58087ec7.0110221826.4f4ea265@posting.google.com...
> > > artnpeg@mindsprong.com (Art Kopp) wrote in message
> > >  news:<3bd406ff.3539645@news.mindspring.com>...
> > > > On 22 Oct 2001 01:22:45 -0700, rodrian@sdrodrian.com (SDR)
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > >> SDR, do you believe that your future and the future of all
> > > > >>  things is
> > > > >> predetermined?
>
> > > > >Absolutely.
>
> > > > Ever heard of random event generators (REGs)?
> > > > Art
>
> > > Ever heard of if you pick which hand it's in it's yours
> > > ( IYPWHIIIs )? Art, I will quote myself:
>
> > > > There
> > > > IS evidence that different "effects" may follow identical
> > > > "causes," or
> > > > at least arrangments of matter that would appear to be
> > > > identical insofar as we can distinguish.
>
> > > I'm glad you flooded that dazed statement with qualifiers:
> > > There "are" indeed many "experiments" which "suggest" uncaused
> > > effects. The problem with ALL these "experiments" is that the
> > > "experimenters" NEVER quite can know HOW unpredictability was
> > > produced! [Do you see the problem: IF they know HOW it was
> > > produced... that, by definition, would remove any notion that
> > > there was any unpredictability at all involved with their work!
>
> > > So ONLY "experiments" in which it yet remains unknown how
> > > unpredictability was produced can EVER produce results which
> > > "demonstrate" such unpredictability! Or, really... forget
> > > about it, boy: Try finding out what women really want instead.
> > > I hear lots of grant money's chasing after that.] And so
> > > I stand by my old mantra: KNOWLEDGE ALWAYS PROVES DETERMINISM
> > > ... ALWAYS! (This means that "they" will always assume
> > > indeterminism from imperfect knowledge, by the way (in case
> > > you were sleeping when this paragraph started): A perhaps
> > > slightly more telling restatement of the same thing.) I'm
> > > an old geezer, and I've seen these "experiments" being
> > > "perpetrated" now for a long time... all the way back to when
> > > they involved only a hat and a couple of rabbits.
>
> > > "Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo." (The devil's
> > > wiser for being as old as he is than for being the devil he is.
> > >                                ---Old Spanish saying.)
>
> > > Again: ALWAYS USE YOUR BRAIN. Or, if you know the full extent
> > > of your brain: ALWAYS USE THE BRAINS OF SOMEBODY WHO'S GOT SOME.
>
> > > S D Rodrian
> > > sdrodrian.com
> > > web.sdrodrian.com
> > > http://members.aol.com/bookspine